Jump to content

Dilemma about surveyed boat


Featured Posts

50 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Backing out of the sale after signing a sale agreement can leave the seller liable for costs of the survey, depending on the contract.

I disagree - the sale has an agreed price "subject to survey" which allows the buyer to back out if the survey highlights things he is not happy with, or cost more than he is prepared to spend on the boat.

 

Remember this is a P to P transaction and not a B to B, or B to P transaction.

Caveat Emptor.

 

There is no obligation on the seller to offer to pay for anything the surveyor has highlighted , and there is certainly no obligation to pay for any costs the buyer has incurred.

 

It may be interesting for potential buyers have a look at the BMF Purchase Contract T&Cs (Most brokers are members of the BMF and operate under their rules).

 

If the seller doesn't want to either repair or deduct the cost of repairs from the pre-survey agreed price, then the seller returns the buyers deposit (if the costs of the identified repairs is more than 5% of the purchase price) and that's it, the contract is recinded -  'all over with'.

 

On a (say) £50,000 boat 5% would equate to £2500, so if it was found that the batteries needed replacing (£500), a water pump was leaking (£100) etc etc etc then the total value would fall under clause 1:1 and the buyer would not get either a reduced price, or, their deposit returned if they pulled out of the purchase.

 

1.      Defects

1.1. If the inspection, survey or sea trial reveals any major defects in the Vessel, its machinery, gear or equipment which affects the operational integrity of the Vessel or her systems or renders her unseaworthy, and such defect was not disclosed to the Purchaser in writing prior to the signing of this Agreement, or if there are any deficiencies in the inventory prepared and attached to this Agreement, for which the aggregate cost of rectification by a competent and reputable shipyard or replacements (on a like for like basis, discounted to second hand prices) is collectively equal to or exceeds 5 % of the Purchase Price then the Purchaser may give written notice to the Seller or the Broker within 7 days of completion of the inspection, survey and sea trial, whichever is the later, specifying the defects and/or deficiencies and including a copy of all relevant extracts from a surveyor’s or adviser’s report, and either:

 

1.1.1. reject the Vessel, or

1.1.2. require the Seller to make good the defects and/or deficiencies or make a sufficient reduction in the Purchase Price to enable the Purchaser to do so.  In this case all agreed items of work shall be completed without undue delay and shall be carried out to the express requirements contained in the Notice served by the Purchaser.

For the purposes of this Clause 5.1 and Clause 5.1.2 "completion of survey" shall mean the date of receipt by the Purchaser of a written or emailed survey report.

 

1.2. If the Purchaser serves notice under Clause 5.1.1, or Clause 5.1.2, and; 

1.2.1. the Seller fails within 21 days after service of the notice to agree to make good the defects or deficiencies specified in the notice without unreasonable delay or; 

1.2.2. the parties shall not have agreed within 14 days after service of the notice upon the amount by which the Purchase Price is to be reduced

THEN this Agreement shall be rescinded and the Deposit paid shall be refunded to the Purchaser in accordance with Clause 8.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I was recently selling a car that I had advertised at £2000 a potential buyer came, kicked the tyres and offered £800 so I said no thank you.

Is that an abridged version of your reply? If not, it showed commendable restraint.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Athy said:

Is that an abridged version of your reply? If not, it showed commendable restraint.

Nothing would be gained by shouting, screaming or ranting, it wouldn't make any difference to the outcome - he can make whatever offer he wants, and likewise I can reject any offer.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Nothing would be gained by shouting, screaming or ranting, it wouldn't make any difference to the outcome - he can make whatever offer he wants, and likewise I can reject any offer.

I wasn't advocating breaking the sound barrier, but many people would have rejected this "offer" in more emphatic terms.

As I said, commendable.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

Backing out of the sale after signing a sale agreement can leave the seller liable for costs of the survey, depending on the contract.

Clause 8 in the BMF contract may be of interest to you :

 

 

1.      Rescission

1.1. In the event of rescission by the Purchaser under the terms of this Agreement he shall, at his own expense, reinstate the Vessel to the condition and position in which he found it and shall pay all yard and surveyor’s charges for this work.  The Broker as agent for the Seller shall thereupon return the Deposit to the Purchaser without deduction and without interest save that the Broker shall be entitled to retain such part of the Deposit as is necessary to meet any yard or surveyor’s charges which may have been incurred by or at the request of the Purchaser but which have not been paid by the Purchaser.  Neither party shall thereafter have any claim against the other under this Agreement.

 

Note that a portion of the deposit may be witheld to cover the cost of re-instatement' of the boat (eg where the surveyor has removed blacking) and for payment of 'yard fees' for lift out etc

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

You are completely correct in what you say for that particular agreement, but I did say "depending on the contract."

 

Not all brokers use the standard BMF or RYA agreements though.

 

Agreed BMF only has 1500 (200 Broker) members, and I don't know how many brokers use RYA agreements, but there must be a few who do not use either.

 

Most of the main names on the Cut seem to be BMF - even the oft quoted Rugby Boat Sales is a BMF member.

 

Over 200 boat 'sellers & brokers' are members of the BMF

 

 

"Members of the British Marine Boat Retailers & Brokers, which includes over 200 marine businesses, include boat brokers and retailers, all of whom must adhere to the Boat Retailers & Brokers Code of Practice".

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

"Members of the British Marine Boat Retailers & Brokers, which includes over 200 marine businesses, include boat brokers and retailers, all of whom must adhere to the Boat Retailers & Brokers Code of Practice".

 

Adherence to the code of practice encourages but doesn't require use of the BMF contracts.

 

https://britishmarine.co.uk/-/media/BMF/Files-and-Documents/PDF/BRBA_Code_of_Practice_-Edition_3.pdf?la=en&hash=8E6FCED0CD7695C53E39A20FA577089A8A26ED7A

 

(My emphasis)

 

5. Contracts with Clients

  a. Contract Forms

 

  ii. Members are strongly encouraged to transact their business upon the British Marine standard form contracts and terms of business wherever practicable and should only depart from such terms in the case of contracts with consumer Clients where they are accepting an equivalent or higher standard of contractual responsibility toward the Client than provided by the standard form, or by the standard forms of other trade bodies relevant to the particular trade.

 

  iii. Members shall not trade upon edited or amended copies of the British Marine standard form contracts or Terms of Business without making the extent of such editing or amendment clear to the Client before entering into any contractual arrangements.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Interestingly, the AYBA code of conduct contains the following in the preamble:

 

Every Broker or New Boat Sales Member of the Association shall observe this Code of Practice in line with the Articles of Association of the ABYA and YBDSA. (“Member” includes Accredited, Full, Fellow and Honorary Members).

 

It should be noted that there are local variations to practices, particularly on the inland waterways.

 

https://abya.co.uk/media/1300/abya-code-of-practice.pdf

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Interestingly, the AYBA code of conduct contains the following in the preamble:

 

Every Broker or New Boat Sales Member of the Association shall observe this Code of Practice in line with the Articles of Association of the ABYA and YBDSA. (“Member” includes Accredited, Full, Fellow and Honorary Members).

 

It should be noted that there are local variations to practices, particularly on the inland waterways.

 

https://abya.co.uk/media/1300/abya-code-of-practice.pdf

 

All very relevant but to some extent irrelevant.

 

If a Broker has the boat you want to buy then you will have to comply with his T&Cs, be they RYA, BMF or ABYA

 

If you don't agree with the terms you probably won't be buying the boat.

 

Maybe the advice to newbies question "where can I buy a boat" should include the advice to check the brokers T&Cs to see if they are happy to trade on those terms.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not necessarily, you simply decide not to sell it for the offered price (thats not 'backing out')

 

I was recently selling a car that I had advertised at £2000 a potential buyer came, kicked the tyres and offered £800 so I said no thank you and he left. I didn't have another buyer lined up, but it was worth more than the offer so I refused.

If he had made a realistic offer you would have been more circumspect, £500 is small beans.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

All very relevant but to some extent irrelevant.

 

If a Broker has the boat you want to buy then you will have to comply with his T&Cs, be they RYA, BMF or ABYA

 

If you don't agree with the terms you probably won't be buying the boat.

 

Maybe the advice to newbies question "where can I buy a boat" should include the advice to check the brokers T&Cs to see if they are happy to trade on those terms.

That is really good advice. However, I wonder how many people fall in love with a boat and then take it on trust that a brokers' conditions will be fair and reasonable? We didn't buy our boat through a broker but I hold my hands up to ticking the "I have read the T&Cs box" on an online purchase when I haven't really. Saying that at least one is protected through the Distance Selling regulations when buying online, whereas there are precious few safeguards when buying through a broker.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, LadyG said:

Well, if the vendor backs out, it is because he has another buyer lined up, a buyer who is prepared to pay over the asking price, we are discussing 'negotiation', that means thebuyer has the leverage (his offer is attractive)otherwise, I could put my boat on the market for £70K, take the cash and buy back my flat , that I sold for "£50k", or even better buy a sailaway, widebeam  take it to London and sell it for £20k more.

It may be a sellers market, unlikely in winter, but that does not mean that there are no boats available at a reasonable price to someone who can pay today.

Re what 'test' does the surveyor aply? EXPERIENCE 

You have not read what the buyer has said as usual boats were selling before he even viewed them! Lots of others have said the same thing, telephone buyers without a survey taking from under them 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It pays to read the terms and conditions when buying a boat through a broker.

 

The initial buyer of our boat pulled out within 24 hours of paying their deposit. 

 

The reasons were nothing to do with the actual boat but more to do with not doing proper research into moorings and boat ownership.

 

His deposit was substantial and he lost it. There was a proportionate distribution between ourselves and the broker when our boat did sell a few weeks later.

 

The benefit for the guy who did buy it was that he got a decent boat at an ever better price because we were in a better position to accept a lower offer.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

All very relevant but to some extent irrelevant.

 

If a Broker has the boat you want to buy then you will have to comply with his T&Cs, be they RYA, BMF or ABYA

 

Which was precisely my original point, as you know all too well.

 

Read and understand any contract (even if you have to take paid legal advice) before signing it!

 

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Maybe the advice to newbies question "where can I buy a boat" should include the advice to check the brokers T&Cs to see if they are happy to trade on those terms.

 

No argument with that, it's very good advice.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
On 24/10/2020 at 10:57, frankling said:

Hello All

 

I wonder if anyone out there can offer some advice. My life has turned a bit upside down, and in the chaos, I decided to sell my house and go for a liveaboard. I've been reading about boats and looking at boats since about May, and a couple of weeks ago thought I'd found the one for me. I got massively overenthusiastic, had a survey done, and now am paralysed by indecision.

 

I'm too much of a newbie at all this, and think I may have rushed into making an offer and am making an expensive mistake. If anyone can offer advice to stop me from potentially making the mistake bigger and even more expensive, that would be fantastic!

 

The website didn't have all that much information about the boat, so I did ask supplemental questions. However, I never asked anything about the most crucial bit, the hull. I thought that most canal boats were 10/6/4 or 8/6/4, with Springers being thinner. Since this boat isn't a Springer, it never even dawned on me that the steel might be not be a standard thickness. However, when it was pulled out of the water and the surveyor went to look at it, he determined that the base plate was originally 6.6mm, the swim 6.5mm and the side plating 5.0mm. The boat now is 5.9-6.0mm swim, 4.9-5.0mm side plating.

 

Absolutely kicking myself, because the boat had had a survey in 2017, but I never asked to look at it, since it was three years old and I was planning to get my own survey done anyway, but of course the 2017 survey would have mentioned the thin steel, and then I think I would have got cold feet and walked away. The boat was built in 1998, is 45 feet, and is selling for £35,000, which I'm now thinking sounds a lot for a cheaply-built 22-year-old boat? What would you advise - is it more sensible to leave this boat alone and wait for something to come along with a higher-quality hull? Or are those steel thicknesses fine and dandy as long as I keep looking after it?

 

I feel really lost with this. My parents lived on a narrowboat for 15 or 20 years, but I paid no attention to anything apart from the stove and the kettle on their boat at the time, and they are now too old and too far away from their boat-ownership days to help. I'm also not a very practical person - no knowledge of engines etc - and don't really know anyone who is practical who can look at boats with me. £35,000 is the top end of the budget, and it is such a huge sum to me that I am in a complete dilemma on this one. I have to admit that my love-at-first-sight feeling was a gut feeling induced by the interior - it just felt like home when I stepped aboard - and not by anything remotely practical. 

 

All advice, comments, cries of "My god, you imbecile, what were you thinking" etc welcome. Thank you in advance for any help, and sorry for the wall o' text.

 

(P.S. I'm not sure if it's bad form to post a direct link to the boat in question so you can take a look at it?)

Edit: link to boat added: https://narrowboats.apolloduck.com/boat/narrow-boats-cruiser-stern/649928

 

 

 

One thought that I had in reading this was that the hull has only lost 0.6mm in places.over a period of 22 years - hardly a lot so I would assume it has been looked after pretty well should last a fair bit longer with care

Looks like a nice boat as well

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, frankling said:

Hi all

 

I just wanted to say thanks so much to everyone for all the advice, and sorry for not replying to everyone individually after about page 4 - the house move really took it out of me, and I'm now in a place with an unbelievably slow internet connection.

 

I didn't end up going through with the sale - it was especially the discussion about the water tank that rang alarm bells - I was imagining limping along from tap to tap, ekeing out my water drop by pitiful drop, like a dying traveller in a desert, and did not like the picture.

 

The boat was so cosy and gorgeous inside, I'm sure that whoever buys it will adore it, but think it's more suited to someone who wants to leave it in a marina and take it out at weekends rather than live aboard.

 

SO, lesson learned, and back to the drawing board. A big thanks to you all - I am sad to be shacked up in someone's attic rather than on a boat of my own, but think it was the right decision, and everyone's input has saved me from restricted routes and terrible dehydration. 

Ah at least you aren't in their cellar,  attics are warmer! 

Keep looking, the right one will come along. Perhaps if international flights and holidays open up next year, (you never know) there may be a better market of boats available.  All the best, hope you find your forever home soon!

Edited by Ally
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 24/10/2020 at 19:58, booke23 said:

This is very true and I have heard of this happening. I am grateful that they at least had the decency to tell me. 

 

Of course it's not sharp practice to save a wasted journey. I was referring to the practice of booking to view a boat, only for them to sell it to someone who phones after you, and pays the deposit without viewing it. I said it was slightly sharp practice, but that's brokers......I don't blame them. They are running a business and it's in their interest to get their 6% commission for the least amount of work possible. 

its not sharp practice. I would be very annoyed as a seller if my broker tries to honour every viewing commitment, in chronological order, even though somebody is willing to buy it without seeing.

 

Edited by restlessnomad
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you now have to move forward and not dwell on things. 'Plenty more boats in the sea etc'. You have alot more inside information gained from the advice given and that will help if you decide to continue your search. I really hope you do. There are a number of things I would have different on my boat but it's a life I wouldn't change. Think of this as the end of page 1.

  • Greenie 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, restlessnomad said:

its not sharp practice. I would be very annoyed as a seller if my broker tries to honour every viewing commitment, in chronological order, even though somebody is willing to buy it without seeing.

 

Post #56

 

Are you any relation to @The Happy Nomad , or is that just you again with a duplicate account? 

Edited by booke23
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.