Boat seized and owner left homeless and sleeping in a car.

[Jerra]

54 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

If it's morally OK to steal pennies, then it's morally OK to steal. Because as I said before, who draws the line?

Morally it would depend on how much harm the theft did to the person who was being stolen from.     Who draws the line?   The person being stolen from draws the line, they are the one suffering the loss.  if they shrug their shoulders and say "its only a pencil" then they are prepared to accept the theft.   On the other hand if they say "if they will steal pencils where will they stop, I'll fire them" that is again their decision.

[Arthur Marshall]

Just now, Athy said:

Yep.

I heard that story years ago, in the context of pushing the wheelbarrow over the border between West and East Berlin, which shows how long ago it was.

Nasrudin told it about donkeys!

[Athy]

2 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Nasrudin told it about donkeys!

"All them donkeys look the same to us".

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

That's exactly what it is. Perhaps firms find it cheaper to accept that some items "walk" than to employ security staff  to -prevent that happening.

I don't know if it is still so, but when a building contract was completed, all the tools used by the builders were "written off". Almost to the end of his life (he died in 2004), my Dad used the wheelbarrow which the builders had left on site after completing my parents' new home in 1963.

Its still the same today John worked for Kier and everything that wasn't used was dumped! John over the years has fitted out his boat and numerous houses and now his own house, he reasoned that he was saving the company money on disposal of the waste ?

[Arthur Marshall]

1 minute ago, Jerra said:

Morally it would depend on how much harm the theft did to the person who was being stolen from.     Who draws the line?   The person being stolen from draws the line, they are the one suffering the loss.  if they shrug their shoulders and say "its only a pencil" then they are prepared to accept the theft.   On the other hand if they say "if they will steal pencils where will they stop, I'll fire them" that is again their decision.

The action is taken by the thief. It cannot be either be moral or immoral depending on a third person's view - there may be several suffering the theft, some who think it matters and some who don't. You've just invented Schrödinger's Moral Code... Basically, we seem to be in agreement that there is no absolute right or wrong, and it follows therefore that whether one obeys a law or not is a personal choice based on one's own judgement. 

In Tony's case, the result will possibly end up decided by a court with which one could agree or disagree. In Kris' case, as he's unlikely to sue, he has to accept the status quo and that he has no cause to complain.

[Mike Todd]

2 hours ago, Athy said:

Many people who would not dream of stealing anything from an individual tend to differentiate between individuals and corporate bodies (such as their employers). My late father, an ostensibly highly respectable grammar school master, always had a stock of those old-fashioned hard-back exercise books at home, indeed I still use one of them as my personal telephone directory/ address book. Sometimes I take a book from the shelves in my study and find that inside the front cover there's the stamp of "Woodhouse Grammar School" or one of the other educational emporia at which he taught.

Yes, one used to see the same with library books. However, it is not, of itself, evidence of theft as many places sell off, or even give away, books no longer wanted. I used to have a number some of which already had such a stamp when I acquired them.

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Shaw or someone in a railway carriage to young woman: Would you sleep with me for a million quid? Well, I might... How about for a fiver? Sir, what do you think I am?

We've already settled that, now we're just haggling about the price.

 

If it's morally OK to steal pennies, then it's morally OK to steal. Because as I said before, who draws the line? The real reason that it's wrong to steal, and why the law is generally accepted as a good thing, is because everyone knows that if everyone felt free to half inch anything they wanted in the end no-one would have anything worth nicking. That, by the way, is why it used to be safe to leave your door unlocked and why it isn't now!

Morality is fine for those who can afford it. Mind you, it usually gives them an edge over those who can't.

In the instance that started this off, it is now the case that if you post something on the web, especially social media, without specifying usage restrictions, it's going to be borrowed as if it was public property. In effect, you've pinned your photo to a lamp post with a handy photocopier parked under it. You might not like it, but that's where we're at, which is why it was ok to post Kris' photo here. It's just the way it is. You put it out there for people to see, people see it, like it, share it. Your control goes the moment you post it. If you want an analogue comparison, it's why you never wrote confidential information on a postcard.

 

Does anyone know whether the original had a copyright notice or other claim to ownership?

 

Also interesting to consider the mechanism here and in many places of copying the original p9st when replying to it. Is this theft or is there an implied permission simply by posting where this a known feature?

[ditchcrawler]

56 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Morally it would depend on how much harm the theft did to the person who was being stolen from.     Who draws the line?   The person being stolen from draws the line, they are the one suffering the loss.  if they shrug their shoulders and say "its only a pencil" then they are prepared to accept the theft.   On the other hand if they say "if they will steal pencils where will they stop, I'll fire them" that is again their decision.

Does steeling locks come into this ?

[Mike Todd]

58 minutes ago, Athy said:

Yep.

I heard that story years ago, in the context of pushing the wheelbarrow over the border between West and East Berlin, which shows how long ago it was.

I thought it was Wallsend Shipyard . . . 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Does anyone know whether the original had a copyright notice or other claim to ownership?

 

Also interesting to consider the mechanism here and in many places of copying the original p9st when replying to it. Is this theft or is there an implied permission simply by posting where this a known feature?

Another forum I use has a condition :

 

You agree to grant to xxxxxxxxx.com a non exclusive, royalty free, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual license to reproduce, distribute, transmit, sublicense, create derivative works of, publicly display, publish and perform any materials and other information you submit to any public areas, chat rooms, bulletin boards, newsgroups or forums of xxxxxxxxx.com or which you provide by email or any other means to xxxxxxxxx.com and in any media now known or hereafter developed. Further, you grant to xxxxxxxxx.com the right to use your name and or user name in connection with the submitted materials and other information as well as in connection with all advertising, marketing and promotional material related thereto, together with use on any other Second Media Corp. web sites. You agree that you shall have no recourse against Second Media Corp. for any alleged or actual infringement or misappropriation of any proprietary right in your communications to xxxxxxxxx.com.

[Ex Brummie]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

The only extraordinary thing about this post is that you still have a paper-based telephone / address book!

Such a book doesn't slip out of your pocket and into the canal when you reach down to fasten a reluctant press stud on your dodger. 

Guess how I know!!!!

[Jerra]

41 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Another forum I use has a condition :

 

You agree to grant to xxxxxxxxx.com a non exclusive, royalty free, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual license to reproduce, distribute, transmit, sublicense, create derivative works of, publicly display, publish and perform any materials and other information you submit to any public areas, chat rooms, bulletin boards, newsgroups or forums of xxxxxxxxx.com or which you provide by email or any other means to xxxxxxxxx.com and in any media now known or hereafter developed. Further, you grant to xxxxxxxxx.com the right to use your name and or user name in connection with the submitted materials and other information as well as in connection with all advertising, marketing and promotional material related thereto, together with use on any other Second Media Corp. web sites. You agree that you shall have no recourse against Second Media Corp. for any alleged or actual infringement or misappropriation of any proprietary right in your communications to xxxxxxxxx.com.

A very good move, always assuming people are posting their own material.   They know what they are agreeing to.   However I know a case where a person posted a photo of a ballerina on a site with such conditions and then complained when it was used in an advert. 

 

 They really should have read the T&Cs.

[matty40s]

1 minute ago, Jerra said:

A very good move, always assuming people are posting their own material.   They know what they are agreeing to.   However I know a case where a person posted a photo of a ballerina on a site with such conditions and then complained when it was used in an advert. 

 

 They really should have read the T&Cs.

It was more the fact that the ballerina herself was rather pi€€ed off at being told to retrain as a electronics software expert or bin woman.

 

[Jerra]

2 minutes ago, matty40s said:

It was more the fact that the ballerina herself was rather pi€€ed off at being told to retrain as a electronics software expert or bin woman.

 

Not according to the photographer, it was her I got the story from.  However I expect they were both pretty pissed off.   The model should assuming the photographer told her she would be putting in a photo library have signed a model release form and have no claim to the photo or its uses.  That is of course assuming the photographer was cating in a sensible and knowledgeable manner. 

[Arthur Marshall]

17 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Not according to the photographer, it was her I got the story from.  However I expect they were both pretty pissed off.   The model should assuming the photographer told her she would be putting in a photo library have signed a model release form and have no claim to the photo or its uses.  That is of course assuming the photographer was cating in a sensible and knowledgeable manner. 

When I was busking in the Albert Dock in Liverpool in full regalia, I got photgraphed by a pro. I only found out when I saw the result for sale in his gallery. I did check to see if I could get a few bob out of it, which I couldn't. I had my doubts that he put anything in the hat, either.

Probably different rules apply to a professional model, though.

[ditchcrawler]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

The only extraordinary thing about this post is that you still have a paper-based telephone / address book!

He keeps his credit card in it ?

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

He keeps his credit card in it ?

 

It's nestled alongside his ration book.

[Jerra]

21 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Probably different rules apply to a professional model, though.

The guiding principle is:

 

Knowing the intended use for the image is one way to know if you need a simple model release form. If you plan to use your work for commercial purposes, then you definitely need a model release form.

 

It doesn't matter if the model is professional or not.   The trouble is you would need to take legal action if the photographer wasn't prepared to play ball.

[Quattrodave]

31 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

When I was busking in the Albert Dock in Liverpool in full regalia, I got photgraphed by a pro. I only found out when I saw the result for sale in his gallery. I did check to see if I could get a few bob out of it, which I couldn't. I had my doubts that he put anything in the hat, either.

Probably different rules apply to a professional model, though.

IIRC if you're photographed in public there is very little you can do about it, having done a little photography a few years ago its polite to ask the subject but you don't have to.  I believe taking photos whilst in private is very different process...

Edited November 1, 2020 by Quattrodave
typo

[Jerra]

40 minutes ago, Quattrodave said:

IIRC if you're photographed in public there is very little you can do about it, having done a little photography a few years ago its polite to ask the subject but you don't have to.  I believe taking photos whilst in private is very different process...

I think you will find that is if you are part of the "street scene" but if, as in Tony's case, it is basically a portrait or shot of just you, as I understand it you need a release.

[Athy]

3 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Yes, one used to see the same with library books. However, it is not, of itself, evidence of theft as many places sell off, or even give away, books no longer wanted. I used to have a number some of which already had such a stamp when I acquired them.

This one still does - we have bought quite a few good books for small money at library withdrawn-stock sales.

[Jerra]

12 minutes ago, Athy said:

This one still does - we have bought quite a few good books for small money at library withdrawn-stock sales.

The library at the bottom of the road where my eldest daughter lives not only sells withdrawn stock it sells donated books.   I get most of my reading matter there, or did before the pandemic.

[Chewbacka]

2 hours ago, Jerra said:

I think you will find that is if you are part of the "street scene" but if, as in Tony's case, it is basically a portrait or shot of just you, as I understand it you need a release.

If that was the case, most “celebrity” photos where they are doing something in a public place they would like to keep secret would never get published.  Fair game in a public place.

[Paul Gwilliams]

7 hours ago, Athy said:

That however isn't theft as you say the builders had left the barrow.   

So you know who owns the barrow ? theft by finding then.

 

As to value "may as well be hung for a sheep than a lamb". Was the old saying. 

 

[Paul Gwilliams]

Philips used to have a warehouse at Sywell.

 

Apparently after a stocktake if they were overstocked on certain items they grew legs and went out the door with management's full knowledge.

 

My dad witnessed this once, and said it was one of the funniest things he saw with every sort of white goods and electrical products coming out the warehouse at home time.