Future of electric canal boats

[peterboat]

49 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

That is what the li k in my post #82 was about.

 

Synthesized from algae, unlike other biofuels  they don't compete for land or crops and reduce the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.

 

What's not to like?

Only until we burn it, it was on Google again yesterday the problem is it didn't seem any further forward than it was a couple of years ago which is a shame. In the meantime Dacia has announced a cheap city car at 10k euros so progress continues in the car would to make affordable electric cars ? 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

I don't think that looking at the car industry is the best guide - canal boat engines have developed on the back of truck engines and we should be looking there for better guidance for future methods and timescales. 

 

I cannot think of many 1.0 litre or 2.0 litre truck engines, the vast majority of modern boat engines seem to be based on small 3 and 4 cylinder 'plant' engines (diggers, dumpers, tractors etc) and in previous era's the venerable BMC car, 'taxi' & tractor  engines were widely used.

 

Plant 'engines' currently look to be (so far unsuccessfully) going to battery power.

 

I do have a pair of 6 litre straight 6 'Ford Cargo' truck engines in my boat but then I no longer have a 'canal boat'

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I cannot think of many 1.0 litre or 2.0 litre truck engines, the vast majority of modern boat engines seem to be based on small 3 and 4 cylinder 'plant' engines (diggers, dumpers, tractors etc) and in previous era's the venerable BMC car, 'taxi' & tractor  engines were widely used.

 

Plant 'engines' currently look to be (so far unsuccessfully) going to battery power.

 

I do have a pair of 6 litre straight 6 'Ford Cargo' truck engines in my boat but then I no longer have a 'canal boat'

When red diesel goes from sites I think it will focus their minds on finding an alternative. Though in reality they could use full bio diesel as a lot of plant equipment is hardly cutting edge diesel engines 

Edited October 16, 2020 by peterboat

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

That is what the li k in my post #82 was about.

 

Synthesized from algae, unlike other biofuels  they don't compete for land or crops and reduce the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.

 

What's not to like?

 

Indeed and following my post #26 it received the typical responses of 'not practical' 'costs twice as much' 'inefficient to produce' etc etc.

 

If the 'user' is prepared to pay 2 or 3x the current cost of diesel to save having to scrap their current engine and replace with a £20k or £30k (or however much it costs)  I'm sure most would take the Efuel.

You can buy a lot of EDiesel at (say) £3 per litre for £30k. I'd suggest that 10,000 hours is as much as many boaters will do in a lifetime, and it is paid out gradually, rather than having to find a big lump sum means that it becomes affordable.

 

Whats's not to like ?

[Higgs]

 

I wouldn't pay to have something installed that is no solution to the current setup of diesel. A battery has always been a stop gap form of power. That's not to say I wouldn't look forward to fossil fuels being abandoned. I don't think battery power is the way to go. I'm also not keen on land for food crops being used to grow crops for fuel. I would have gone for an hydrogen fuel, but apparently, it isn't that easy to split water to get it. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Higgs

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, Higgs said:

I would have gone for an hydrogen fuel, but apparently, it isn't that easy to split water to get it. 

 

Oh, it's trivial to split water to get hydrogen and oxygen.  It's just a lot more expensive than steam reformation of methane, so the big producers don't bother.

 

There are some pilot projects to crack water with "excess" renewable electricity rather than just pay the windfarms to shut down, but nothing on a major commercial scale yet.

 

It sort of makes sense, because if you are producing hydrogen from "waste" windpower the fact it's very inefficient in terms of energy use doesn't mean it's economically pointless.

[peterboat]

13 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Oh, it's trivial to split water to get hydrogen and oxygen.  It's just a lot more expensive than steam reformation of methane, so the big producers don't bother.

 

There are some pilot projects to crack water with "excess" renewable electricity rather than just pay the windfarms to shut down, but nothing on a major commercial scale yet.

 

It sort of makes sense, because if you are producing hydrogen from "waste" windpower the fact it's very inefficient in terms of energy use doesn't mean it's economically pointless.

Exactly I think hydrogen will have a part to play, but it will be a red herring to think inland boats will be that part.  We are to small a number, boaters don't treat 12 volts with respect, so think of the disaster that will happen when they play with a fuel cell!

[IanD]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

When red diesel goes from sites I think it will focus their minds on finding an alternative. Though in reality they could use full bio diesel as a lot of plant equipment is hardly cutting edge diesel engines 

The problem with bio-diesel is that it's not really that green when you look at what is needed (including the energy used, and considering the land needed and what was cut down to grow the crops) to grow/harvest/process it -- yes it's somewhat better than fossil fuels, but nowhere near as good as electricity from renewables. It's basically a sticking-plaster panacea for people and industries hooked on the diesel drug. Plant equipment will go battery-powered when cars do, for exactly the same reasons and using exactly the same technology.

 

As Alan said, of course existing diesel engine users would prefer this solution because they don't have to change and it costs them less than re-equipping. But governments (and car/truck/boat/ship industries) have to look at the bigger picture including the impact on the environment of growing and processing all the crops (or algae, which is difficlut to scale up to the vast amounts required) needed to make it -- as I said it's a temporary sticking-plaster solution which the world needs to resist the siren call of where possible because it's an inferior half-way house to using renewable power.

Edited October 16, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

The problem with bio-diesel is that it's not really that green when you look at what is needed (including the energy used, and considering the land needed and what was cut down to grow the crops) to grow/harvest/process it -- yes it's somewhat better than fossil fuels, but nowhere near as good as electricity from renewables. It's basically a sticking-plaster panacea for people and industries hooked on the diesel drug. Plany equipment will go battery-powered when cars do, for exactly the same reasons and using exactly the same technology.

Danny a friend of mine is a plant engineer he says they arnt even thinking about the problem! He thinks that it could easily work and would save a fortune in theft of diesel, I think that they will just pass the cost on if they can get away with it 

[cuthound]

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

The problem with bio-diesel is that it's not really that green when you look at what is needed (including the energy used, and considering the land needed and what was cut down to grow the crops) to grow/harvest/process it -- yes it's somewhat better than fossil fuels, but nowhere near as good as electricity from renewables. It's basically a sticking-plaster panacea for people and industries hooked on the diesel drug. Plany equipment will go battery-powered when cars do, for exactly the same reasons and using exactly the same technology.

 

The efuel is based on algae, can be grown on water, or unusable marshy  farm land so.doesnt compete with arable crops.

 

It doesnt require the mining of scarce minerals or the scrapping and replacement of existing vehicles which have already been manufactured, so in many senses it is greener than making new electric vehicles.

Edited October 16, 2020 by cuthound
Clarification

[Higgs]

For the next five months, my stove will be on. Some of the heat that is being produced is being converted into electricity on a small scale - to power the eco fan. Has anyone produced a battery charger that can utilise this heat, and use of peltier elements. Don't think it could be that difficult. 

 

 

 

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

The efuel is based on algae, can be grown on water, or unusable marshy  farm land so.doesnt compete with arable crops.

 

It doesnt require the mining of scarce minerals or the scrapping and replacement of existing vehicles which have already been manufactured, so.in many senses it is greener than making new vehicles.

So ask yourself, if this is so brilliant and easy, why hasn't the world already adopted it on a massive scale?

 

It's because apart from finding the (huge) space needed to grow the algae there is a huge investment needed in both plant and energy to convert this to biofuel -- it all looks fine in the lab, but would need truly massive new industrial "refineries" building (at a big monetary and energy cost, and they have to go somewhere the NIMBYs don't mind) to do the processing.

 

And nobody -- businesses or governments -- wants to do this because it is rightly seen as only a stopgap solution to renewables, so the expensive refineries would become obsolete long before they've paid for themselves. The people who want to keep their diesel vehicles to avoid replacing them are not the ones who would have to pay for building a  huge biofuel industry.

 

Exactly the same applies to many of the other ideas people put forward -- very little uses any fundamentally new technology, it's almost all stuff that's been possible for many years, so why isn't it being widely adopted?

 

It's because either it doesn't make technological/emissions sense when the big picture is considered (where *does* all that hydrogen or biofuel come from?), or it just doesn't make any business sense when it has to compete against cheap (and getting cheaper by the year) renewable energy from solar/windfarms and batteries, or both.

 

If you want to see where things are going, look at where all the investment in the energy business is going, because this goes into things that will work economically and deliver reduced emissions. And it's almost all going into solar/wind power (with some hydro/tidal/wave where appropriate) and batteries/electric motors, for both transport and everything else.

 

[please don't restart the argument about what happens when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine, everyone knows that either backup generation or mass energy storage or nuclear is needed, but the entire world is assuming that this problem will be solved and again throwing billions at making this happen]

 

This isn't a hippy green treehugger viewpoint, it's one being backed by large parts of the world economy -- and resisted by the fossil fuel industry (via lobbying and promoting some of the "alternatives" being mentioned here) because they can see the end of their industry that has made so much money for them over the years. Nothing wrong with making money, but their way of doing it is obsolete.

Edited October 16, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

14 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

The efuel is based on algae, can be grown on water, or unusable marshy  farm land so.doesnt compete with arable crops.

 

It doesnt require the mining of scarce minerals or the scrapping and replacement of existing vehicles which have already been manufactured, so in many senses it is greener than making new electric vehicles.

It might be ok for some diesels,, but Bio diesel and modern high pressure common rail are an expensive mix  high pressure fuel pumps and injector problems are an issue now on normal diesel with bio added full bio is something I would not do.

But for boats it will be a different problem I used full bio diesel for 3 years and diesel bug is a serious problem which wasnt cured by additives so the efuel will I suspect have the same problems

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

he argument about what happens when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine, everyone knows that either backup generation or mass energy storage or nuclear is needed, but the entire world is assuming that this problem will be solved and again throwing billions at making this happen

In September 2020 they 'ran out of electricity' and now again in October :

 

In mid-September the company issued an official warning to the electricity market that its ‘buffer’ of power reserves had fallen below 500MW and it may need to call on more power plants to help prevent a blackout.

 

October :

National Grid has warned that Britain’s electricity will be in short supply over the next few days after a string of unplanned power plant outages and unusually low wind speeds this week.

The electricity system operator said it will take action to “make sure there is enough generation” during the cold weather spell to prevent a second major blackout in as many years.

“Unusually low wind output coinciding with a number of generator outages means the cushion of spare capacity we operate the system with has been reduced,” the company told its Twitter followers.

“We’re exploring measures and actions to make sure there is enough generation available to increase our buffer of capacity.”

 

Wat will happen when it gets colder and we need more 'leccy but the wind stops again ?

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

In September 2020 they 'ran out of electricity' and now again in October :

 

In mid-September the company issued an official warning to the electricity market that its ‘buffer’ of power reserves had fallen below 500MW and it may need to call on more power plants to help prevent a blackout.

 

October :

National Grid has warned that Britain’s electricity will be in short supply over the next few days after a string of unplanned power plant outages and unusually low wind speeds this week.

The electricity system operator said it will take action to “make sure there is enough generation” during the cold weather spell to prevent a second major blackout in as many years.

“Unusually low wind output coinciding with a number of generator outages means the cushion of spare capacity we operate the system with has been reduced,” the company told its Twitter followers.

“We’re exploring measures and actions to make sure there is enough generation available to increase our buffer of capacity.”

 

Wat will happen when it gets colder and we need more 'leccy but the wind stops again ?

Yeah, and your point is what exactly? Storage/buffering solutions aren't there yet, but will be by the time renewable energy dominates. Nobody in the global energy industry thinks this won't happen, and they're betting trillions of dollars that it will. Do you know better?

 

I did say "please don't bring this up" and explained why, maybe you missed that bit ?

Edited October 16, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

In September 2020 they 'ran out of electricity' and now again in October :

 

In mid-September the company issued an official warning to the electricity market that its ‘buffer’ of power reserves had fallen below 500MW and it may need to call on more power plants to help prevent a blackout.

 

October :

National Grid has warned that Britain’s electricity will be in short supply over the next few days after a string of unplanned power plant outages and unusually low wind speeds this week.

The electricity system operator said it will take action to “make sure there is enough generation” during the cold weather spell to prevent a second major blackout in as many years.

“Unusually low wind output coinciding with a number of generator outages means the cushion of spare capacity we operate the system with has been reduced,” the company told its Twitter followers.

“We’re exploring measures and actions to make sure there is enough generation available to increase our buffer of capacity.”

 

Wat will happen when it gets colder and we need more 'leccy but the wind stops again ?

So they didnt run out they fired up other generators which dont normally operate? Nothing wrong in using fossil fuels in emergency until sufficient wind turbines are grown and battery storage put into place

[IanD]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

So they didnt run out they fired up other generators which dont normally operate? Nothing wrong in using fossil fuels in emergency until sufficient wind turbines are grown and battery storage put into place

Please stop. If you want to debate this, go and start another thread.

[Guest]

Just now, IanD said:

Please stop. If you want to debate this, go and start another thread.

Sorry but I'm afraid It's not for you or anybody else to try and dictate what runs on a thread. Even if you opened/started it.

 

You've had pretty much 5 pages now of 'on topic' stuff so it's done pretty well better than a lot of threads manage.

[IanD]

Just now, The Happy Nomad said:

Sorry but I'm afraid It's not for you or anybody else to try and dictate what runs on a thread. Even if you opened/started it.

 

You've had pretty much 5 pages now of 'on topic' stuff so it's done pretty well better than a lot of threads manage.

So you want every thread to turn into the same old pointless and endless vituperative arguments about the same old subjects (politics, renewables, you name it...) driven by repeated posts from people with incompatible viewpoints, all of who want to have the last word?

 

Does it occur to you that this is exactly why lots of people with valuable expertise and knowledge give up on forums like this?

[peterboat]

5 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Sorry but I'm afraid It's not for you or anybody else to try and dictate what runs on a thread. Even if you opened/started it.

 

You've had pretty much 5 pages now of 'on topic' stuff so it's done pretty well better than a lot of threads manage.

It has I am pointing out the problems with bio diesel from personnel  use and the new efuel Alan likes, I think it will have the same problems, but it might not if engineered correctly, it will also use carbon dioxide in its growing which is a plus, if its making can be done with surplus wind turbine electric its another positive all options have to be looked at 

Edited October 16, 2020 by peterboat

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, IanD said:

So you want every thread to turn into the same old pointless and endless vituperative arguments about the same old subjects (politics, renewables, you name it...) driven by repeated posts from people with incompatible viewpoints, all of who want to have the last word?

 

Does it occur to you that this is exactly why lots of people with valuable expertise and knowledge give up on forums like this?

It's the nature of the beast.

 

As for valuable experience? There is still lot's of it on here I think and what I see happening is as people leave for whatever reason other people seem to join and bring their's.

Edited October 16, 2020 by The Happy Nomad

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It has I am pointing out the problems with bio diesel from personnel  use and the new efuel Alan likes will I suspect have the same problems, but it might not if engineered correctly, it will also use carbon dioxide in its growing which is a plus, if its making can be done with surplus wind turbine electric its another positive all options have to be looked at 

All true. Now follow the money...

1 minute ago, The Happy Nomad said:

It's the nature of the beast.

 

As for valuable experience? There is still lot's of it on here I think and what I see happening is as people leave for whatever reason other people seem to join and bring there's.

So what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander -- it's not up to you to tell me that I shouldn't ask people nicely to stay on subject ?

Edited October 16, 2020 by IanD

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

All true. Now follow the money...

So what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander -- it's not up to you to tell me that I shouldn't ask people to stay on subject ?

I didn't say you couldn't ask, of course you can.

 

I said you can't dictate as to whether people head your request or not. Others will dictate that.

 

Now do you want to heed your own request and get back on topic?

 

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by The Happy Nomad

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Now do you want to heed your own request and get back on topic?

Yes, please do the same ?

 

Does anyone else have any useful ideas about how to make this work? Dave and a couple of others have made some useful suggestions, I can't believe nobody else doesn't have some good ideas...

 

As Dave said this breaks down onto two basic problems, the boats and charging. I don't think there are any technical problems with the boats , hopefully the new car/used car/banger simile will solve the economic ones over time (not today) though it still leaves the problem of people who can't even afford to replace a banger (but they can afford to live on a boat? Hmm...)

 

So it all comes down to the recharging -- how, where, how many, capacity, who pays for it. The traditional/historic/fuel boat issue needs sorting too. Suggestions on a postcard...

Edited October 16, 2020 by IanD

[Guest]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

So it all comes down to the recharging -- how, where, how many, who pays for it. Suggestions on a postcard...

The bulk of the infrastructure costs surely must be borne by the licence payer??

 

Grants from general taxation would I think be limited at best. The perception of the general public would be that they were subsidising a relatively wealthy persons leisure pursuit. I'm not saying that perception is correct but that is how politicians and the people will see it. It also ignores those that live on their boats.

 

They would view it differently from building a network to support vehicle charging for example.

 

So sadly I can see a big rise in licence costs on the horizon.