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Winter and Diesel


DavidPeckham

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Fortunately my diesel tank has a small box shaped sump in the centre of the base so I can draw off the diesel in the bottom of the tank. This summer the diesel looked like cloudy apple juice. I treated it with Marine 16 last year so maybe this has emulsified(?) any water that was present into the diesel. Engine has run OK with it.

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12 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

It can be more than just hassle. When we had problems it also cost £2500 to fix (fortunately our insurance covered most of that)

 

I remember, you had no idea how it got there or from which supplier and nothing (no known chemicals) killed it - didn't it just keep growing ?

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18 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

It can be more than just hassle. When we had problems it also cost £2500 to fix (fortunately our insurance covered most of that)

Crikey. Was there engine damage or was that for tank cleaning, old fuel disposal and everything else?

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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I remember, you had no idea how it got there or from which supplier and nothing (no known chemicals) killed it - didn't it just keep growing ?

Aye, but he also had a hull eaten away by vicious electric bugs in 12 months ....dont moor near Keeping Up.!!

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2 hours ago, Timx said:

Nothing, it was a free lecture on how diesel degenerates. I can understand how people do not wish to comment on this forum.

 

It was a straight question, nothing to do with forum politics or other, you have been here quite some time and not a wind up merchant.

Given the amount of money companies spend on paying people to justify their products.....a free lecturer at a marine show with lots of people selling additives, filters, treatments and snake oil is probably being paid by someone.

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13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I remember, you had no idea how it got there or from which supplier and nothing (no known chemicals) killed it - didn't it just keep growing ?

Yes, it started when somebody picked the lock in the filler cap and siphoned away half our diesel during the winter. It just kept growing and no chemicals would kill it.

6 minutes ago, Bee said:

Crikey. Was there engine damage or was that for tank cleaning, old fuel disposal and everything else?

There was no engine damage. Just several ineffective cleanings and polishing, disposal of a total of about 1000 litres of contaminated fuel (as the tank was refilled after each cleaning), new filters etc, and finally a really thorough steam-cleaning.

4 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Aye, but he also had a hull eaten away by vicious electric bugs in 12 months ....dont moor near Keeping Up.!!

Good advice there!

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1 hour ago, jenevers said:

Fortunately my diesel tank has a small box shaped sump in the centre of the base so I can draw off the diesel in the bottom of the tank. This summer the diesel looked like cloudy apple juice. I treated it with Marine 16 last year so maybe this has emulsified(?) any water that was present into the diesel. Engine has run OK with it.

Isnt it Marine 16 which makes the water settle out, its the other one (whose name escapes me) which makes the water emulsify so that it is burned with the diesel?

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I am not so sure that currently diesel keeps so long as it did in that past . Bio diesel  is added in ever increasing quantities and this may degrade or attract moisture.

 

So I am not sure keeping the tank filled over winter for a boat that is little used  is essential -  it could be better to add fresh fuel in the spring.

 

I do use a fuel additive and have changed over a  year ago to Clearwinner LA88 which absorbs water into the fuel  (but bear in mind no additive can deal with significant quantities of water in the fuel).

https://www.clear-winner.co.uk/products/marine/

 

PS Yes water in fuel can cause tanks to  corrode at the base . I know of a few cases.

 

 

Edited by MartynG
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22 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Diesel itself contains around 12% water (so you fill up with 200 litres of diesel and you are actually 'putting into' your tank 24 litres of water)

Do you have reference for that please .......... it seems a vert high percentage .

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3 hours ago, LadyG said:

So, having used Marine 16, occasionally, will there now be a 'bubble' of water at the bottom of the tank, just as one might expect if no additive had been used, but my water is free of bugs?

Almost certainly unless you drain it out annually. Difficult on a narrowboat bot possible if you use a syphon, pump that can cope with rusty flakes or an oil extractor through the filler. If you swapped to an emulsifier like Fuelset & others you can end up a sort of sludge in the bottom of the tank. I suspect its when there is a lot of water present.

2 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Do you have reference for that please .......... it seems a vert high percentage .

That 12% might have come from the content of the FAME in DERV.

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22 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I really don't know, I've never had a boat long enough to find out.

Just keeping the tanks topped up is the solution.

 

Diesel itself contains around 12% water (so you fill up with 200 litres of diesel and you are actually 'putting into' your tank 24 litres of water)

Leaving an 'air-gap' on a partly filled tank gives plenty of opportunity for condensation to form.

 

You really want to buy from a supplier with a 'fast turnover' so you are getting 'fresh diesel' and not the old mixture of water and diesel from the bottom of his / her / its tank. 

60-100 parts per million of water, depending on temperature is about the limits for dissolved water in diesel fuel before it separates.  Additives and Fame may  additional water load as an emulsion but 12% is way way too high. I specified aviation fuel water coalescing filters, they would absorb water and block, on all the diesel pumps supplying the milk tanker fleet that fed the factory that processed 25% of the NZ milk production, up to, 2.000.000 litres of milk a day because keeping those 360 road tankers and trailers working 2 x 12hr shifts per day collecting the milk was vital to the NZ economy, and a lot more vital, to me keeping my job. A cup full of water in any form would block those filters, and there was only about a dozen pumps.

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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Do you have reference for that please .......... it seems a vert high percentage .

I 'asked google' "how much water is in gas oil" and that was the answer. (ignoring all the information about barrels of oil vs barrels of water produced from an oil well.

 

The EN specification is that when 'manufactured' it can contain no more than 200mg of water per Kg of fuel, but storage, transport etc etc all add water content and it is not unusual to get up to 12% by the time it is used.

 

Water that gets into a storage tank is the biggest cause of fuel issues with diesel engines, generators, vehicles, plant and boilers. Over 25% of generator breakdowns are caused by bad fuel, not mechanical failure. But how does this water get there?

Diesel and any stored fuel can become contaminated by water from several different causes.  It is unlikely to be delivered into the tank from the oil distribution supply chain.  This is due to the monitoring at the refinery and the vast volume that goes through the tankers.  The fuel is regularly tested during the downstream delivery process, avoiding most issues before reaching the tank.

 

Faulty lids or caps, poorly fitted vent pipes or general damage to the tank fitting cause water to get into tanks.  The other factor is the diesel composition.  Since 2011 diesel fuel in the UK has been blended with up to 7% biodiesel, also known as Fatty Acid Methyl Esters (FAME).  This blended diesel is hygroscopic meaning it absorbs moisture from the surrounding air.

Temperature changes in the tank between day and night and sunnier days will also allow the formation of condensation in the tank.  The condensate forms on the sidewalls of the tank, it then runs down into the fuel, collecting at the bottom of the tank.

 

Detecting free water in the bottom of a diesel tank can be achieved with a very simple DIY test with water detection paste and a dip stick. This is an instant ‘yes-no’ visual test.  To detect relative humidity or PPM of water, we need to use electronic sensors.  We sample fuel quality using sensors installed in the pipework or as part of test equipment.

It is possible to send a sample to a lab for analysis and would be more accurate, however field testing for water content is a reliable test.  This is because of changes in the diesel condition between the sample acquisition and the lab test.  Diesel saturation point will rise with temperature, so a sample taken at 5°C will have decreased free water and relative humidity than in a lab at 20°C.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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15 hours ago, mark99 said:

What about diesel tanks that are situated under the bote floor and well underwater with a non metallic fuel hose?. The temp is a bit more stable there.

I'm lucky enough to have a boat with a tank like that, 350 litres either side of the engine beds with the top a good 20cm below the water line.  I have somewhat presumed that condensation in the tank is not the issue it is where the tank is part of the counter or otherwise above the waterline.

 

22 years and no problems yet.

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15 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As  always there are opposing opinions and experiences.

 

I filled my boat up 5 years ago (2800 litres) and due to family problems, car accidents and cancer, we have not had much use of her since. We have finally got out this Summer for some cruising and used about 500 litres (10 litres per hour at cruise) and have not had (hope this doesn't backfire) a single fuel problem.

I have a big bowser at home that we use for the tractors and digger. Our fuel usage has again been at a minimum - that fuel is getting on for 8 or 9 years old and again, no problems.

 

Maybe one of the reasons for retaining its 'quality' is that I specify 'FAME free Gas Oil' so dont get the problems of Bug, water and leaking rubber seals (due to attack by FAME Gas OIl)

Sadly FAME-free is no longer available as refineries are compelled to meet Government targets with 12% biodiesel in the frame for 2024, although actual % biodiesel can vary consignment to consignment as it is averaged out across total production.

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1 minute ago, fatmanblue said:

I'm lucky enough to have a boat with a tank like that, 350 litres either side of the engine beds with the top a good 20cm below the water line.  I have somewhat presumed that condensation in the tank is not the issue it is where the tank is part of the counter or otherwise above the waterline.

 

22 years and no problems yet.

It's good you have not had problems (and so far in 30+ years neither have I), however, the condensation is formed because of heat / cold cycles, I presume your engine 'hole' gets quite warm when in use, meaning that the the tank will be getting warm, when you switch off for the night it cools and condensation forms.

 

Have you even dipped your tank with any water detecting paste to see what is really in the bottom of your tank ?

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16 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Sadly FAME-free is no longer available as refineries are compelled to meet Government targets with 12% biodiesel in the frame for 2024, although actual % biodiesel can vary consignment to consignment as it is averaged out across total production.

That's interesting as the agricultural market (as far as I know) is still sourcing FAME free due to the fact that much old machinery is still in use and the FAME gas oil attacks the rubber seals in some of the old pumps etc.

The justification was also that machinery can stand for many months (ie a combine may only be used in July and August and stands for the other 10 months) and the FAME diesel absorbs water creating the 'bug'.

 

Maybe it has changed in the last couple of years - I don't know.

 

Edit to add :

 

It looks like the old levels of FAME (less than 5%) are still available if you shop around :

Article dated 5th August 2020

 

You may remember in the autumn of 2019 there was a lot of talk about the new higher levels of FAME in white and red diesel. Users of agricultural machinery will certainly remember the repercussions of the new higher biofuel levels, which caused numerous problems with blocked filters and increased water contamination.

 

Towards the spring of 2020 the number of customers reporting problems as a result of FAME content in fuel started to reduce again. Many are now able to continue working and using equipment as they would have before the problems of autumn 2019, a relief to those in the agricultural industry who rely on their machinery. However, the issue of FAME content in white and red diesel is an on-going problem and isn’t one which is likely to disappear in the near future. Trade associations and industry bodies are still lobbying government and continue to work with refineries to find a long-term solution to the problem.

 

 

Due to the wide spread problem and severity of issues faced by affected customers when FAME was increased to up-to-7%, as a temporary measure some oil refineries agreed to reduce the FAME content back down, whilst the problems could be investigated and a suitable resolution found. This reduction lead to a drop in the number of issues being reported and allowed many customers to continue using their machinery like normal.

 

These temporary levels of FAME are still in effect and at the moment there is no update on how long they will remain in place for. Your local supplier will be able to advise you of the likely quantity of FAME in the fuel you purchase. Knowing this would allow you to put in place any additional best practices for oil storage and maintenance which may help to reduce the potential for issues caused by higher FAME levels. If you haven’t checked with your oil supplier yet it may be worth doing so, most will be happy to share this information with their customers.

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 minute ago, MartynG said:

I have been assuming that for some time but still find some people claim they can buy FAME free fuel.

To be totally accurate you can still buy a product that is the same as the old red diesel – i.e. with a high sulphur content and less well refined. It is intended for the marine market and standby generators and the like. Not generally available at the pumps but when I last asked it was still available from my supplier at a coupe of pence more than standard gas oil.

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That's interesting as the agricultural market (as far as I know) is still sourcing FAME free due to the fact that much old machinery is still in use and the FAME gas oil attacks the rubber seals in some of the old pumps etc.

The justification was also that machinery can stand for many months (ie a combine may only be used in July and August and stands for the other 10 months) and the FAME diesel absorbs water creating the 'bug'.

 

Maybe it has changed in the last couple of years - I don't know.

It is generally reckoned that at concentrations of up to 12% there isn't a problem with biodiesel  attacking rubber seals in the fuel supply components of older diesel equipment.

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5 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

 

It is generally reckoned that at concentrations of up to 12% there isn't a problem with biodiesel  attacking rubber seals in the fuel supply components of older diesel equipment.

 

That may be 'the industry's statement' but agricultural user have found differently - see the edit I added to my prevuous post.

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24 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That may be 'the industry's statement' but agricultural user have found differently - see the edit I added to my prevuous post.

I think the cause of seal failure may be more to do with the loss of sulphur in the fuel. Sulphur caused seal to slowly swell over the years so when when worn they still sealed. With low sulphur fuels the sulphur gradually leached out of the rubber so they shrunk a little, hence the leak. 

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