Boat seized and owner left homeless and sleeping in a car.

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, matty40s said:

CRT should NOT be using S8 to enforce, that is something Nigel spent years addressing, and has led to BW and CRT having to pay millions in compensation to some of the Brentford victims of Shoosmiths bullying tactics.

Tony is of the same ilk, and CRT may well have won a battle, but lose the war, as using the excuse that someone doesnt have a licence (after removing or refusing the licence for some reason, or the boat not actually needing a licence, just a registration)to remove a boat by use of force, is wrong.

If CRT actually maintained the navigation depths and channel they are supposed to, they might have more of a case, but the Trent is woefully short of depth in some areas now....and is only going to get worse.

Tony is down to earth, helpful, and has been wronged more than once by CRT recently, just because they wont stop until they have won. Hopefully this will end up testing a point of law, and not just an out of court settlement which CRT are so fond of once somebody stands up to them.

 

There will only be one lady toasting this news with her Budweiser tonight.

With you, till the last line, which wasn't in any way required.

 

If you had left that out it would have been a really good post.

 

MJG/Doghouse.

 

You choose.

Edited October 28, 2020 by The Happy Nomad

[mrsmelly]

12 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

With you, till the last line, which wasn't in any way required.

 

If you had left that out it would have been a really good post.

 

MJG/Doghouse.

 

You choose.

I did wonder about the last line but did give a greenie for the rest of the post.

[Arthur Marshall]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Or so CRT will have you believe!

I must admit I was relying on Nigel Moore's explanation. Nowt to do with CRT.

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, matty40s said:

CRT should NOT be using S8 to enforce, that is something Nigel spent years addressing, and has led to BW and CRT having to pay millions in compensation to some of the Brentford victims of Shoosmiths bullying tactics.

Tony is of the same ilk, and CRT may well have won a battle, but lose the war, as using the excuse that someone doesnt have a licence (after removing or refusing the licence for some reason, or the boat not actually needing a licence, just a registration)to remove a boat by use of force, is wrong.

Whether it is right or wrong in anyone's moral judgement is sadly irrelevant to the law. This is primarily written to protect property and property owners, and the more property you have, the more likely you are to win your case. The law says, no licence, no boat. And CRT have the right in law to refuse a licence.

This though isn't Tony's case, it's the crucial fact that no River Licence is enshrined in law while the Registration is. He's right. However, I suspect the law will agree with CRT that they are de facto the same thing, that the vat issue is irrelevant, that Tony should have got his BSS and not played silly buggers with the exemption, and that CRT were within their rights to take his boat.

Whether we think all this is morally right or wrong just doesn't matter.

Halbert's barmy decisions and statements are also irrelevant as in that court, they don't set precedents and aren't binding on anyone else, which is lucky as to anyone with half a brain they are (in accordance with the great tradition of judges) obvious nonsense. It's pointless quoting them.

[Naughty Cal]

14 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The last few weeks whikst in the marina we have been virtully 100% electric.

 

Cooked with 230v (Air fryers)

230v Toaster for breakfast toast and lunchtime Pikelets.

Hot water with 230v (Immersion heater)

Heating with 230v (Oil filled radiators and fan heaters) But we did occasionally use the Eber for a quick blast Morning or night.

Battery charging 230v battery charger

230v electric kettle for Tea / Coffee.

 

12v lights, pumps and Eber powered by 12v batteries, charged by 230v battery charger.

 

Cost about £2 per day.

 

Did have to 'manage' the demand, ie switching off the electric heaters whilst running the Air-Fryers, or boiling the kettle but most of our 'stuff' is low wattage camping equipment. Kettle and toaster are both 900w so take a while but get the job done.

How did the 12v power get from your batteries to the lights and heating?

 

Via a system that on CRT waters requires a safety test by any chance?

 

ETA: I am intrigued as to what meals you cooked wholly in the air fryer as well. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Naughty Cal

[Naughty Cal]

9 hours ago, matty40s said:

CRT should NOT be using S8 to enforce, that is something Nigel spent years addressing, and has led to BW and CRT having to pay millions in compensation to some of the Brentford victims of Shoosmiths bullying tactics.

Tony is of the same ilk, and CRT may well have won a battle, but lose the war, as using the excuse that someone doesnt have a licence (after removing or refusing the licence for some reason, or the boat not actually needing a licence, just a registration)to remove a boat by use of force, is wrong.

If CRT actually maintained the navigation depths and channel they are supposed to, they might have more of a case, but the Trent is woefully short of depth in some areas now....and is only going to get worse.

Tony is down to earth, helpful, and has been wronged more than once by CRT recently, just because they wont stop until they have won. Hopefully this will end up testing a point of law, and not just an out of court settlement which CRT are so fond of once somebody stands up to them.

 

There will only be one lady toasting this news with her Budweiser tonight.

Don't be daft. It was Wednesday. No drinking in the week.

 

Despite what you may think I am not heartless. I may not see eye to eye with Tony on many things but would never wish for an old man and his dog to find themselves homeless over winter and Christmas especially not in the current circumstances with Covid doing the rounds as well.

 

I hope he manages to find a comfortable home this winter. 

 

 

[magnetman]

10 hours ago, matty40s said:

CRT should NOT be using S8 to enforce, that is something Nigel spent years addressing, and has led to BW and CRT having to pay millions in compensation to some of the Brentford victims of Shoosmiths bullying tactics.

 

Millions? 

 

I spoke to Nigel about this a couple of years ago. Yes he got several boaters refunds on their moorings which BW / CRT actually were not allowed to be charging for. It was about half a dozen boats I think. 

 

Doesn't seem like millions of pounds there to me... And not all of these boat owners were entirely happy. Some of them were happy to be paying, perhaps because it added an extra layer of legitimacy to what are slightly unusual moorings.

 

 

[boots]

Installed does not mean fixed, if my understanding is correct, installed can mean ‘connect for use’, ‘place in position’ - of course that doesn’t necessarily mean it is how the BSS interprets it

[Athy]

10 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

With you, till the last line, which wasn't in any way required.

 

 

...or, probably, understood by most of us. To whom does it refer?

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

How did the 12v power get from your batteries to the lights and heating?

 

Via a system that on CRT waters requires a safety test by any chance?

 

I was respnding to a post by Magnetman - nothing to do with the BSS

 

It is entirely feasible, although I would not fancy it, to heat, light and provide cooking facilities on a boat using just AC power.

 

 

1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

I am intrigued as to what meals you cooked wholly in the air fryer as well. 

You should try one. Do some research

You can roast, fry, bake, boil & defrost,

 

You can do a full "Sunday Lunch", Fish & Chips, bake a cake, etc etc.

 

The most (never discussed) useful cooking appliance..

 

We actually have 3 of them - one lives on the boat, one lives at home and one goes wherever we go.

Since I was given less than a year to live unless 'I changed' and lost 5 stone in weight (with Blood sugar at 30+and Chloresterol at 18) We pretty much use nothing else at home for 'healthy eating' as it cooks with no fat or oil.

 

Both blood sugars and Chloresterol now well below 'normal'.

 

[doratheexplorer]

59 minutes ago, Athy said:

...or, probably, understood by most of us. To whom does it refer?

I'm relatively new to this forum.  I joined after Tony was kicked off.  Even to me it was obvious, and evidently to her too.  Looking at some old threads, the impression is get is that they frequently clashed over tide times etc on the Trent, and more often than not, Tony's far greater experience gave the far more convincing argument.

55 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I was respnding to a post by Magnetman - nothing to do with the BSS

 

It is entirely feasible, although I would not fancy it, to heat, light and provide cooking facilities on a boat using just AC power.

 

 

You should try one. Do some research

You can roast, fry, bake, boil & defrost,

 

You can do a full "Sunday Lunch", Fish & Chips, bake a cake, etc etc.

 

The most (never discussed) useful cooking appliance..

 

We actually have 3 of them - one lives on the boat, one lives at home and one goes wherever we go.

Since I was given less than a year to live unless 'I changed' and lost 5 stone in weight (with Blood sugar at 30+and Chloresterol at 18) We pretty much use nothing else at home for 'healthy eating' as it cooks with no fat or oil.

 

Both blood sugars and Chloresterol now well below 'normal'.

 

I bought an air fryer.  Made chips in it.  They were so poor that I wouldn't even call them chips.  They come out sort of like sticks of boiled potato with a hardened outer.  Sent it back.  Well done anything who can put up with that for health reasons.  I'd rather have less chips.

Edited October 29, 2020 by doratheexplorer

[Murflynn]

21 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I'm relatively new to this forum.

 

your %age likes count is magnificent.              

Edited October 29, 2020 by Murflynn

[Athy]

24 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I'm relatively new to this forum.  I joined after Tony was kicked off.  Even to me it was obvious, and evidently to her too.  Looking at some old threads, the impression is get is that they frequently clashed over tide times etc on the Trent, and more often than not, Tony's far greater experience gave the far more convincing argument.

 

Ah, it's clicked, thank you.

[Naughty Cal]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I was respnding to a post by Magnetman - nothing to do with the BSS

 

It is entirely feasible, although I would not fancy it, to heat, light and provide cooking facilities on a boat using just AC power.

 

 

You should try one. Do some research

You can roast, fry, bake, boil & defrost,

 

You can do a full "Sunday Lunch", Fish & Chips, bake a cake, etc etc.

 

The most (never discussed) useful cooking appliance..

 

We actually have 3 of them - one lives on the boat, one lives at home and one goes wherever we go.

Since I was given less than a year to live unless 'I changed' and lost 5 stone in weight (with Blood sugar at 30+and Chloresterol at 18) We pretty much use nothing else at home for 'healthy eating' as it cooks with no fat or oil.

 

Both blood sugars and Chloresterol now well below 'normal'.

 

We have one at home and we use it a lot. But still struggling to see how you could cook a full meal in it!

 

A Sunday lunch isn't a sunday lunch without a Yorkshire pudding.

1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

I bought an air fryer.  Made chips in it.  They were so poor that I wouldn't even call them chips.  They come out sort of like sticks of boiled potato with a hardened outer.  Sent it back.  Well done anything who can put up with that for health reasons.  I'd rather have less chips.

Not sure what you did to your air fryer chips but ours come out great. Just like proper chips but without the fat content

 

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Naughty Cal

[Momac]

13 hours ago, matty40s said:

......the Trent is woefully short of depth in some areas now....and is only going to get worse.

I am afraid you are correct.  

Unfortunately greater rain , more frequent floods doesn't help as it moves material and promotes localised silting.  

Silting below the locks seems now to be an annual problem while not so long ago there was only an occasional issue.

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by MartynG

[doratheexplorer]

1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

We have one at home and we use it a lot. But still struggling to see how you could cook a full meal in it!

 

A Sunday lunch isn't a sunday lunch without a Yorkshire pudding.

Not sure what you did to your air fryer chips but ours come out great. Just like proper chips but without the fat content

 

 

The flavour of proper chips mainly comes from the fat!  Do you have any taste buds?

[Mike Todd]

18 hours ago, Ally said:

I only know what I have read here, about this case, and there have been some useful and interesting contributions,  some less so.

 

However I do remember TD from earlier days here, and don't believe he would challenge without at least one leg to stand on. 

 

I always feel extremely uncomfortable (to put it mildly and gently) however, when anyone is evicted from their boat. It is their home, most times owned outright. I feel it morally wrong a person can be evicted from an owned home, and made homeless, often with use of bullying tactics at the point of eviction. 

 

It seems there is doubt in this case, whether or not c&rt or TD are within their rights, and while a modicum of doubt is held, an individual should be able to retain their owned home. C&rt are (most of) our landlords, yes, but the majority own their own homes, so it can't fully be compared to house landlords evicting tenants,  who would normally be rent paying and not own the property. There needs to be an alternative mechanism that doesn't simply cause homelessness. 

 

Now I know, and understand the cry of "if one can do it, everyone will do it". Well, perhaps not. An amount, yes, and if it eventually is agreed in court that TD was within his rights, then there will need to be a change of thinking/regulation/ rights. But the vast majority of ownerboaters, abide by expectations, regulations and rules. Either way, I still can't accept a seizure of someone's home without right to recourse,  and the fact it is owned property, it surely cant be (or shouldn't be)  permanently seized. Does the owner have the right to sell and regain that value at least? I'm not certain on this. I have a nagging thought that c&rt seize and assume ownership,  but I'm uncertain currently  (I really have been away from the water far too long!)

I will keep up with this.

 

 

 

Not really the same as a freehold house. What you are arguing is more to do with owning not only the house but also the land on which it stands  unlike leasehold where the two are separately owned. TD, whatever else he might own, almost certainly does not own part of the Trent either directly or as riparian rights.

[Naughty Cal]

48 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

The flavour of proper chips mainly comes from the fat!  Do you have any taste buds?

Yes plenty of them. Do you if you can't taste the potato for the fat?

[Heartland]

This is certainly a volatile discussion, and clearly yet to be resolved. 

 

I do have a query that boaters might, or can, answer, and that is the location of where the boat was. According to previous posts, it seems to be on the Trent upstream of the Beeston Lock and cut. This section of waterway became part of the Trent Navigation once the act of 1783 enabled the making of a towpath, and the act of 1794 that led to improvements being made, such as the Beeston Cut. Such work assisted navigation on what had been a "free navigation" for much of the route to Gainsborough and the Humber. Ownership of this navigation changed with nationalisation to the Docks & Inland Waterways, British Transport Waterways, British Waterways and now the Canal & River Trust. Over time the river had been straightened, improved and dredged and whatever the present state, this is a river navigation and not a canal.

 

The river is subject to periods of flood and low water and whilst the canal sections provide a form of safe haven for narrowboats. the river section offers less protection. As noted the boat in question was un powered. In times of sudden flood (the Trent is known for this to happen), how safe would this craft be moored on the River Section. Talking about rights, certificates and the law offers little resistance against being hurled down stream and over Beeston Weir and with a potential of sinking the boat and attendant loss of life.

  

[Iain_S]

16 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But to repeat (again and again) there is no requirement in law to ever use that 'place' #

 

HHJ Halbert

 

A boat which has a home mooring is not required to be “bona fide” used for navigation throughout the period of the licence, but neither is it required to ever use its home mooring. The act requires that the mooring is available, it does not say it must be used. The guidelines also have this effect. The boat is still subject to the restriction that it must not stay in the same place for more than 14 days but there is nothing whatever to stop it being shuffled between two locations quite close together provided they are far enough apart to constitute different places. If those who are causing the overcrowding at popular spots have home moorings anywhere in the country the present regime cannot control their overuse of the popular spots. Such an owner could cruise to and fro along the Kennet & Avon canal near Bristol and the home mooring could be in Birmingham and totally unused.

One part of that which, as far as I know, has not been tested in tested in a Court is the meaning of "available". If a boat is on the Kennet and Avon near Bristol, is a mooring in Birmingham "available"?

It could also be argued that the definition of "available" is up to CaRT, as it is they who must be "satisfied".

[Athy]

14 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

One part of that which, as far as I know, has not been tested in tested in a Court is the meaning of "available". If a boat is on the Kennet and Avon near Bristol, is a mooring in Birmingham "available"?

 

Of course, because the boat isn't on it. Hence there is space for the boat to moor there.

We have a landing stage at the end of our garden. Our boat is moored on the Oxford Canal. But the garden mooring is available should we wish to use it.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Athy

[magnetman]

20 minutes ago, Heartland said:

This is certainly a volatile discussion, and clearly yet to be resolved. 

 

I do have a query that boaters might, or can, answer, and that is the location of where the boat was. 

52.892799,-1.234307

 

Shoot me if I'm wrong.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

A Sunday lunch isn't a sunday lunch without a Yorkshire pudding.

I must admit that is where Aunt Bessie comes in handy (we have a freezer on board)

 

And that is one of the reasons that we often have 2x on the go at the same time.

 

One can be doing SWMBOs Jacket potato and salad*, the other doing my Birds Eye chicken breast in tempura batter and chips.

 

Obviously - not in the fryer!! 

[Naughty Cal]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I must admit that is where Aunt Bessie comes in handy (we have a freezer on board)

 

And that is one of the reasons that we often have 2x on the go at the same time.

 

One can be doing SWMBOs Jacket potato and salad*, the other doing my Birds Eye chicken breast in tempura batter and chips.

 

Obviously - not in the fryer!! 

No veggies with your Yorkshire puddings?

 

As much as we use our air fryer there are certain meals it just can't do. It does have it's limitations and certainly would be of no use as a full time only cooking device.

 

Anyway we digress 

[doratheexplorer]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I must admit that is where Aunt Bessie comes in handy (we have a freezer on board)

 

And that is one of the reasons that we often have 2x on the go at the same time.

 

One can be doing SWMBOs Jacket potato and salad*, the other doing my Birds Eye chicken breast in tempura batter and chips.

 

Obviously - not in the fryer!! 

Frozen Yorkies?  No wonder you can't tell the difference between proper chips and air fried chips!  Bunch of savages on here!