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Dilemma about surveyed boat


frankling

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If your own survey shows these measurements then this boat is in very good condition after 20 odd years and it’ must be good quality steel that’s been well looked after. Our working boats had bottoms originally of 3/8ths inch ship building steel and even having been worked hard and often wet on both sides lasted 40 years plus. When I brought my barge in Belgium I was initially concerned when the survey showed up places 4.5mm thick but the surveyor said no problem it was built 5.5mm 80 years ago! It’s deep pitting that is the worry. Talk to your surveyor to put your mind at rest then enjoy your life afloat.

Edited by Dav and Pen
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Looks great! I think the price is a little high but not unreasonable given the market which as you say is very hot. Perhaps try to negotiate it down on the basis of the steel, if you're not too late in the negotiation process for that.

 

The water tank capacity stuck out for me too, mine is 3x the size and I still find it frustratingly small - I've been contemplating a bigger tank since I got the boat. Perhaps that's something you can add.

 

5 hours ago, frankling said:

I'm also not a very practical person

That will change if you are living aboard a boat :) don't tell yourself that you aren't practical. Practical skills are like any other - it's just a case of having the confidence and gumption to give a task a try, be willing to learn and most importantly be willing to muck it up.

 

And there's a whole forum of people here who are extremely helpful and will give you guidance when you need practical advice - I knew nothing about boats when I joined the forum and despite one or two good natured jibes everyone has taught me so much. There are plenty of great resources out there, and you can even do a course in the basics.

 

I say go for it and enjoy her.

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Water tank capacity is at the lower end of the norm but we only have about 45 gallons on a 10 metre boat, that lasts us about a week or so of fairly careless use but water points can be scarce in France so we can make it last very much longer by adding bottled water to the shopping list and using canal water to flush the vacuflush loo. OK its a bit of a nuisance but then its a boat and storing water, electricity, fuel and gas always need a bit of thought. As for the OP saying he/she is not very handy and doesn't know a lot about boats, don't worry, you soon will!

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Ok, as others have said, it looks like a good boat, albeit a little overpriced, but given the state of the market at the moment ...

You may find the water capacity is in fact more. However it is enough but you may need to change how you go about using it. My wife and I manage on about 30 litres a day, and that is with two showers including her long hair washed every day, washing up and all the drinks needed. Keep a 20 litre poly Jerry or two somewhere out of the light as backup.

 You may be paying a bit too much, but how much more would you spend if you continue looking, paying for more surveys etc?

 If you can afford it, go for it - you could finish up with much worse.

P.S.  Welcome to the wonderful world of boating!

Edited by dor
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6 hours ago, frankling said:

Hello All

 

I wonder if anyone out there can offer some advice. My life has turned a bit upside down, and in the chaos, I decided to sell my house and go for a liveaboard. I've been reading about boats and looking at boats since about May, and a couple of weeks ago thought I'd found the one for me. I got massively overenthusiastic, had a survey done, and now am paralysed by indecision.

 

I'm too much of a newbie at all this, and think I may have rushed into making an offer and am making an expensive mistake. If anyone can offer advice to stop me from potentially making the mistake bigger and even more expensive, that would be fantastic!

 

The website didn't have all that much information about the boat, so I did ask supplemental questions. However, I never asked anything about the most crucial bit, the hull. I thought that most canal boats were 10/6/4 or 8/6/4, with Springers being thinner. Since this boat isn't a Springer, it never even dawned on me that the steel might be not be a standard thickness. However, when it was pulled out of the water and the surveyor went to look at it, he determined that the base plate was originally 6.6mm, the swim 6.5mm and the side plating 5.0mm. The boat now is 5.9-6.0mm swim, 4.9-5.0mm side plating.

 

Absolutely kicking myself, because the boat had had a survey in 2017, but I never asked to look at it, since it was three years old and I was planning to get my own survey done anyway, but of course the 2017 survey would have mentioned the thin steel, and then I think I would have got cold feet and walked away. The boat was built in 1998, is 45 feet, and is selling for £35,000, which I'm now thinking sounds a lot for a cheaply-built 22-year-old boat? What would you advise - is it more sensible to leave this boat alone and wait for something to come along with a higher-quality hull? Or are those steel thicknesses fine and dandy as long as I keep looking after it?

 

I feel really lost with this. My parents lived on a narrowboat for 15 or 20 years, but I paid no attention to anything apart from the stove and the kettle on their boat at the time, and they are now too old and too far away from their boat-ownership days to help. I'm also not a very practical person - no knowledge of engines etc - and don't really know anyone who is practical who can look at boats with me. £35,000 is the top end of the budget, and it is such a huge sum to me that I am in a complete dilemma on this one. I have to admit that my love-at-first-sight feeling was a gut feeling induced by the interior - it just felt like home when I stepped aboard - and not by anything remotely practical. 

 

All advice, comments, cries of "My god, you imbecile, what were you thinking" etc welcome. Thank you in advance for any help, and sorry for the wall o' text.

 

(P.S. I'm not sure if it's bad form to post a direct link to the boat in question so you can take a look at it?)

Edit: link to boat added: https://narrowboats.apolloduck.com/boat/narrow-boats-cruiser-stern/649928

 

 

 

my boat was built in 1981 and is 6/5/3, I expect it to still be floating long after I have passed on.

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4 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Water tank capacity is tiny for a live aboard, you will have to moor near a water point all the time!

 

Go back to the seller, be horror struck with the lack of modern steel plate thickness, yes it will affect a sale later.

 

Knock between £11K and £7K off the price, tell them take it or leave it.

I think you should ask your surveyor for his opinion on the suitabilty of the boat for a liveaboard, I am assuming you told vendor that was your requirement.

I would say two forms of heating (not gas) and a bed to lie on are essentials if in a marina.

If you are working Mon to Fri and constant cruising, that is a whole different ball game.

We don't know exactly how committed you are in terms of having made an offer subject to survey, did you sign anything?

Is there a broker involved, does the vendor have proof of ownership, see the RYA site for a Bill of Sale. You must ensure any boat you buy is sold "free of encumbrances", read the Bill of Sale proformer. Is there a history with this boat, ownership, Bill of Sale, recent receipts etc.

 

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Crikey, thanks for all the replies, and sorry for the delay coming back to everyone - I'm moving out of my house on Monday, so have been trying to get rid of some of the 16 years' of silted-up possessions today...

 

Will try to respond to everyone now!

6 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Mine's quite a bit older than that, and was built in quarter inch (6mm) steel.

 

Realistically, there's no concerns on that hull.  It's obviously been maintained and regularly blacked.

 

There are many newer boats with far worse corrosion issues.

 

The boat has a modern engine and a sound hull, and you like the fitout, so enjoy it.

 

 

 

 

Thank you, TheBiscuits! I'm so glad I came and posted here - it's settled my jangled nerves that there hasn't been an overwhelming cry of horror from all the experienced boaters here.

 

6 hours ago, Bee said:

Stop kicking yourself! If you have made a mistake its not a very big one and most of us have made far worse decisions sometime or other. The steel thicknesses look very good to me, Make sure that you crane or haul it out every 3 years or so and get it pressure washed and painted - and underneath as well - and they will stay that way. Looks OK inside too, move straight in and start living on it. Price is not unreasonable, might have negotiated a bit off maybe, or maybe not. Anyway, you couldn't buy much of a home for less except a beaten up motorhome, rotten caravan or a tent. If I was looking for a boat like that I would have shortlisted that one.

Aww, thank you, Bee. I'm sure I am paying slightly over the odds, but if it ends up being my home for five years or 10 years, the extra 'cost' is kind of spread over time. I definitely intend to keep it well maintained.

 

5 hours ago, Ray T said:

Make sure the boat is regularly blacked, keep receipts. Every 2 years is the recommended for bitchumen. Our boat is also 1998 vintage and we have her blacked every 18 months - but that is my preference.

 

If the boat will be subject to mains hook up in a marina make sure it has either a galvanic isolator or transformer.

Thanks, Ray - the surveyor recommended two-pack epoxy next year, or possibly pushing it to the year after, so I will follow his instructions, and also keep receipts as you advise. I think the boat's been kept mostly at the marina (although couldn't swear to it), so guess it has a galvanic isolator or transformer? But I was hoping to have a handover from the current owners, so will def check with them.

 

5 hours ago, Lady C said:

It looks OK to me too.  If you can get hold of it, it may be worth asking to see the 2017 survey.  This will tell you if there has been any noticeable change in the interim.  As other posters have said, keeping it regularly blacked will keep the steel in good condition and having the baseplate blacked too is a good idea.

Thank you. I am such a noddy for not asking about the 2017 survey before, but that's a good point about changes between 2017 and now!

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5 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Apart from your dilemma about the boat itself, I'm afraid I can't help thinking that this may be another issue for anyone on a limited budget who's contemplating living on a boat.

 

There will always be things to repair on the boat as well as regular maintenance and if you're not hands on or practically inclined and don't know anyone who can help who is, then it will end up costing a lot of money to get people in. 

Yes, I agree it's not ideal! But I'm sure I can learn how to do some stuff - I have a book about boat maintenance, and there is so much information available on the internet these days, and I can maybe pay people in the beginning and watch closely how they do things before having a go myself. No doubt it will be a very steep learning curve, but everyone has to start somewhere, and I don't think that boat ownership should be limited only to people who are already amazing joiners/mechanics/sparkies etc ?

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5 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Given that your worry about the Hull thickness is unfounded, and you had no other issues with the survey, my suggestion is to get it bought :) Presumably the rest of the survey is fine.

Thanks, Richard - it is setting my mind more at ease to hear everyone's feedback. The batteries were cronked, so the surveyor said to get the owners to replace them; then there were a few other things that need seeing to (eg the water tank could do with draining, scraping & repainting, hinges on the water tank cover replacing, and a few other bits and bobs, but I don't think anything serious).

5 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Yes... but the fact that his life has been turned upside down may have necessitated the sale. As you say, we don't know, and its none of our business unless he wants to tell.

 

I could have added that, financially,  I hope he did everything he could to keep the house. If the sale hasn't exchanged, perhaps I could suggest this be given more thought.

The house is sold, contracts exchanged, and I'm moving out on Monday. It's the right decision for me, though, at this point in time.

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4 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Water tank capacity is tiny for a live aboard, you will have to moor near a water point all the time!

 

To everyone questioning the size of the water tank - that was a big concern of mine too. I asked the owners how they had gone on with it, and they said that they would take the boat out for 10 days at a time and not have to refill the tank (and that's with two people on board). That didn't sound too bad to me, as I estimated that at that rate, it would probably last me a fortnight at a time? But perhaps I'm miscalculating?

 

5 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Go back to the seller, be horror struck with the lack of modern steel plate thickness, yes it will affect a sale later.

 

Knock between £11K and £7K off the price, tell them take it or leave it.

Ug, do you think? Don't think my negotiating skills are that fierce ? 

 

 

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5 hours ago, booke23 said:

I've been looking at buying a boat for the last couple of months in this size range.

 

I think it looks good. It may have 6/5 hull, but crucially it still has nearly all this thickness remaining which is good. Remember there are lots of 6/5/5 aluminium Sea Otters about that get by just fine, and aluminium isn't as strong as steel, so your boat will be more than up to the job. It's got a good modern engine and Victron inverter + solar. Most boats this age are not as well equipped as that. 

 

I wouldn't advise pulling out......it could take you 6 months to find a similar boat. Added to that the current market is boat sales (especially in the 40-45ft range) is crazy. Good boats come on with the major brokers and people put the deposit down on the phone without viewing.......usually within an hour or 2 of it going on the market!

How are you going along with your boat search?

Thanks very much for the input. I agree, the market is nuts - by the time you've clicked through all the brokers each morning, the first boats that you looked at have already gone! It's incomprehensible to me how people can make offers without even viewing - to me, these sums of money are huge, and it's baffling how people can be so cavalier with their cash. 

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2 hours ago, Dav and Pen said:

If your own survey shows these measurements then this boat is in very good condition after 20 odd years and it’ must be good quality steel that’s been well looked after. Our working boats had bottoms originally of 3/8ths inch ship building steel and even having been worked hard and often wet on both sides lasted 40 years plus. When I brought my barge in Belgium I was initially concerned when the survey showed up places 4.5mm thick but the surveyor said no problem it was built 5.5mm 80 years ago! It’s deep pitting that is the worry. Talk to your surveyor to put your mind at rest then enjoy your life afloat.

I like hearing about people with thinner steel who are not losing any sleep over it!! Before the survey took place, the surveyor said that possible pitting was his main concern; but I went along to look at the boat after he had finished the survey but before he had left, and he said there was negligible pitting.   

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25 minutes ago, frankling said:

To everyone questioning the size of the water tank - that was a big concern of mine too. I asked the owners how they had gone on with it, and they said that they would take the boat out for 10 days at a time and not have to refill the tank (and that's with two people on board). That didn't sound too bad to me, as I estimated that at that rate, it would probably last me a fortnight at a time? But perhaps I'm miscalculating?

 

Ug, do you think? Don't think my negotiating skills are that fierce ? 

 

 

 

I don't believe that about the tank, its tiny. Land based domestic consumption is reckoned to be 50 GALLONS per person per day. Mine is 1020 litres, last 2 of us 3 weeks showering, drinking and washing, loo flushes with grey water. What does the loo flush with on this boat - fresh air?

 

You only find out by trying. So they don't like a big reduction?  You can go up!  How long has it been on sale? Remember that the broker is taking his percentage, so the more you knock off the less the seller gives the broker.

I have bought boats and cars with 30% off by turning up with a Tesco bag of cash, what the seller and broker do with it is up to them.

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Looks great! I think the price is a little high but not unreasonable given the market which as you say is very hot. Perhaps try to negotiate it down on the basis of the steel, if you're not too late in the negotiation process for that.

 

The water tank capacity stuck out for me too, mine is 3x the size and I still find it frustratingly small - I've been contemplating a bigger tank since I got the boat. Perhaps that's something you can add.

 

That will change if you are living aboard a boat :) don't tell yourself that you aren't practical. Practical skills are like any other - it's just a case of having the confidence and gumption to give a task a try, be willing to learn and most importantly be willing to muck it up.

 

And there's a whole forum of people here who are extremely helpful and will give you guidance when you need practical advice - I knew nothing about boats when I joined the forum and despite one or two good natured jibes everyone has taught me so much. There are plenty of great resources out there, and you can even do a course in the basics.

 

I say go for it and enjoy her.

Aww, thanks for the encouraging reply. It's sold subject to survey, so .... possibly there is wiggle room on the steel?? I do need to go back to them about replacing the batteries, which are all kaput. 

The water tank was a big concern of mine, but the current people said that two of them have gone out for 10-day trips without needing to fill the tank, and there's only one of me. I wonder how easy it is to add a bigger tank, if it does turn out to be an issue?

Heh heh - yes, learning about boat maintenance is going to be a challenge, but I'm really excited to learn! It's encouraging to hear that you have fared well with the practical stuff, and I can see that there is a vast amount of knowledge among the members here, and it is so heartening to see how willing people are to share their NB experience and brain contents. A few months ago I was looking at the courses at https://nbsc.org.uk/ and thinking how interesting they looked. Even though I'm not intending to fit out a shell, I thought it might be cool to go on a few just to understand how everything aboard is put together...

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27 minutes ago, frankling said:

How are you going along with your boat search?

Very badly!

Twice recently I've phoned a broker to make an appointment the next day to view a boat that has just come on the market, and both times the broker phoned back an hour or so later to say someone had put a deposit down over the phone. It's very frustrating and IMO slightly sharp practice......but that's brokers for you. 

 

27 minutes ago, frankling said:

It's incomprehensible to me how people can make offers without even viewing - to me, these sums of money are huge, and it's baffling how people can be so cavalier with their cash. 

Exactly my thoughts. I'm really not comfortable with committing to purchase just from photos/video no matter how good the boat seems, but at the moment that is how the market is and I may have to bite the bullet. 

 

Oh and something else I've learnt is that knackered batteries are pretty much standard on used boats being sold!

Edited by booke23
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1 minute ago, booke23 said:

Twice recently I've phoned a broker to make an appointment the next day to view a boat that has just come on the market, and both times the broker phoned back an hour or so later to say someone had put a deposit down over the phone. It's very frustrating and IMO slightly sharp practice......but that's brokers for you. 

 

Better than not telling you until you get there!

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2 minutes ago, booke23 said:

Very badly!

Twice recently I've phoned a broker to make an appointment the next day to view a boat that has just come on the market, and both times the broker phoned back an hour or so later to say someone had put a deposit down over the phone. It's very frustrating and IMO slightly sharp practice......but that's brokers for you. 

 

Exactly my thoughts. I'm really not comfortable with committing to purchase just from photos/video no matter how good the boat seems, but at the moment that is how the market is and I may have 

Why is it sharp practice to save you a wasted journey?

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2 hours ago, dor said:

You may find the water capacity is in fact more. However it is enough but you may need to change how you go about using it. My wife and I manage on about 30 litres a day, and that is with two showers including her long hair washed every day, washing up and all the drinks needed. Keep a 20 litre poly Jerry or two somewhere out of the light as backup.

 You may be paying a bit too much, but how much more would you spend if you continue looking, paying for more surveys etc?

 If you can afford it, go for it - you could finish up with much worse.

P.S.  Welcome to the wonderful world of boating!

Yes, I will keep a separate stash of drinking water aboard - in fact, the surveyor did say to drink bottled water until the tank is drained/scraped/repainted.... I'll definitely need to learn how to be frugal with water - spit on the crockery, and polish with elbow?!

 

You're right about the expense of a long search too - after the survey, when the unexpectedly thin steel made me question the whole purchase, I started totting up the cost of renting a place to live, time/petrol driving up and down the country, another one? two? three? surveys on other boats with unexpected issues, heightened stress levels etc, and didn't really like the total.

 

Thank you for the welcome!! I think it's going to be interesting and challenging and invigoratingly different from the last 16 years ? 

Edited by frankling
accidentally posted before I finished writing
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2 hours ago, Rickent said:

my boat was built in 1981 and is 6/5/3, I expect it to still be floating long after I have passed on.

...which will be many years in the future, I hope!

I just don't want to ever have to overplate, and want to be able to resell if this liveaboard plan turns out to be disastrous... 

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2 hours ago, Murflynn said:

if you plan to keep the boat in a marina and do little cruising the water tank capacity may not be an issue.

 

when I was moored in Bristol marina every boat was close to a tap and could be filled using a 10 metre hose without moving.

 

nice boat - enjoy!

I wanted to constant cruise for the first year, so perhaps it is problematic.

 

Bristol marina looks great - I used to live in St Andrews many years ago, and always liked it around the docks - and it has got even nicer down there since then.

 

Thank you!

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Re replacing leisure batteries, I would be very wary, you need deep cycle / leisure / batteries, the auto shop starter batteries arecheaper, but no use for anything other than staritng the engine. 

It is very common for vendors to sell boat with end of life batteries, especially if they are marina based, using shoreline 230 volts.

Edited by LadyG
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Just now, LadyG said:

Re replacing leisure batteries, I would be very wary, you need deep cycle / leisire / batteries, theauto shop starter batteries arecheaper, but no use for anything other than staritng the engine. 

In your opinion, what are the differences between 'leisure batteries' and 'starter batteries' ?

What is the definition of 'Deep cycle batteries', ?

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

In your opinion, what are the differences between 'leisure batteries' and 'starter batteries' ?

What is the definition of 'Deep cycle batteries', ?

Same as your opinion Alan ?

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