Future of electric canal boats

[IanD]

9 hours ago, Oddjob said:

marina I am in now has a very low power feed and the power company wants £200,000 to upgrade so not all marinas will find this a option.

Correct, anywhere that is miles off the beaten track and has no (or little) grid power nearby will have this problem. Bear in mind that the power needed to feed a hundred or more moored boats is at least 10x higher than that needed to serve passing boats or hire fleets, so the need for *big* power is really one for residential marinas like this (and is the same as it is now). not for cruising electric canal boats.

 

However this lack of access to power clearly isn't the case for all towns and villages with even a hundred inhabitants, the power needed for boat charging is the same as one or a few houses (depending on number of charging points and rates), and even many isolated houses out in the country have mains power (and power lines cross the canal in many places, hence all the "no fishing" signs). So for the vast majority of the system this shouldn't be a problem.

 

Neither is how to design/manufacture/install robust secure charging points with easy and secure payment methods, because this will already be done for the 1000x more charging points needed for cars. We don't have to solve this problem any more than we have to build rolling mills to provide the steel plate to build boats from, somebody else with far more money does that and we get to use the result for free.

 

There will be exceptions like the marina quoted -- but of course it's quite possible that there is canalside power nearby (within a couple of miles) but not at the marina, and that's where canalside charging stations would go. Work would need to be done to find out how much of the canal system has stretches with no access to the grid for more than a few miles, but I expect there isn't much when you allow for towns/villages and everywhere that the grid crosses either buried under roads or on overhead wires (the relatively low-voltage ones, not the UHV grid with pylons).

Edited October 17, 2020 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

49 minutes ago, IanD said:

Correct, anywhere that is miles off the beaten track and has no (or little) grid power nearby will have this problem.

When we had the house built we had to have 'power' run down to it It was approximately 300 yards from the power lines (not Pylons).

We needed a new transformer and a trench, trunking and 300 yards of split concentric cable.

Quoted Price £25,000.

 

Having a digger, I asked for a price with me doing the ground works, they dropped the price to £20,000 which we ended up doing.

 

Just because a power line is 'within a couple of miles' does not mean that it will be economic to get power to the canal-side. There will be a need for a transformer to step down the transmission voltage* to 230v. You cannot just 'splice a bit of cable in' and connect it to a 'socket'.

 

*Overhead & underground power lines in both rural and urban areas run at up to 138Kv (EHV - Plyons - goes up to around 800Kv)

[magnetman]

Electric boat propulsion also has a positive psychological effect in that you start to enjoy the process of moving over water as there is no droning noise. And you don't feel the "endless miles" entitlement that comes with diesel engines. 

 

At the moment electric is a significant minority but over time that will change and eventually we will have a situation where nobody is in a hurry to get anywhere and all inland boats will move around at the same sort of speed as ducks. 

 

Obviously ducks also fly very fast but in boat terms there is fundamentally no need to travel at anything more than about 2mph. 

 

If, and it is a big if, all canal  boats were limited to this 2mph by range anxiety then the whole thing would work better. 

 

 

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

When we had the house built we had to have 'power' run down to it It was approximately 300 yards from the power lines (not Pylons).

We needed a new transformer and a trench, trunking and 300 yards of split concentric cable.

Quoted Price £25,000.

 

Having a digger, I asked for a price with me doing the ground works, they dropped the price to £20,000 which we ended up doing.

 

Just because a power line is 'within a couple of miles' does not mean that it will be economic to get power to the canal-side. There will be a need for a transformer to step down the transmission voltage* to 230v. You cannot just 'splice a bit of cable in' and connect it to a 'socket'.

 

*Overhead & underground power lines in both rural and urban areas run at up to 138Kv (EHV - Plyons - goes up to around 800Kv)

I think you misunderstood -- what I meant was that within a couple of miles *along the canal* there would usually be grid power available, so that's where the charging station should be to avoid having to run new mains for a couple of miles which as you say is going to be expensive.

 

The overhead lines that cross canals regularly (where the "no fishing" signs are) are usually lower voltage ones on poles (230V single-phase or 415V 3-phase) which can easily be tapped into (if they have enough spare capacity), not EHV grid ones on big pylons (133kV/275kV/400kV). If they're 11kV like a local district/town supply (these are often buried under roads, not overhead) than a transformer can be added, this obviously adds cost but not as much as running cable for miles.

 

That's why I was asking how many stretches of canal there are where the places where power is available are too far apart -- which gets into the question about how far apart is too far. I guess you wouldn't want bigger gaps than between water points, so maybe 10 miles as an upper limit, 5 miles would be better. Anyone know what these numbers are for water points?

Edited October 17, 2020 by IanD

[IanD]

24 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Electric boat propulsion also has a positive psychological effect in that you start to enjoy the process of moving over water as there is no droning noise. And you don't feel the "endless miles" entitlement that comes with diesel engines. 

 

At the moment electric is a significant minority but over time that will change and eventually we will have a situation where nobody is in a hurry to get anywhere and all inland boats will move around at the same sort of speed as ducks. 

 

Obviously ducks also fly very fast but in boat terms there is fundamentally no need to travel at anything more than about 2mph. 

 

If, and it is a big if, all canal  boats were limited to this 2mph by range anxiety then the whole thing would work better. 

 

 

But there's no need to do this, if they went by the normal "no breaking wash" rule (or even "no big waves, breaking or not" which is what I tend to use) they'd be travelling at the same speed as diesel boats -- 3mph or less on a normal canal -- without a range problem once charging points are widespread. Which is of course the big "chicken-and-egg" issue...

 

How fast narrowboats *need* to go is a matter of opinion, it depends how far you want to go in how much time, but most people would say 3mph (except when passing moored boats) isn't excessive -- after all it's normal human walking speed which is pretty natural ?

 

And if boats were limited to 2mph then most of the popular canal rings wouldn't be doable in a week -- you might not care about this, but they are very popular with hirers who spend a lot of money which (partly) goes towards maintaining the system...

Edited October 17, 2020 by IanD

[mrsmelly]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

I think you misunderstood -- what I meant was that within a couple of miles *along the canal* there would usually be grid power available, so that's where the charging station should be. If you have to run new mains for a couple of miles than that's obviously going to be expensive.

 

That's why I was asking how many stretches of canal there are where the gap between places where power is easily available is too far apart -- which gets into the question about how far apart is too far. I guess you wouldn't want bigger gaps than between water points, so maybe 10 miles as an upper limiot, 5 miles would be better. Anyone know what these numbers are for water points?

I dont think there is a standard gap between water points, it differs in most locations. In my opinion the problem will be the age old problem of plonkers settling themselves down on the charging point and staying once charged and Im alright Jack. I wish I had a pound for every time Ive seen people on water points doing two wash loads and washing the boat down all of which takes ages longer than filling and going asap as we do. 

[IanD]

40 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I dont think there is a standard gap between water points, it differs in most locations. In my opinion the problem will be the age old problem of plonkers settling themselves down on the charging point and staying once charged and Im alright Jack. I wish I had a pound for every time Ive seen people on water points doing two wash loads and washing the boat down all of which takes ages longer than filling and going asap as we do. 

I know there isn't a standard gap, I've cruised over most of the network -- sometimes they're close together, sometimes there are big gaps. I was asking if anybody actually knew the statistics about water-point spacing across the network, especailly where they're a long way apart -- where on the canals are the biggest gaps, and how big are they? Yes I could spend hours on CanalpPlan or OpenCanalmap measuring distances, but you'd think somebody (CART?) mihgt already know the answer...

 

Plonkers are an age-old problem, which could be imaginatively dealt with apart from the obvious way of having an "only moor here while charging" rule -- assuming charging payment is all done online using smartphones with Bluetooth (which is the way that car charging works), charge them £10 an hour for staying at the charging point when they're not charging (or if they stay plugged in long after charging is done), like overstay charges in car parks.

 

So again, whatever is done to stop cars overstaying/parking in charging bays (which has to be done) will work for boats on canals.

 

Exactly this approach works with most of the "it's too difficult/expensive/problematic" objections/problems to electric boats and powering/charging them and where the energy comes from -- if it's the same problem as for cars, we don't have to solve it or pay for it to be solved. We need to worry about the things that are different for boats where we can't just borrow the answer from cars.

 

This isn't me wearing rose-tinted glasses, it's based on long experience working in engineering which cuts both ways -- if a technology is expensive and you have to pay for it but can't afford it you can't use it however much you'd like to, but if somebody else develops and pays for it and you can piggyback on them "for free" then you only need to worry about your own special problems ?

Edited October 17, 2020 by IanD

[mrsmelly]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

I know there isn't a standard gap, I've cruised over most of the network -- sometimes they're close together, sometimes there are big gaps. I was asking if anybody actually knew the statistics about water-point spacing across the network, especailly where they're a long way apart -- where on the canals are the biggest gaps, and how big are they? Yes I could spend hours on CanalpPlan or OpenCanalmap measuring distances, but you'd think somebody (CART?) mihgt already know the answer...

 

Plonkers are an age-old problem, which could be imaginatively dealt with apart from the obvious way of having an "only moor here while charging" rule -- assuming charging payment is all done online using smartphones with Bluetooth (which is the way that car charging works), charge them £10 an hour for staying at the charging point when they're not charging (or if they stay plugged in long after charging is done), like overstay charges in car parks.

 

So again, whatever is done to stop cars overstaying/parking in charging bays (which has to be done) will work for boats on canals.

 

Exactly this approach works with most of the "it's too difficult/expensive/problematic" objections/problems to electric boats and powering/charging them and where the energy comes from -- if it's the same problem as for cars, we don't have to solve it or pay for it to be solved. We need to worry about the things that are different for boats where we can't just borrow the answer from cars.

 

This isn't me wearing rose-tinted glasses, it's based on long experience working in engineering which cuts both ways -- if a technology is expensive and you have to pay for it but can't afford it you can't use it however much you'd like to, but if somebody else develops and pays for it and you can piggyback on them "for free" then you only need to worry about your own special problems ?

Im up for all this but how would you identify the culprits? Cars have number plates displayed 99.9999 percent of the time and are logged by cameras going in/out of car parks so relatively easy to do. However the rules on CARTS waterways have been for many years that number is displayed and name displayed on boats but we have all seen daily many boats that dont comply so legislation and enforcement there would have to be significantly updated and persued.

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

But there's no need to do this, if they went by the normal "no breaking wash" rule (or even "no big waves, breaking or not" which is what I tend to use) they'd be travelling at the same speed as diesel boats -- 3mph or less on a normal canal -- without a range problem once charging points are widespread. Which is of course the big "chicken-and-egg" issue...

 

How fast narrowboats *need* to go is a matter of opinion, it depends how far you want to go in how much time, but most people would say 3mph (except when passing moored boats) isn't excessive -- after all it's normal human walking speed which is pretty natural ?

 

And if boats were limited to 2mph then most of the popular canal rings wouldn't be doable in a week -- you might not care about this, but they are very popular with hirers who spend a lot of money which (partly) goes towards maintaining the system...

I think you missed the point I was making but never mind. 

 

If there is to be a major change to the way boats are propelled then is there any reason to think there won't be a major change to the way boats are hired? 

 

I could see 1,2 or 3 day hires becoming popular and never mind the rings just enjoy the thing about moving across water, quietly. 

Edited October 17, 2020 by magnetman

[peterboat]

Boaters will still have solar as well its the nature of the beast why pay for charging when the sun will do it for free just as it does now.a 70 foot boat can fit 3kw of solar summer time that's more than enough, winter the charging points might be welcome but solar will still supply enough to move every 14 days and live on it for the days not travelling 

[Ronaldo47]

My understanding is that the speed for least resistance in a canal is when the boat speed equals the speed of propagation of a wave in rhe canal. At this speed you get a sort of resonance that minimises the energy required. I have tried this and it seems to work, often at speeds greater than 2mph, depending factors such as water depth. 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Ronaldo47
Typo

[Bobbybass]

1 hour ago, Ronaldo47 said:

My understanding is that the speed for least resistance in a canal is when the boat speed equals the speed of propagation of a wave in rhe canal. At this speed you get a sort of resonance that minimises the energy required. I have tried this and it seems to work, often at speeds greater than 2mph, depending factors such as water depth. 

Its called....cavitation.

[IanD]

3 hours ago, peterboat said:

Boaters will still have solar as well its the nature of the beast why pay for charging when the sun will do it for free just as it does now.a 70 foot boat can fit 3kw of solar summer time that's more than enough, winter the charging points might be welcome but solar will still supply enough to move every 14 days and live on it for the days not travelling 

We already had this discussion. Unless people are very frugal with their power use, solar won't provide enough in winter. And yes in summer it covers people like you who only move every few days or only a couple of hours at a time, but not people who want or need to move more than this -- they'll need charging points. Do an energy audit, the numbers speak for themselves.

4 hours ago, magnetman said:

I think you missed the point I was making but never mind. 

 

If there is to be a major change to the way boats are propelled then is there any reason to think there won't be a major change to the way boats are hired? 

 

I could see 1,2 or 3 day hires becoming popular and never mind the rings just enjoy the thing about moving across water, quietly. 

Hirers who want to do that can already do so. But a lot of them want to and choose to do much more like the one week rings -- maybe like us they enjoy doing a lot of locks or travelling further. I don't see why this would change just because of electric boats.

[IanD]

4 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Im up for all this but how would you identify the culprits? Cars have number plates displayed 99.9999 percent of the time and are logged by cameras going in/out of car parks so relatively easy to do. However the rules on CARTS waterways have been for many years that number is displayed and name displayed on boats but we have all seen daily many boats that dont comply so legislation and enforcement there would have to be significantly updated and persued.

Because when you pay for the charging via your phone (what car charging stations do already) the system knows exactly who you are and how to contact and identify you -- and if necessary who to charge for any overstay or misuse.

[Guest]

We must remember IanD is always right, always.

 

No discussion beyond what IanD says is allowed.

[magpie patrick]

10 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Hirers who want to do that can already do so. But a lot of them want to and choose to do much more like the one week rings -- maybe like us they enjoy doing a lot of locks or travelling further. I don't see why this would change just because of electric boats.

I agree, and this is a message we need to get out loud and clear 

 

15 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

I dont think there is a standard gap between water points, 

The aim is no more than four hours between facilities - it's an aim not a golden rule but CRT will look to "do something" where there are bigger gaps

 

I have had several discussions on facilities per boat as well as facilities per mile. The 8 hour gap with only one tap could have 600 boats in it!

[peterboat]

11 hours ago, IanD said:

We already had this discussion. Unless people are very frugal with their power use, solar won't provide enough in winter. And yes in summer it covers people like you who only move every few days or only a couple of hours at a time, but not people who want or need to move more than this -- they'll need charging points. Do an energy audit, the numbers speak for themselves.

Hirers who want to do that can already do so. But a lot of them want to and choose to do much more like the one week rings -- maybe like us they enjoy doing a lot of locks or travelling further. I don't see why this would change just because of electric boats.

Again you are wrong Ian the facts speak for themselves I have cruised in the summer extensively so has NB Shine, the reality is as always it will be up to us to sort ourselves out. London boaters with a roof full of solar will have more than enough power to move every couple of weeks summer and winter, they will also in the summer be able to use the excess solar to heat water, wintertime they will be as they are now. In truth CRT wont give two monkeys reduced moving means reduced repair and complaints with no loss of income 

[IanD]

31 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Again you are wrong Ian the facts speak for themselves I have cruised in the summer extensively so has NB Shine, the reality is as always it will be up to us to sort ourselves out. London boaters with a roof full of solar will have more than enough power to move every couple of weeks summer and winter, they will also in the summer be able to use the excess solar to heat water, wintertime they will be as they are now. In truth CRT wont give two monkeys reduced moving means reduced repair and complaints with no loss of income 

You're agreeing with me again, Peter. I said that solar isn't enough in winter *unless people minimise their power use*, which you do -- but many people want more lecky-slurping appliances than you do. You yourself said that when you cruise in the summer you don't do it for long days or several days in a row like many hirers and CCers travelling some distance do.

 

So like I said, solar only will work for some people depending on size of boat and number of panels, but for many others it won't. You keep assuming that your circumstances (and those of Shine, and others) apply to everyone, but they don't -- for a lot of people, solar only won't keep them going, especially in winter, and these people need charging points. Horses for courses... ?

Edited October 18, 2020 by IanD

[Detling]

11 hours ago, IanD said:

Because when you pay for the charging via your phone (what car charging stations do already) the system knows exactly who you are and how to contact and identify you -- and if necessary who to charge for any overstay or misuse.

But who monitors when the boat is moved off, yes it has been unplugged after charging, but you cannot fit a sensor in the ground to detect if it is still clogging the access. Car sensing is easy so you know when the car has moved away. Without a means of automatic policing and fining for overstay, there are some who will happily spent weeks there, particularily in winter when space heating is requred.

[peterboat]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

You're agreeing with me again, Peter. I said that solar isn't enough in winter *unless people minimise their power use*, which you do -- but many people want more lecky-slurping appliances than you do. You yourself said that when you cruise in the summer you don't do it for long days or several days in a row like many hirers and CCers travelling some distance do.

 

So like I said, solar only will work for some people depending on size of boat and number of panels, but for many others it won't. You keep assuming that your circumstances (and those of Shine, and others) apply to everyone, but they don't -- for a lot of people, solar only won't keep them going, especially in winter, and these people need charging points. Horses for courses... ?

I think I have more electric appliances than any other boater I know! Dishwasher, washing machine electric kettle coffee maker, everything that a house has! In winter I use the Rayburn for cooking and a kettle but the rest gets used 

2 minutes ago, Detling said:

But who monitors when the boat is moved off, yes it has been unplugged after charging, but you cannot fit a sensor in the ground to detect if it is still clogging the access. Car sensing is easy so you know when the car has moved away. Without a means of automatic policing and fining for overstay, there are some who will happily spent weeks there, particularily in winter when space heating is requred.

But they will have to plug in again wont they?

[Detling]

Although much has been said about the power required for moving, no mention of hot water for showers and  cooking. These can easily be the same as the movements daily power consumption, currently can be supplied by gas but that too is a fossil fuel, add in space heating  in winter and you are now using massive amounts of gas. Generating heat is a much bigger use of energy on a boat than moving. even in summer.

[peterboat]

29 minutes ago, Detling said:

Although much has been said about the power required for moving, no mention of hot water for showers and  cooking. These can easily be the same as the movements daily power consumption, currently can be supplied by gas but that too is a fossil fuel, add in space heating  in winter and you are now using massive amounts of gas. Generating heat is a much bigger use of energy on a boat than moving. even in summer.

My drive solar is normally used for heating water in the summer, winter its the Rayburn, I use a mix of anthracite and wood, I suppose it will be wood only in the future 

[mrsmelly]

12 hours ago, IanD said:

Because when you pay for the charging via your phone (what car charging stations do already) the system knows exactly who you are and how to contact and identify you -- and if necessary who to charge for any overstay or misuse.

There is a boat moored directly opposite our mooring that appeared in february, so 8 months on a 14 day mooring. CART have stuck various notices on it and no other person has been near it since february. It has a number on it and CART obviously dont want it there hence more than one notice. This is one of how many around the system?? Whats to stop numpties mooring on an electric charging point which will be nice and handy, not charging at all, not having number on his boat as with many many and staying for hours then buggering off? and who will police it all.

[Detling]

37 minutes ago, peterboat said:

My drive solar is normally used for heating water in the summer, winter its the Rayburn, I use a mix of anthracite and wood, I suppose it will be wood only in the future 

Hire boat often have 4 or 6 people who like a shower on the morning, and like to move a long way each day so there won't be much surplus solar power most days even with 1.5 kW of solar which is about all you can easily get on a narrow boat roof and of course this assumes the crew don't want to sunbathe on the roof as you often see. I think there is still a disconnect between peoples desire and the physical reality of thermodynamics.

It was mentioned earlier that heat pumps may help but the best I have seen only give a x3 gain so that would be about 1 kW per hour to heat the boat in winter, the extra 2kW comes either from the air via a noisy fan or from the water, nice and quiet but when the double moored boats in London all extract that heat the canal will become a giant ice cube.  At least it will prevent them having to move.

[TheBiscuits]

15 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

There is a boat moored directly opposite our mooring that appeared in february, so 8 months on a 14 day mooring. CART have stuck various notices on it and no other person has been near it since february. It has a number on it and CART obviously dont want it there hence more than one notice. This is one of how many around the system?? Whats to stop numpties mooring on an electric charging point which will be nice and handy, not charging at all, not having number on his boat as with many many and staying for hours then buggering off? and who will police it all.

 

CRT are allowed to tow them away, but for some reason choose not to.  They prefer to go down the Section 8 route at great expense in legal costs.