Are LED Tunnel Lights Really Necessary

[Mad Harold]

9 hours ago, IanD said:

And wait for the screams of agony from blinded boaters coming the other way... 😉

I had my led tunnel light pointing up at the roof of the tunnel.

There was enough light scatter to see the sides.

Had no complaints.

[IanD]

9 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

I had my led tunnel light pointing up at the roof of the tunnel.

There was enough light scatter to see the sides.

Had no complaints.

 

I'm sure you did, and didn't.

 

However the problem with most LED lights (not the ones I posted) is that they're basically one or more forward-facing LED chips surrounded by a parabolic reflector to try and direct most of the light into a beam, which they do. Go and look at the LED lights on sale -- especially the cheap ones which most people buy -- and it's blindingly obvious (ho, ho...) that this is how they're built.

 

Unfortunately the (small, *extremely* bright) LEDs are directly visible from the front, and these are dazzling even if the light beam is pointed away from you or at the roof -- I've seen them, and they're so bright they leave a trail across your eye as you move it, rather like looking directly at the sun. It's the reason you can see modern bike lights coming hundreds of yards away -- which is great for bike visibility! -- but is even worse with more powerful lights in completely dark environments like tunnels.

 

This wasn't a problem with good old halogen headlights because these have a dip-beam shield to prevent exactly this problem. It is a problem with most of the LED lights on the market today -- if you don't believe me, stand in front of one outside the main beam pattern and look at it.

 

It's not LED technology itself that's the problem, done properly -- for example, the LED matrix headlights on my car -- it's far superior to incandescent bulbs, and much more efficient. But the temptation is there to make them as cheaply as possible and this is exactly what most of the LED light suppliers do... 😞

[Steilsteven]

On 01/11/2021 at 11:22, ditchcrawler said:

And you don't hear of headlights on boats, Boats at night normally only use navigation lights and maybe a spotlight for mooring

Masthead light but I've yet to see one on a narrow boat.

 

Keith

[ditchcrawler]

3 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

Masthead light but I've yet to see one on a narrow boat.

 

Keith

I was thinking a white light with a beam but here is one

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by ditchcrawler

[Steilsteven]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I was thinking a white light with a beam

Yes I know but I couldn't resist a little pedantry. 😉

[Ian Mac]

We have become very concerned by the changes in headlights, our own included. We switched to a LED headlight a while ago, so we could better see at night, so the more lumens the better was the principle, and we stuck to a fog light reflector so that we got a wide narrow beam, once the technology allowed us to. We started off using a pair of array LEDS.
However although it is great for night boating we have discovered that it blinds people coming the other way. Two reasons for this 1) is the number of lumens 2) is the colour temperature. This second one is a real problem for two reasons the colour temperature effects the quantity of lumen quite significantly currently, the higher the colour temp the more lumens you can get. However the higher the temp the more dazing the light becomes, due to the way the human eye works. This is why it is getting harder to drive on the roads at night due to dazzle, as more and more headlights become LED ones, and nearly all road Leds are high colour temps.
So we are now in the process of fitting a duel bulb system, where we will have a powerful wide beam and a low power very warm white 2500K bulb and the steerer will be able to switch between them. Hopefully this will mean when we are cycling back towards the boat, we will not cycle into the cut which is why we started to look into this problem, in the first place. Too many near misses.

It will also mean if we get dazzled in a tunnel we can totally dazzle back, and maybe the boat coming the other way will get the hint. Till then we will be putting a paper bag over the headlight in tunnels.

[IanD]

47 minutes ago, Ian Mac said:

We have become very concerned by the changes in headlights, our own included. We switched to a LED headlight a while ago, so we could better see at night, so the more lumens the better was the principle, and we stuck to a fog light reflector so that we got a wide narrow beam, once the technology allowed us to. We started off using a pair of array LEDS.
However although it is great for night boating we have discovered that it blinds people coming the other way. Two reasons for this 1) is the number of lumens 2) is the colour temperature. This second one is a real problem for two reasons the colour temperature effects the quantity of lumen quite significantly currently, the higher the colour temp the more lumens you can get. However the higher the temp the more dazing the light becomes, due to the way the human eye works. This is why it is getting harder to drive on the roads at night due to dazzle, as more and more headlights become LED ones, and nearly all road Leds are high colour temps.
So we are now in the process of fitting a duel bulb system, where we will have a powerful wide beam and a low power very warm white 2500K bulb and the steerer will be able to switch between them. Hopefully this will mean when we are cycling back towards the boat, we will not cycle into the cut which is why we started to look into this problem, in the first place. Too many near misses.

It will also mean if we get dazzled in a tunnel we can totally dazzle back, and maybe the boat coming the other way will get the hint. Till then we will be putting a paper bag over the headlight in tunnels.

See my post further up the page -- almost all the cheap aftermarket LED lights are dazzling, even those which claim a wide beam, including most (or all?) of the LED array ones I've been able to find.

 

SImple rule -- if you can see the LED chip that emits the light when looking at the lamp, it will dazzle people.

 

High colour temperature (lights that look blue-white) doesn't help, but it's not the main cause of the problem.

[BWM]

12 hours ago, Ian Mac said:

We have become very concerned by the changes in headlights, our own included. We switched to a LED headlight a while ago, so we could better see at night, so the more lumens the better was the principle, and we stuck to a fog light reflector so that we got a wide narrow beam, once the technology allowed us to. We started off using a pair of array LEDS.
However although it is great for night boating we have discovered that it blinds people coming the other way. Two reasons for this 1) is the number of lumens 2) is the colour temperature. This second one is a real problem for two reasons the colour temperature effects the quantity of lumen quite significantly currently, the higher the colour temp the more lumens you can get. However the higher the temp the more dazing the light becomes, due to the way the human eye works. This is why it is getting harder to drive on the roads at night due to dazzle, as more and more headlights become LED ones, and nearly all road Leds are high colour temps.
So we are now in the process of fitting a duel bulb system, where we will have a powerful wide beam and a low power very warm white 2500K bulb and the steerer will be able to switch between them. Hopefully this will mean when we are cycling back towards the boat, we will not cycle into the cut which is why we started to look into this problem, in the first place. Too many near misses.

It will also mean if we get dazzled in a tunnel we can totally dazzle back, and maybe the boat coming the other way will get the hint. Till then we will be putting a paper bag over the headlight in tunnels.

Using two headlights can be confusing for oncoming craft too, and even though i sympathise with the sentiment of payback on being blinded it can only end in a race to the bottom. 

[ditchcrawler]

Just now, BWM said:

Using two headlights can be confusing for oncoming craft too, and even though i sympathise with the sentiment of payback on being blinded it can only end in a race to the bottom. 

I liked the earlier idea of a mirrored cratch board

[BWM]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

I liked the earlier idea of a mirrored cratch board

That has some appeal, allowing the culprit to bask in their own glory!

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, BWM said:

Using two headlights can be confusing for oncoming craft too, and even though i sympathise with the sentiment of payback on being blinded it can only end in a race to the bottom. 

I met a boat in a tunnel with twin lights, it was a trip/ restaurant boat, as I approached he didnt switch one off, but both of them and then I had no idea where he was

[Stroudwater1]

We met one like that with the light disappearing, then came my sons voice at the bow "You are on the wrong side mate" he changed sides rapidly and apologised in an Antipodean accent 

 

Incidentally a  friend used to moan about car headlight dazzle- it was all fixed when his cataract was removed. 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Stroudwater1

[Ray T]

On 03/11/2021 at 12:18, Steilsteven said:

Masthead light but I've yet to see one on a narrow boat.

 

Keith

 

[Captain Pegg]

Approaching Shortwood Tunnel a couple of weeks ago I was confronted by this.

 

 

[JamesWoolcock]

3 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Approaching Shortwood Tunnel a couple of weeks ago I was confronted by this.

 

 

And me at Brandwood a few months ago.

The arrogant lady steerer couldn't have cared less about my protestations. 

[ditchcrawler]

5 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Approaching Shortwood Tunnel a couple of weeks ago I was confronted by this.

 

 

 

Same tunnel August 2020

[Captain Pegg]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

 

Same tunnel August 2020

 

Was it the Alvechurch day boat? No point in remonstrating with the steerer.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

Was it the Alvechurch day boat? No point in remonstrating with the steerer.

Yes

[Wanderer Vagabond]

11 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I liked the earlier idea of a mirrored cratch board

 

11 hours ago, BWM said:

That has some appeal, allowing the culprit to bask in their own glory!

Yes I think that idea would have some attraction particularly if my understanding of optics is right (willing to be corrected) but if you see you own image reflected from a mirror that is also approaching you, would that not give the impression that the oncoming boat (reflected image) was travelling at twice it's actual speed?

[IanD]

12 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

 

Yes I think that idea would have some attraction particularly if my understanding of optics is right (willing to be corrected) but if you see you own image reflected from a mirror that is also approaching you, would that not give the impression that the oncoming boat (reflected image) was travelling at twice it's actual speed?

 

Wow, for some boats you might actually start to see some blue shift in the reflection... 😉

[Rob-M]

The boat moored in front of us has just turned his tunnel lights on, glad we aren't moving towards each other in a tunnel.

 

[Tracy D'arth]

They have to be LED.  Filament lamps are no longer made. Get used to it, I have.  I flash back!

[Rob-M]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

They have to be LED.  Filament lamps are no longer made. Get used to it, I have.  I flash back!

But doesn't need to be two super powerful LED lamps.

[Ronaldo47]

The sale of filament bulbs for automotive spotlights and headlights  have not been banned, but decreasing demand will no doubt eventually  make their manufacture uneconomic.  

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

The sale of filament bulbs for automotive spotlights and headlights  have not been banned, but decreasing demand will no doubt eventually  make their manufacture uneconomic.  

 

More particularly, I tried to buy some standard brightness LED bulbs for my van headlights and the stop and tail lights, as my van eats them for breakfast. No-one makes them! The only LED lamps in standard filament bulb format are all stupid colours, extra bright, etc for the idiot boy racer market.