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Slight bulge in Trojans


jenevers

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On 19/10/2020 at 23:01, jenevers said:

My Trojan batteries have a slight bulge in the ends. Only about 3 mm and not along the long sides. Should I be worried?

 

3mm bulge across the short ends? Are you sure that's just happened and wasn't there originally? 3mm is a pretty small difference to determine by eye or have you actually measured a bulge which wasn't there before?

On 20/10/2020 at 12:21, jenevers said:

They have never been hot.....ever.

How old are they? I'd send Trojan an email and see what they think. Have a look on their website for contact details. It might save you throwing away good batteries

Edited by blackrose
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On 21/10/2020 at 07:55, Tony Brooks said:

Sulphate takes up more room that the oxide it formed from so bulging case ends often indicate badly sulphated batteries. In the old days the individual cell caps would rise up in the pitch sealant at the negative end.

 

Are you sure about that Tony?

 

If lead sulphate took up more room than spongy lead, then the batteries would bulge every time you significantly discharged them.

 

With glass cased batteries you can often see "growths" coming from the plates nd distorting the seperators. The growth is often where the grid on the plate has failed and allowed the active material to expand out.

Edited by cuthound
Phat phingers
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Just now, cuthound said:

 

Are you surwe about that Tony?

 

If lead sulphate took up more room than spongy lead, then the batteries would bulge every time you significantly discharged them.

 

With glass cased batteries you can often see "growths" coming from the plates nd distorting the seperators. The growth is often where the grid on the plate has failed and allowed the active material to expand out.

All I know is that nearly all the old pitch sealed external cell link batteries lifted the cell lid negative ends and when they cells were pulled out of the case for rebuilding the groups were far tighter in the case than when they were put in new and badly sulphated - as one would expect with dynamo charging. both College and and my apprentice master stated the bulging was caused by the sulphate and I have not found anything to counter that.

 

Thinking more about your observations. I don't know enough about chemistry to know if sulphur atoms take up more space than oxygen atoms but I strongly suspect they do so lead sulphate will take up more space than lead oxide. A short while googling was not helpful in resolving this. I also ask my self why would loose lead oxide expand away from the plates if something was not getting behind it and forcing it outwards. In any case as all the separators I worked with were ribbed there was space for loose material to fall into the sediment trap. That is apart from a very few ancient batteries with wooden separators.

 

Not saying either of us is right or wrong because I don't know. maybe one of our chemist members will be along to give an opinion. I simply do not know enough to be positive

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12 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

Not saying either of us is right or wrong because I don't know. maybe one of our chemist members will be along to give an opinion. I simply do not know enough to be positive

Not a clue here!

I don't know anything about the structure inside a lead acid.

Size of molecules is very complex and beyond my pay grade.

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7 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

They look quite solid but I didn't try pushing on them. Both were exactly the same at both ends. maybe I will ask the supplier?

 

I think I have seen some cases where the ends do taper inwards towards a raised corner piece, I would not call that a bulge.

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I've never felt the need to open up a battery, but if the end of the case is in thin plastic without ant internal ribs then it would not take much to bend it, thin plastic plates are not very strong. It is recommended practice to install batteries with a little gap between them, maybe that is to allow for a bit of deformation?

 

.....................Dave

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1 hour ago, Mike Adams said:

Just been and had a look at them. Bulge is about 3mm in the centre but if I push hard on the centre it does go flat. I guess this is OK then as it is not be pushed out by anything?

 

That’s what Trojan told me

If you can push the end-wall in with your finger, then it’s just the weight of the acid pushing against the unsupported polypropylene container. If you can’t, then the plates have began to buckle.

 

  • Greenie 1
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Trouble is I don’t know how long these bulges have been there. Not something I’ve ever thought to look for in the past.

44 minutes ago, dmr said:

I've never felt the need to open up a battery, but if the end of the case is in thin plastic without ant internal ribs then it would not take much to bend it, thin plastic plates are not very strong. It is recommended practice to install batteries with a little gap between them, maybe that is to allow for a bit of deformation?

 

.....................Dave

I think it’s probably more for ventilation.

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

I've never felt the need to open up a battery, but if the end of the case is in thin plastic without ant internal ribs then it would not take much to bend it, thin plastic plates are not very strong. It is recommended practice to install batteries with a little gap between them, maybe that is to allow for a bit of deformation?

 

.....................Dave

 

There are usually seperators between the plates and also between the case and the first and last plates. There purpose is to hold the plates firmly in place,  stop the plates from deforming under large charge/discharge currents and also to allow dpace for any shed active material to drop safely to the bottom of the cell, thus preventing premature shorts.

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The strange thing is....my starter battery, which also has an Episolar MPPT controller/ single 100W panel, constantly shows 14.5 volts just like my Trojans were showing. Are my 3 controllers  overcharging the batteries even though the float setting is 13.8v?

5 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

There are usually seperators between the plates and also between the case and the first and last plates. There purpose is to hold the plates firmly in place,  stop the plates from deforming under large charge/discharge currents and also to allow dpace for any shed active material to drop safely to the bottom of the cell, thus preventing premature shorts.

But if the material drops to the bottom, why is the bulge in the centre of the end panel??

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I don't think batteries, start batteries at any rate are anything like as good as they used to be when they had thicker ribbed casings and the exposed top cell connectors. I don't remember having to replace any of the batteries on my early vehicles, 1936 6v Ford Y type, 1954 Standard 8, series 1 80'' Land Rover. I and a girl friend and many friends held my 21st birthday party overnight in the depth of Epping forest, I drove the old Land Rover with everyone hanging on into it as far as possible, took it's battery off and carted it along with a bulb on a wire to a glade where we set up a battery record player and tent. To light the scene the old Land Rover battery ran a 21w indicator bulb on a wire dangling from a tree all night long, we sang songs all night and were raided by the police at about 5am, looking for drugs I expect, didn't find any , he, he,he. A ranger had found my old Land Rover, looking abbandoned. Despite it's battery powering that bulb all night long it started next day on the button. Dynamos on these old vehicles.  I fitted an ancient 6v car valve wireless set in the Standard which was 12v, by tapping 6v off the top connectors, which had no adverse effect on the battery.  Thems were the days.

Edited by bizzard
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3 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Not a clue here!

I don't know anything about the structure inside a lead acid.

Size of molecules is very complex and beyond my pay grade.

Bit of a guess here. Lead sulphate density is 6.29 g/cm3

 

Lead oxide density is between 8.3 and 9.5, depending on which type. 

From my O level chemistry that would imply a difference in volume but that might be unduly naïve when discussing what happens in a battery.  

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If they are wet batteries then it is possible to recover a sulphated battery to something close to "new". Much will depend on the age, construction and treatment the battery has received. Frankly I would not think it worth the effort with a standard modern battery.


Battery plates do change size as the battery is charged/discharged. Such changes introduce stresses into a plate structure which is not of necessity solid, they have to be made porous to work.  Charging/discharging and vibration will, over time, result in plates crumbling and shedding material to some degree. Such damage is not recoverable and can result in sections of a plate becoming electrically detached from the cell.


One major problem these days is obtaining fresh sulphuric acid of sufficient strength. The activities of certain evil people to use it as a weapon have rendered it all but impossible for the public to obtain.


The process  itself is simple but time consuming. The battery should be emptied and flushed several times with distilled water or at least demineralised water. The battery is then filled with more distilled water and put on a low charge. The point here is that "hard" sulphate crystals will not break down in battery strength acid but will at a much lower acidity. Over time the acidity of the electrolyte will rise. Use a hydrometer to check and when a detectable reading is indicated empty the battery, refill with distilled and repeat until no rise is seen. The battery may now be filled with the correct gravity of acid.


And yes, I have done it but it was with a very high quality battery with pocketed plates. Unlike the modern battery it was built to a standard not to a price.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, bizzard said:

I don't think batteries, start batteries at any rate are anything like as good as they used to be...

 

Or is that another one of those canal boaters myths, like how steel quality was better in the old days? Surely battery technology and QC in manufacture would only have improved? Assuming we're talking about decent batteries. If we're talking about cheap batteries then I might agree.

Edited by blackrose
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1 minute ago, blackrose said:

 

Or is that another one of those canal boaters myths, like how steel quality was better in the old days?

Having worked in a Daganite battery agency I suspect you are correct but, and its a big but, we have to remember that for years we have had alternators with a higher output at lower speeds than dynamos. This has a beneficial effect on battery life. When I started a fairly run of the mill 1500cc car would typically have a 13 plate battery of simmiar dimensions to today's 110Ah ones so even allowing for thicker hard rubber case they probably had a higher capacity than the typical 30 to 40 Ah battery used today (Ah used for simplicity , I know they are measured in CCA and reserve capacity). In those days one reckoned three years out of a car's battery was good. Nowadays we get 10 years or more, even on boats.

 

I think you may well be correct.

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In the old days of motoring, the dynamo days, cars charged and discharged their batteries more gently. The starter motor, hooter and headlamps used the most power, although headlamps were normally only used for unlit roads, rarely on lit up roads, in fact if a car came towards you with headlamps blazing on a lit up road it was usual for the dazzled driver to flash them to turn them of, wasting the battery was the common saying. Nowadays it's one big horrid dazzle of headlamps, during broad daylight too.

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28 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Having worked in a Daganite battery agency I suspect you are correct but, and its a big but, we have to remember that for years we have had alternatorsm mwith a higher output at lower speeds than dynamos. This has a beneficial effect on battery life. When I started a fairly run of the mill 1500cc car would typically have a 13 plate battery of simmiar dimensions to today's 110Ah ones so even allowing for thicker hard rubber case they probably had a higher capacity than the typical 30 to 40 Ah battery used today (Ah used for simplicity , I know they are measured in CCA and reserve capacity). In those days one reckoned three years out of a car's battery was good. Nowadays we get 10 years or more, even on boats.

 

I think you may well be correct.

Dagenite batteries were one of the best. I used to get them along with other electrical bits and bobs from A.A.Goodings of Goodmayes. Smith Motors BMC, B/L main dealer Lucas counter for Lucas stuff, also in Goodmayes.

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