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Dilemma about surveyed boat


frankling

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25 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

To provide a contrary view, I'd advise if new to batteries then go straight to Lifepos. If you know what you are doing with LAs it's worse than useless with Lifepos. Also if you are going to take the plunge and go with the lithium strategy, the sooner you do it the sooner it will pay off.

 

In my opinion what you DON'T want to do is buy "good quality" expensive LA batteries. This is analogous to buying a really high quality horsecart when the motor car is rising to prominence. I had a single "hybrid" 110Ah LA, cheapest I could find and heavily abused, that lasted 2 years. I've heard enough stories of Trojans and the like dying after two years to be well satisfied with that result.

 

Yes our stove is positioned right at the bow doors and the heat barely makes it halfway down the length of our 65' boat. With a second stove at the stern doors and a recently serviced Eberspacher driving rads I'll be much more comfortable with the level of redundancy. Almost makes me excited for the winter!

 

To some extent I agree with you but I wouldn't take this as medical advice!! I agree that overconcern about hygiene is sometimes counterproductive but getting protection from one disease doesn't usually give you cross immunity to another. I'd guess that most of the concern about "tank water" is more about the chemicals leaching from the coatings than it is about any bugs. There's no immunity to lead :)

 

@Athy you were spot on with the tank vs bottled debate! Personally I drink the tank water, I do have a stainless steel tank though, which I sterilised with chlorine tablets when I bought the boat, and I have a countertop carbon filter (but that's more because I don't like the taste of the chlorine they put in the tap water than out of any concern for safety).

The chlorine taste should not be there if you have used mains to fill up, then stored it in a stainless tank.

I used a bleach tablet and a high pressure jet to flush my tank when I got the boat, there is no doubt that a lot of particulates were flushed out at that time via the sink tap.

I use a bleach tablet (Tesco) if I am in 'the red' so that the bottom of the tank gets treated every few months, I just run the tap and fill up when I get to a good supply, yes I use filtered or bottled water for drinking, but it's not essential.

If zi

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2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

To provide a contrary view, I'd advise if new to batteries then go straight to Lifepos. If you know what you are doing with LAs it's worse than useless with Lifepos. Also if you are going to take the plunge and go with the lithium strategy, the sooner you do it the sooner it will pay off.

 

In my opinion what you DON'T want to do is buy "good quality" expensive LA batteries. This is analogous to buying a really high quality horsecart when the motor car is rising to prominence. I had a single "hybrid" 110Ah LA, cheapest I could find and heavily abused, that lasted 2 years. I've heard enough stories of Trojans and the like dying after two years to be well satisfied with that result.

 

Yes our stove is positioned right at the bow doors and the heat barely makes it halfway down the length of our 65' boat. With a second stove at the stern doors and a recently serviced Eberspacher driving rads I'll be much more comfortable with the level of redundancy. Almost makes me excited for the winter!

 

To some extent I agree with you but I wouldn't take this as medical advice!! I agree that overconcern about hygiene is sometimes counterproductive but getting protection from one disease doesn't usually give you cross immunity to another. I'd guess that most of the concern about "tank water" is more about the chemicals leaching from the coatings than it is about any bugs. There's no immunity to lead :)

 

@Athy you were spot on with the tank vs bottled debate! Personally I drink the tank water, I do have a stainless steel tank though, which I sterilised with chlorine tablets when I bought the boat, and I have a countertop carbon filter (but that's more because I don't like the taste of the chlorine they put in the tap water than out of any concern for safety).

I know what you are saying Ivan but a year on leisure batteries is a good thing as he is a self confessed non tech or mechanical minded chap. As you know you need skills for lithium batteries plus he needs to know that he has chosen the right lifestyle 

You are right about stoves my first I put nearly half way down it ran radiators as well, it was in addition to the Alde gas central heating. The system I have to say worked well. 

My current boat has the Rayburn a third of the way down running the central heating as well, also a bubble stove in the front for very cold days.

Both my boats have had separate water tanks one stainless this one plastic for me far better than built in tanks.

Edited by peterboat
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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

I know what you are saying Ivan but a year on leisure batteries is a good thing as he is a self confessed non tech or mechanical minded chap. As you know you need skills for lithium batteries plus he needs to know that he has chosen the right lifestyle 

I don’t disagree that a year with LA batteries and a BMV712 monitor would be a good learning curve.

 

Having said that, with hindsight, the only skills I am needing are to watch my battery monitor and make sure I start charging before the voltage gets too low, and stop charging when/before the voltage reaches its upper limit.

 

Given that I can wack 100Ah into them in just over 90 minutes, any time I like, it’s actually very easy to keep well within the voltage limits.

 

As it happens, I do have a battery protect gizmo which will stop them going below 12.4 volts, (my choice of voltage), but these gizmos have been around and used in Lead Acid systems for a while.

 

I don’t have anything yet to stop them exceeding the upper voltage but, given that I use a genny, it’s easy to keep an eye on them when charging.

 

For anyone prepared to invest the money, I think there are batteries with all of this protection built in, so no skills and no monitoring needed at all.

 

I think the main issue is the initial investment, which is based on the hope that the Batteries last as long as we “are told” they will.

 

A couple of thousand, as against a couple of hundred, is a big decision.

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3 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I don’t disagree that a year with LA batteries and a BMV712 monitor would be a good learning curve.

 

Having said that, with hindsight, the only skills I am needing are to watch my battery monitor and make sure I start charging before the voltage gets too low, and stop charging when/before the voltage reaches its upper limit.

 

Given that I can wack 100Ah into them in just over 90 minutes, any time I like, it’s actually very easy to keep well within the voltage limits.

 

As it happens, I do have a battery protect gizmo which will stop them going below 12.4 volts, (my choice of voltage), but these gizmos have been around and used in Lead Acid systems for a while.

 

I don’t have anything yet to stop them exceeding the upper voltage but, given that I use a genny, it’s easy to keep an eye on them when charging.

 

For anyone prepared to invest the money, I think there are batteries with all of this protection built in, so no skills and no monitoring needed at all.

 

I think the main issue is the initial investment, which is based on the hope that the Batteries last as long as we “are told” they will.

 

A couple of thousand, as against a couple of hundred, is a big decision.

It is a big decision Richard and along with the lifestyle changes he is making it's why I would give it a year or until they went kaput 

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

I know what you are saying Ivan but a year on leisure batteries is a good thing as he is a self confessed non tech or mechanical minded chap. As you know you need skills for lithium batteries plus he needs to know that he has chosen the right lifestyle 

With lithiums the setup is the hard part and maintenance is easy. With LA it's the other way around, and the skills needed are totally different, so I don't see the sense in "learning" with LAs. (As an aside I reckon there is a huge market for someone with the inclination to install custom lithium domestic systems, because that initial hurdle is a high one.)

 

But to your second point Peter, you're dead right - for the sake of 160 GBP's worth of cheap LAs to "try the lifestyle" before commiting, yes that's a bargain and good advice. There is no sense at all in buying Lithiums if you aren't sure you're going to keep them for at least 5 years I'd say. I think it's just difficult to accept that someone might want to go back to land after CCing for a year :D

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4 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

With lithiums the setup is the hard part and maintenance is easy. With LA it's the other way around, and the skills needed are totally different, so I don't see the sense in "learning" with LAs. (As an aside I reckon there is a huge market for someone with the inclination to install custom lithium domestic systems, because that initial hurdle is a high one.)

 

But to your second point Peter, you're dead right - for the sake of 160 GBP's worth of cheap LAs to "try the lifestyle" before commiting, yes that's a bargain and good advice. There is no sense at all in buying Lithiums if you aren't sure you're going to keep them for at least 5 years I'd say. I think it's just difficult to accept that someone might want to go back to land after CCing for a year :D

Lots of 1 and 2 year old boats for sale due to wrong lifestyle choices fortunately or unfortunately which ever way you look at it

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On 25/10/2020 at 10:39, peterboat said:

I would do the same except it would be Zinga and then 2 pack on top 

 

That's what my boat had from new.

 

Had 3 yearly dry dockings, and the original epoxy roughed up and another 2 coats applied after 12 years. No rust on it at all.

Edited by cuthound
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1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

That's what my boat had from new.

 

Had 3 yearly dry dockings, and the original epoxy roughed up and another 2 coats applied after 12 years. No rust on it at all.

We know it makes sense, I just repair the zinga and then use keelblack for cosmetic reasons 

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Hi - i can see you have had a vast number of answers on this so you may already have made a decision. I cant comment on the cost as i paid nearly as much (with all the money i have spent on it) on a similar boat.

 

Buy it - if you are really stressed you can get it overplated for about 4k and you may not need to do this for a while :)

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32 minutes ago, andy4502 said:

Hi - i can see you have had a vast number of answers on this so you may already have made a decision. I cant comment on the cost as i paid nearly as much (with all the money i have spent on it) on a similar boat.

 

Buy it - if you are really stressed you can get it overplated for about 4k and you may not need to do this for a while :)

Overplating isn't even on the horizon. From what we have been told about the survey, it is plenty thick enough, and has lost very little since built.

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1 hour ago, andy4502 said:

Hi - i can see you have had a vast number of answers on this so you may already have made a decision. I cant comment on the cost as i paid nearly as much (with all the money i have spent on it) on a similar boat.

 

Buy it - if you are really stressed you can get it overplated for about 4k and you may not need to do this for a while :)

The hull is good. It doesn't need overplating which in my opinion ruins many boats. Far better to gritblast and epoxy and it will outlast many boats which are much younger and not well cared for.

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just because a 10mm baseplate is the norm for a new boat doesn't make an older boat that was built with a 6mm baseplate inferior as long as there has been no significant loss of thickness.

 

AFAIK there are dozens of large traditional Dutch boats more than 100 years old that have hull plating less than 6mm from new and many of them are in excellent condition.

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On 24/10/2020 at 20:36, frankling said:

It was the surveyor who told me to get the sellers to replace them before finalising the sale. How would you approach the situation? Would you just eat the cost and buy them yourself? There are four leisure + one starter, so quite costly to replace all five...

I would tell vendor that £500 off the asking price is requred for that, if he quibbles ask him to replace the leisure batteries with four 135 ah deep cycle batteries and you will buy the starter battery.

Replacing them is not a ten minute job, first of all you need to identify the type of posts and the orientation, plus if you want bigger batteries, are the cables up to that job, existing battery cables are usually heavy enough, but if upgrading for liveaboard autonomy, you need to be sure it is all safe.

I only have AGM (absorbed glass mat), starter batteries are pretty much always agm these days, no topping up with distilled water.

To comply with BSC they should be secured, and the terminals booted to prevent a SHORT, . :   . very dangerous things batteries if you don't know how to handle them.

Edited by LadyG
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20 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I would tell vendor that £500 off the asking price is requred for that, if he quibbles ask him to replace the leisure batteries with four 135 ah deep cycle batteries and you will buy the starter battery.

Replacing them is not a ten minute job, first of all you need to identify the type of posts and the orientation, plus if you want bigger batteries, are the cables up to that job, existing battery cables are usually heavy enough, but if upgrading for liveaboard autonomy, you need to be sure it is all safe.

I only have AGM (absorbed glass mat), starter batteries are pretty much always agm these days, no topping up with distilled water.

To comply with BSC they should be secured, and the terminals booted to prevent a SHORT, . :   . very dangerous things batteries if you don't know how to handle them.

 

When I have sold boats, I price them to take into account the condition or repairs necessary - I WILL NOT drop the price because they think a new battery(s) is needed.

 

It always gets 'my goat' in these house programmes "We need to offer a lower price because we need to re-paint it, that orange is horrible" Why should the price be reduced because you want to change the colour ?

It doesn't seem to happen with Cars, Horses etc - you buy what you see, if you don't like its colour then don't buy it - there are plenty of other buyers out there.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

When I have sold boats, I price them to take into account the condition or repairs necessary - I WILL NOT drop the price because they think a new battery(s) is needed.

 

It always gets 'my goat' in these house programmes "We need to offer a lower price because we need to re-paint it, that orange is horrible" Why should the price be reduced because you want to change the colour ?

It doesn't seem to happen with Cars, Horses etc - you buy what you see, if you don't like its colour then don't buy it - there are plenty of other buyers out there.

it's called 'negotiation' ..............  any plausible or possibly implausible reason to drop the price  ..........................    is that a strange concept for you?

 

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1 minute ago, Murflynn said:

it's called 'negotiation' ..............  any plausible or possibly implausible reason to drop the price  ..........................    is that a strange concept for you?

 

Not at all - as you may remember on the Cat I negotiated the price down by £80,000 because it could not be sold within the EU, or exported from Croatia without the correct paperwork, and that paperwork was missing.

 

If a boat was found to need overplating or the engine was totally Kaput, then they are reasonable negotiation factors, saying "I think it will need new batteries and you will pay for them or I won't buy the boat" or " I need to repaint the inside of the boat so drop the price" is not negotiation, it verges on demanding money with threats.

 

I'd rather say," its obviously not the boat for you, I wait for someone else to come along who does want it, sorry you have paid all that money for a lift out / in and a surveyor, It was your choice, and, it has not changed colour since you first saw it".

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18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not at all - as you may remember on the Cat I negotiated the price down by £80,000 because it could not be sold within the EU, or exported from Croatia without the correct paperwork, and that paperwork was missing.

 

If a boat was found to need overplating or the engine was totally Kaput, then they are reasonable negotiation factors, saying "I think it will need new batteries and you will pay for them or I won't buy the boat" or " I need to repaint the inside of the boat so drop the price" is not negotiation, it verges on demanding money with threats.

 

I'd rather say," its obviously not the boat for you, I wait for someone else to come along who does want it, sorry you have paid all that money for a lift out / in and a surveyor, It was your choice, and, it has not changed colour since you first saw it".

Here we go again, negotiation is de rigeur for the buyers, not when he wants to sell, you have to decide what you want to do yourself, my NB was bought at offer price when I appointed a negotiator, that was a mistake, but we all make mistakes, it's a good boat, but I would have used the 'discount' to buy some goodies, instead , I am puting my energy in to the upgrade.

As for travel restrictions, forget it, just take every precaution, and view 

Edited by LadyG
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21 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Here we go again, negotiation is de rigeur for the buyers, not when he wants to sell, you have to decide what you want to do yourself, my NB was bought at offer price when I appointed a negotiator, that was a mistake, but we all make mistakes, it's a good boat, but I would have used the 'discount' to buy some goodies, instead , I am puting my energy in to the upgrade.

As for travel restrictions, forget it, just take every precaution, and view 

currently its a sellers market and the buyer could easily lose the boat for asking for 500 squids off, the problem with batteries is what test has the surveyor done to determine they are knackered?

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29 minutes ago, peterboat said:

currently its a sellers market and the buyer could easily lose the boat for asking for 500 squids off, the problem with batteries is what test has the surveyor done to determine they are knackered?

Well, if the vendor backs out, it is because he has another buyer lined up, a buyer who is prepared to pay over the asking price, we are discussing 'negotiation', that means thebuyer has the leverage (his offer is attractive)otherwise, I could put my boat on the market for £70K, take the cash and buy back my flat , that I sold for "£50k", or even better buy a sailaway, widebeam  take it to London and sell it for £20k more.

It may be a sellers market, unlikely in winter, but that does not mean that there are no boats available at a reasonable price to someone who can pay today.

Re what 'test' does the surveyor aply? EXPERIENCE 

Edited by LadyG
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5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Well, if the vendor backs out, it is because he has another buyer lined up,

Not necessarily, you simply decide not to sell it for the offered price (thats not 'backing out')

 

I was recently selling a car that I had advertised at £2000 a potential buyer came, kicked the tyres and offered £800 so I said no thank you and he left. I didn't have another buyer lined up, but it was worth more than the offer so I refused.

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42 minutes ago, peterboat said:

currently its a sellers market and the buyer could easily lose the boat for asking for 500 squids off

 

With a fixed price written sale agreement subject to survey it's normal for the vendor to make good any undisclosed defects found by the survey.

 

Many sellers would rather knock the price of 5 new batteries off the agreed sale price rather than faff about installing the new ones themselves.

 

Backing out of the sale after signing a sale agreement can leave the seller liable for costs of the survey, depending on the contract.

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

When I have sold boats, I price them to take into account the condition or repairs necessary - I WILL NOT drop the price because they think a new battery(s) is needed.

 

It always gets 'my goat' in these house programmes "We need to offer a lower price because we need to re-paint it, that orange is horrible" Why should the price be reduced because you want to change the colour ?

It doesn't seem to happen with Cars, Horses etc - you buy what you see, if you don't like its colour then don't buy it - there are plenty of other buyers out there.

Like when I sold Mum and dads home following their death. it was quite rundown really but when we valued it those things were taken account. We knew it needed rewiring, central heating , and lots of other things so there was no point in coming back trying to get the price down. Potential buyers were made aware of that.

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