Jump to content

Zanussi Washing machine with Victron Inverter problem


Monkeybox

Featured Posts

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

I run mine from a Honda generator rather than an inverter. As I mentioned previously in this thread, it doesn't like the pure sinewave from the generator and it hesitates to start, but eventually it always does. Once it starts it keeps going through the full cycle and I've never had problem during the cycle with low energy states. 

There must be something variable about the electronics in them then.  Probably a component tolerance build up. Strange though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

There must be something variable about the electronics in them then.  Probably a component tolerance build up. Strange though.

 

Yes it's very odd. I'm no electrician but I'd have thought it either works or it doesn't. However, sometimes the washing machine will allow me to start it more or less straight away when running from the generator, while other times it makes me wait for 20 mins until the start light illuminates and I can press the start button. Weird. 

 

I posted this on the forum more than 15 years ago but nobody has ever really been able to get to the bottom of what's going on. 

Edited by blackrose
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

There must be something variable about the electronics in them then.  Probably a component tolerance build up. Strange though.

Victron told me it was something called Grid Detection.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To run a motor from a sine wave inverter is problematic.

 

The inverter is making a sine wave at about 8 Volts using transistors switching on and off to create a sine wave shape to mimic the mains supply.

The 230 Volt output is derived from this 8 Volt sine wave by a ‘step up’ transformer. To make an inverter with a 2000 Watt capacity, (2000W/230V = 8.6 Amperes) and to make this current capacity from 8 Volts (230/8 = 29) that is 29 x 8.6 = 249 Amperes.

The inverter then is drawing 249 Amperes from the batteries, via the inverter to support a 2000 Watt load.

 

The washing motor is a commutating motor, thyristors switch on & off to regulate the speed of the motor at 100 times / second, each switching event turns the supply on creating both a current surge and Voltage spike in excess of the 230 Volt supply from the inverter.

 

In normal domestic installations the supply is softened by the transmission line which can run for many miles, spikes and surges are absorbed.

 

In a boat or RV, the transmission line may be just a metre, with no room to absorb the interference created by the motor, supply impedance is very high, the interference is like hitting a brick wall.

 

The inverter is being ‘hit’ by these switching events at the output transformer @ 249 Amperes & some 300 Volts peak.

 

Whilst the light bulb may be absorbing some of these switching events, a solution may be found in decreasing the circuit impedance, a trial fix may be found by hiring a ‘site’ 230V / 230V isolation transformer form the hire shop. The transformer comes with a fixed 13 A socket and cable with 13A plug, very heavy.

 

Here I have to come ‘clean’, I do not have a washing machine on board and cannot test this, I am hoping this will help to get things working. A day’s hire may lead to a permanent solution, and possibly an answer?

 

Edited by Tractor
Incorrect statement
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Tractor said:

To run a motor from a sine wave inverter is problematic.

 

The inverter is making a sine wave at about 8 Volts using transistors switching on and off to create a sine wave shape to mimic the mains supply.

The 230 Volt output is derived from this 8 Volt sine wave by a ‘step up’ transformer. To make an inverter with a 2000 Watt capacity, (2000W/230V = 8.6 Amperes) and to make this current capacity from 8 Volts (230/8 = 29) that is 29 x 8.6 = 249 Amperes.

The inverter then is drawing 249 Amperes from the batteries, via the inverter to support a 2000 Watt load.

 

The washing motor is a commutating motor, thyristors switch on & off to regulate the speed of the motor at 100 times / second, each switching event turns the supply on creating both a current surge and Voltage spike in excess of the 230 Volt supply from the inverter.

 

In normal domestic installations the supply is softened by the transmission line which can run for many miles, spikes and surges are absorbed.

 

In a boat or RV, the transmission line may be just a metre, with no room to absorb the interference created by the motor, supply impedance is very high, the interference is like hitting a brick wall.

 

The inverter is being ‘hit’ by these switching events at the output transformer @ 249 Amperes & some 300 Volts peak.

 

Whilst the light bulb may be absorbing some of these switching events, a solution may be found in increasing the circuit impedance, a trial fix may be found by hiring a ‘site’ 230V / 230V isolation transformer form the hire shop. The transformer comes with a fixed 13 A socket and cable with 13A plug, very heavy.

 

Here I have to come ‘clean’, I do not have a washing machine on board and cannot test this, I am hoping this will help to get things working. A day’s hire may lead to a permanent solution, and possibly an answer?

 

Fortunately most inverters are now switch mode and don't have big transformers with the inherent induction problems. 2kW on a switch mode inverter will pull about 170A to 180A from the batteries.

I found that it was not motor starting that was the problem but the electronic programmer that failed to keep in step. My particular KWC 1300 washer would start and wash fine, do the rinses and intermediate spins but would start the final spin and then stop, think about it for a few minutes then start the spin again from the beginning and keep doing that until I turned it off or put an additional load on the inverter by leaving a light on. But then that inverter did have power save and would go to sleep if there was not enough load. I suspect that the load of the programmer alone in the pause fell away to next to nothing for too long causing the inverter to drop into power save mode.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

So guess what. This is fixed!!!!

 

O M Goodness I was so excited when it worked.

 

How? Well a long answer and a short answer. Skip to bottom for the short answer!

 

First I went to change the frequency and voltage using the jumpers. Thought that would be fairly straight forward, but reading the manual and looking at it, it is actually pretty involved and no way to see the results of your changes so trying all different setting was going to be pretty laborious and imprecise.

 

So I looked at connecting with Victron Connect. That is how I connect to the solar controllers via bluetooth and iphone. You need to get a Bluetooth dongle for the inverter though and plug it in to the RJ45 socket. Not particularly cheap but if it works I'll try it.

But... on further reading I discovered that connecting in this way only allows basic control, ie. On/Off and set shore power limit... NOT to change frequency and voltage. Hmmm, not much good.

 

To connect properly you need to connect to a laptop, still using Victron Connect app, but with a RJ45 cable... but it can't go straight into the computer, it needs to go into a little box that converts to a usb plug. A Victron Interface Cable MK3 VE.Bus to USB to be precise. Apparently if it is hard wired in this way you can change all the settings. I'm using Mac and an iPhone. It has to be on OS, won't work on IOS so not on phone or tablet.

 

OK fine, I need to get this working so I bought the VE.Bus to USB thing, then I went and bought a RJ45 cable to connect the two. Turned on my Mac, opened Victron connect and... Success!! There was my inverter showing all the details of what it was doing and access to all the settings.

 

The Zanussi machine says 230-240v 50Hz. The inverter was giving 230v at 50Hz. First attempt change volts to 240v... It seemed to be working a lot better... glimmer of hope?

 

But no. Half way through the same old stopping and hopeless clicking as the relay engaged and disengaged.

 

Tried very voltage in between and no joy. It was just the same as before.

 

Changed the frequency to 60Hz. Non starter. Machine just blank for 20s followed by an error light flashing.

 

So it looked like the end of the road. All I could tell was that when the clicking and general not working occurred was when the voltage was out of range, either dropping below 230 or jumping over 240v. It seemed like the Inverter was struggling to keep the voltage stable. sometimes it tanked down to like 130v briefly... which would have the machine clicking, but after the voltage returned it would continue to click, as if that episode had thrown it out.

 

After all the hope and excitement thinking I had a route to success I was pretty disappointed that nothing seemed to be having a positive effect.

 

Eventually I clicked the 3 little dots in the top corner and opened the About Software info. There was a little clickable link offering to update to latest Firmware.

Oh yes I thought, I ought to do that.

 

On completion the machine restarted and I jumped out of my skin to hear the noise the inverter made. It suddenly started buzzing harshly, crackling like a geiger counter. Rushed to the engine room expecting to see blue smoke coming out of the thing... what had I done??

 

But then, the washing machine ran, and then it went to rinse cycle and then it went into the spin cycle... and then it stopped..!

 

I couldn't believe it. Quickly I put another load on and sat there watching it for the full cycle. It worked absolutely fine, just like when on shore power. The inverter continued to make the new crackling sound but without any apparent problem.

 

Not wanting to get carried away I have waited a week or so and yes, I can report that the problem has been completely resolved. I expect the people at Victron were aware of the issue and have managed to resolve it with a software update, so...

 

The short answer is - I updated the firmware.

 

Seems obvious now doesn't it?!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Monkeybox said:

Seems obvious now doesn't it?!

 

No, it's not necessarily that obvious really, as lots of "my washing machine wont work" threads on here will attest. So well done you! :clapping:

 

Our boat had a brand new, unused Zanussi automatic washer fitted by the previous owner when we're bought her. It lit up, but wouldn't do anything more whether on inverter or shore supply. Unfortunately, the warranty had expired and the cost of a site visit from a washing machine mechanic would have outweighed it's limited value to me. Since it would have been all but impossible to get in out of the boat in one piece, I stripped it and skipped it. Expeditious, but ouch! We have a lovely little twin tub now, btw.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.