Future of electric canal boats

[IanD]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

That last bit is why I would be keeping the diesel engine and building a small pod motor into the rudder for slow speed manueouvering. 

 

Slight disagreement about torque curve not being relevant because the simple fact is when boating on canals there is quite a lot of getting boat up to speed for example after locks. 

 

Diesels are not ideal for this. A well propped electric motor is ideal for this. 

 

It seems quite popular on buses to use electric to take up the initial load of acceleration followed by clutching in the diesel power unit. 

 

Canal boats are small but it's definitely a good strategy to do a similar thing. You could turn the diesel engine off five minutes before arriving at a lock and back on 5 minutes after leaving. But I would not personally want the agro of having both power units on the same driveline. I think a folding prop could prove useful for the electric pod, and learn to approach locks slowly and use strapping lines rather than waste power with reversing. 

 

All the time with the knowledge that the diesel engine is there on the button as and when needed. 

 

 

 

 

 

Hybrids like the ones from Hybrid Marine do have all those advantages like extra power for rivers, silence in locks and so on, and they can run for a day or two on electric power just like an electric-only boat.

 

The disadvantage is that they're *very* expensive because you're basically paying for (and having to fit in) both a diesel engine (and fuel tanks) and an electric motor (and batteries), but they do work today without a network of charging points and can use solar to reduce consumption as well. Adding a generator to an electric boat has the same problem, a diesel one powerful (6kVA?) and quiet enough to do the job costs the thick end of ten grand, more if you want higher power.

 

They're a great solution for now if you have deep enough pockets, and will still work as an electric boat (with diesel backup) when charging points appear. To give you an idea of the cost, a complete hybrid power system including engine/motor/controller/batteries/inverter/accessories comes out at about 30 grand including VAT, but this does include having 5kW or so of mains on board "for free" ?

 

Once charging points appear all-electric is a better solution, cheaper and with more usable space on the boat -- which shouldn't be underestimated as a benefit given the limited space on narrowboats.

Edited October 16, 2020 by IanD

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, The Happy Nomad said:

By co incidence I was down on the beach at today watching the ships holding and waiting for the tide.

 

I was struck by how much filth they appeared to be belching from their funnels. Now volume wise yes they won't be as bad as many other sources but it was striking how much smoke and particulate matter they were spewing into a lovely clear blue sky.

 

And that was while they were stationary or rather holding their position, underway I bet they are a lot worse. They were obviously older vessels and I'm guessing newer ones are cleaner but are they??

 

It's a horrible sight to see, but the industrial revolution kicked it off in the 18th century to its present levels. I'm sure horrible black smoke was created by fires long before. 

 

 

[cuthound]

53 minutes ago, IanD said:

Formula 1 has the same problem airliners do, to work at all they need to store a huge amount of energy with the minimum weight. Difficult to see why this matters to narrowboats, in fact it's not impossible that Formula 1 will disappear and be replaced by an uprated Formula E. Not what petrolheads want to hear, but it'll be increasingly difficult to defend cars screaming round a track at 2mpg (or whatever) in the future, driven by a technology with nothing in common with new road cars...

 

Yes they might, but only if they think they can make money out of it. And I'm not sure encouraging the oil companies to do things which sustain their business model but still contribute to global warming (because they're better than fossil fuels, but still not as good as renewables) is really a sensible thing to do, given the rate that atmospheric CO2 is still going up at...

 

And the mining of rare earth materials doesnt produce CO2, get real, we need to move to something sustainable for future transport.

Edited October 16, 2020 by cuthound

[IanD]

20 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

And the mining of rare earth materials doesnt produce CO2, get real.

Everything that uses energy has a CO2 impact, including mining the lithium for batteries and neodymium for motors, and all the alternatives.

 

This fact is always trotted out by fossil fuel fans (also said against wind turbines and solar panels), but it carefully ignores the facts -- not opinions! -- that if you analyse the total lifecycle impact including manufacture and disposal, all these renewable energy and propulsion systems are far *far* better for CO2 emissions then the fossil fuel ones we use today. If they weren't, the whole world wouldn't be pivoting in this direction.

 

If you disagree, please produce a factual analysis that backs this up, because I've never seen one -- and I've looked, having heard this argument umpteen times. There are loads of scientific analyses out there from reputable sources (not inaccurate blogs and websites) which back up what I said above, a minute or two on Google will find them.

 

Electric boaters should be reassured that they are indeed helping to save the planet, including manufacturing and disposal CO2 costs ?

Edited October 16, 2020 by IanD

[IanD]

33 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

I don't think the maritime use of fuels would be a problem to the planet. It's the massive use by millions of vehicles, industry and the cutting down of rain forests. 

 

 

Maritime fuel usage accounts for a significant part of the transport contribution to total CO2 emissions, about the same as aviation (just under 4% of the total each). Road transport is about 20%. The other 70% or so comes from energy generation and use, agriculture, industrial processes and product use, and waste management.

 

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/20191129STO67756/emissions-from-planes-and-ships-facts-and-figures-infographic

 

Narrowboats are a drop in the ocean in comparison, but the percentage contribution to global warming isn't the reason change is coming...

Edited October 16, 2020 by IanD

[cuthound]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

It all depends on the numbers for electric fuel boats. Let's say when you build a new boat the batteries cost 5 grand for 50kWh, but this makes sense because when you add on the cost of the motor and controller it's comparable to a new diesel engine. If a fuel boat added enough batteries to charge 4 other boats this would cost them 20 grand; let's say they can charge a premium for the electricity, maybe 50p per kWh so 25 quid from each boat they fill up -- but they've bought the power at 10p per kWh, so that's only 20 quid profit -- and this assumes boats will pay far higher rates from a fuel boat instead of going and charging up the boat themselves. They'd have to charge up 1000 boats to get their money back, so say 2000 to get a reasonable return. This would take a *long* time...

 

So I think electric fuel boats (meaning, for recharging other boats) won't work, the investment needed is just too big and the returns too small -- the only reason they work now is they can set up without a shed load of money, and even so people won't pay much higher prices from them than they would on land.

 

How all boats -- especially remote ones -- deal with heating in future with the drive to reduce emissions (e.g. replacing gas CH with heat-pumps) is another interesting problem that hasn't been looked at yet. Again we could say this is Somebody Else's Problem, remote houses with no grid connection have exactly the same issue, so boats will do whatever they do -- on the other hand they have big enough roof area to put a lot of solar in (and buried heat storage for winter) which boats can't do.

 

Maybe the same heat-pump technology that will be used in houses will solve the problem for boats, if you have a CoP (Coefficient of Performance) of 5 (some are up to 7) then every 1kW of electrical power is equivalent to 5kW of heating. Narrowboat heaters (Webasto etc) are usually about 4kW so would need 800W of power when running, but these don't usually run all the time -- can this just be added onto the boat power budget? We do have the advantage of a big cold heatsink nearby (the canal) which is great for heat pumps...

 

Your costs are out by at least a factor of 10.

 

Until 2013 I used to project manage power projects, and back then, a realistic estimate was £1,000 per kW for almost anything power related, batteries (lead acid which at present are much cheaper than lithium ion), generstors, UPS etc. I expect all these things cost more 7 years on.

 

Back in 2010 the company I worked for decided to move from traditional power provision into green energy, wind generators, biomass fuelled decentalised energy centres, heat pumps, gas engines with heat recovery to supply district heating etc.

 

About 50% of the projects failed because the new technology was unrelable and/or failed to meet the claimed outputs and had to be replaced with conventional solutions. It took just 3 years for the company to fold...

Edited October 16, 2020 by cuthound
Phat phingers

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Your costs are out by at least a factor of 10.

 

Until 2013 I used to project manage power projects, and back then, a realistic estimate was £1,000 per kW for almost anything power related, batteries (lead acid which at present are much cheaper than lithium ion), generstors, UPS etc. I expect all these things cost more 7 years on.

 

Back in 2010 the company I worked for decided to move from traditional power provision into green energy, wind generators, biomass fuelled decentalised energy centres, gas engines with heat recovery to supply district heating etc.

 

About 50% of the projects failed because the new technology was unrelable and/or failed to meet the claimed outputs and had to be replaced with conventional solutions. It took just 3 years for the company to fold...

Your figure for batteries today are wrong (correct for 10 years ago), costs are dropping rapidly driven by cars:

 

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/as-battery-costs-plummet-lithium-ion-innovation-hits-limits-experts-say-58613238

 

My "5 grand for 50kWh" figure used $130/kWh which is correct for 2021 i.e. a new-build boat using lithium car battery technology, which is what I said.

 

Cost in 2019 was $156/kWh, projection is $100/kWh in 2024 and hitting around $60/kWh by 2030.

 

Yes these are big volume prices, but the number was meant to be an example not an exact figure. If prices are higher, electric fuel boats recharging other boats makes even less sense,

Edited October 16, 2020 by IanD

[nb Innisfree]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

124kWh would take 41h to charge at 3kW ignoring charging losses (i.e. lithium not lead-acid), say 45 hours allowing for this. Still almost days, but better then three...

 

(which means to be practical either a smaller battery bank, charging more often, or faster chargers)

I was basing my calcs on our i3 "granny charger" which is 2.5kw and at that rate it charges at approx.1.8 kwh allowing for losses, so on that basis a 124 kwh batt would take around 8.5 hrs on a 7.2 Kw grid supply to go from, say, 30% to 80% SoC on a bulk charge (kind to Li-on batts) Super chargers would make it very practical in the real world of canal boating with 2 to 3kw propulsion, 7.2 Kw towpath supply for 7 hrs overnight would take care of a day's worth of cruising and domestic. Not allowing any for space heating though! 

Edited October 16, 2020 by nb Innisfree

[cuthound]

32 minutes ago, IanD said:

Your figure for batteries today are wrong (correct for 10 years ago), costs are dropping rapidly driven by cars:

 

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/as-battery-costs-plummet-lithium-ion-innovation-hits-limits-experts-say-58613238

 

My "5 grand for 50kWh" figure used $130/kWh which is correct for 2021 i.e. a new-build boat using lithium car battery technology, which is what I said.

 

Cost in 2019 was $156/kWh, projection is $100/kWh in 2024 and hitting around $60/kWh by 2030.

 

Yes these are big volume prices, but the number was meant to be an example not an exact figure. If prices are higher, electric fuel boats recharging other boats makes even less sense,

 

You are quoting high volume new car batteries, produced by Tesla. Probably wholsale prices.

 

Available now for boats are these. £255 for 128 wh retail.

 

https://www.force4.co.uk/item/Mastervolt/MLS-Lithium-Ion-Battery/WIY

 

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by cuthound
Clarification

[nb Innisfree]

Tesla battery production is set to go up massively, along with cheaper costs. 

[IanD]

1 minute ago, nb Innisfree said:

I was basing my calcs on our i3 "granny charger" which is 2.5kw and at that rate of charge it charges at approx.1.8 kwh, so on that basis a 124 kwh batt would take around 8.5 hrs on a 7.2 Kw grid supply to go from, say, 30% to 80% SoC on a bulk charge (kind to Li-on batts) Super chargers would make it very practical in the real world of canal boating with 2 to 3kw propulsion. 

Indeed they would, but you probably don't need the kind of "super-superchargers" (anything up to 150kW or above) that are starting to be installed for cars, the target being to fully charge a car from empty in the time it takes to get a coffee (because motorists are *impatient*).

 

If the target is overnight charging then 10kW-15kW per boat is plenty, this (single-phase 40A-60A at 230V) is no different to any house incoming mains supply and presents the same level of difficulty i.e. very little. If you had charging for 3 boats at a given spot, this would be the same 50kW as 3 houses (see below), 6 boats would equal 6 houses (100kW) and so on.

 

If the target is to charge in the time it takes to fill a water tank then you'd need a ~50kW 3-phase supply which is also similar to 3 adjacent houses (each house is usually on a different phase), it could only change one boat at a time but in a third the time, so overall the same number of boats as the 3 overnight sockets mentioned above -- for two boats at a water point at the same time you'd need 100kW. All this assumes the batteries are flay and need fully charging, which (like filling a water tank) won't be the case most of the time.

 

None of which is especially difficult, and all are way easier to deal with (especially grid loading) than for cars where you have far more cars drawing far more power in the same spot -- 30 cars charging at a typical motorway services would need almost 5MW.

[nb Innisfree]

Enough power for the average boat each day on an overnight charge needs 7.2 kw, therefore would 7.2kw towpath hook ups every mile be sufficient and realistic?

[IanD]

22 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

You are quoting high volume new car batteries, produced by Tesla. Probably wholsale prices.

 

Available now for boats are these. £255 for 128 wh retail.

 

https://www.force4.co.uk/item/Mastervolt/MLS-Lithium-Ion-Battery/WIY

 

 

I'm sure I could find even more expensive ones if I tried, these are vastly overpriced "drop-in replacement" batteries including a BMS in every one and huge Mastervolt markups. New single 3.2V 200Ah prismatic cells are currently about £130 each (retail price, from many sources) which is 20p/Wh compared to the ones you quoted which are ten times the price. The figure I quoted for battery packs using car lithium-ion cells (10p/Wh next year) is half the current retail price of LiFePO4 prismatic cells, which seems reasonable.

Edited October 16, 2020 by IanD

[cuthound]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

I'm sure I could find even more expensive ones if I tried, these are vastly overpriced "drop-in replacement" batteries including a BMS in every one and huge Mastervolt markups. New single 3.2V 200Ah prismatic cells are currently about £130 each (retail price, from many sources) which is 20p/Wh compared to the ones you quoted which are ten times the price. The figure I quoted for battery packs using car lithium-ion cells (10p/Wh next year) is half the current retail price of LiFePO4 prismatic cells, which seems reasonable.

 

First one I found that you could actually buy now when googling lion battery batteries

 

Cant find any retail prices for the Tesla ones, just press releases.

Edited October 16, 2020 by cuthound
Phat phingers

[IanD]

24 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Enough power for the average boat each day on an overnight charge needs 7.2 kw, therefore would 7.2kw towpath hook ups every mile be sufficient and realistic?

You'd have to look at not just boat power usage (7.2kWh/day seems low if just propulsion takes 3kW at 3mph) but how many boats there are on that stretch of canal, how big their batteries are, how often they stop to charge up and for how long. Busy stretches of the canals like the Llangollen and Trent & Mersey (busiest at about 9000 boat movements/year IIRC, so probably about 50 boats per day in summer) would need a lot more points (to plug more boats in) regardless of spacing than stretches like the HNC (maybe 2 boats per day in summer).

 

I'm sure all this information exists somewhere, you'd think it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man (or CART) to plug the numbers in (ho, ho...) and work out how much total charging capacity would be needed across the canal network, and together with some assumptions about fast/overnight charging work out how many charging points would be needed and how far apart.

 

In fact you could rightfully say that this is exactly the kind of thing that somebody in CART *ought* to be doing right now, planning ahead to when the canals (like the roads) have to go electric, since the government has recently said that's exactly what's going to happen at some point.

 

I wonder if anyone is? Or is everyone spending all their time doing something more useful, like creating new silly signs? ?

Edited October 16, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Apparently the next generation of Formula One engines are going to run on efuel as they try to make F1 csrbon neutral.

 

 

You don't think the oil companies would invest to try and save their future?

That's petrol not diesel which is using ever higher pump pressure to achieve a clean burn, that's where problem occurs it doesn't seem to like those pressures and fails to lubricate adequately. 

Oil companies are increasingly investing in electric they know which way the wind is blowing ?

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Your figure for batteries today are wrong (correct for 10 years ago), costs are dropping rapidly driven by cars:

 

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/as-battery-costs-plummet-lithium-ion-innovation-hits-limits-experts-say-58613238

 

My "5 grand for 50kWh" figure used $130/kWh which is correct for 2021 i.e. a new-build boat using lithium car battery technology, which is what I said.

 

Cost in 2019 was $156/kWh, projection is $100/kWh in 2024 and hitting around $60/kWh by 2030.

 

Yes these are big volume prices, but the number was meant to be an example not an exact figure. If prices are higher, electric fuel boats recharging other boats makes even less sense,

For 5k I can put together about a 37 kwh 48 volt battery pack with balance boards, so your figures would be about right for the cost of a 50kwh commercially, but they would not want to sell it for that! 

[dmr]

10 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

I don't think that looking at the car industry is the best guide - canal boat engines have developed on the back of truck engines and we should be looking there for better guidance for future methods and timescales. 

 

One of the consequences of an over-promotion of electric motors for propulsion as the only alternative to fossil fuels is that it stymies the search for better alternatives that area better fit to the established usage patterns.

You might struggle with the economics of winter only charging moorings. Capital investment likes to have 24/7/365 usage as much as possible - sitting idle for half a year doubles the price, in effect.

CC'ers winter moorings, hire boats and cruising boats in summer, I suspect the capital investment of the charging point is very low, but if you have to build a landing stage and get CRT approval then that's a different kettle of fish.

 

...............Dave

[IanD]

25 minutes ago, peterboat said:

For 5k I can put together about a 37 kwh 48 volt battery pack with balance boards, so your figures would be about right for the cost of a 50kwh commercially, but they would not want to sell it for that! 

Is this buying the 3.2V LiFiPO4 prismatic cells I referred to earlier? These are still made in much smaller volumes than the cells/packs for the car market, which I'd expect to be cheaper. Also I know Tesla is co-operating with a Chinese battery manufacturer to use LiFePO4 cells in lower-cost cars especially in China, these are expected to be even cheaper than the Li-ion cells most cars use now -- also avoids use of cobalt which is expensive and in short supply.

 

So I still wouldn't be surprised if the price I gave was met in the next year or two, even allowing for (reasonable) markups. But anyway it was only meant as an example, to show that even with really low battery prices (which 5 grand for 50kWh is) using them on fuel boats to charge other boats still isn't going to work, even if they could charge huge markups (+200%) on the kWh price.

 

Which means fuel boats -- which are almost a labour of love anyway, nobody makes a fortune out of them even know -- will be reduced to supplying diesel to the decreasing number of boats that still use it, and smokeless fuel to stove-users until burning that is banned too -- which it probably will be on the same timescales as gas/oil CH on shore, presumably starting with banning new installs and eventually moving to a complete ban like happened to coal. Difficult to see any future for them in the brave new electric canal world...

9 minutes ago, dmr said:

CC'ers winter moorings, hire boats and cruising boats in summer, I suspect the capital investment of the charging point is very low, but if you have to build a landing stage and get CRT approval then that's a different kettle of fish.

 

...............Dave

Indeed, but if CART want to electrify the canals they'll have to make recharging possible, which must mean allowing enough recharging points/stages to be built. The difference is that today CART don't want people to build new landing stages and moor up to them and clutter up the canal, but they're going to have to be in favour of recharging stations.

 

If the options are that either CART have to pay loads to install lots of them or allow other people to pay for and install them, I suspect their attitude might just change ?

 

Oh, look at the time -- it's gin o'clock, must dash, toodle-pip ?

Edited October 16, 2020 by IanD

[nb Innisfree]

Innisfree used 100 lts of diesel per month,  domestic electricity at 14p per kwh for daily usage of 14kwh (includes 4hrs cruing say) works out at roughly half price of diesel, so plenty of room for mark up, especially at commercial rates, and still be cheaper than diesel. Healthy profits available  I reckon. 

[dmr]

17 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Innisfree used 100 lts of diesel per month,  domestic electricity at 14p per kwh for daily usage of 14kwh (includes 4hrs cruing say) works out at roughly half price of diesel, so plenty of room for mark up, especially at commercial rates, and still be cheaper than diesel. Healthy profits available  I reckon. 

There has been a lot of talk about this. The Govment make a lot of money out of fuel tax, maybe will they try to tax electricity used for transport? They won't yet because they want to encourage electric cars, but when we all have them and leccy is in short supply they will want to reduce driving so will maybe tax the leccy.

 

We could have red leccy that you use in the house and white leccy for transport, and a fine if you use red leccy in your car or boat ?

 

.............Dave

[nb Innisfree]

3 minutes ago, dmr said:

There has been a lot of talk about this. The Govment make a lot of money out of fuel tax, maybe will they try to tax electricity used for transport? They won't yet because they want to encourage electric cars, but when we all have them and leccy is in short supply they will want to reduce driving so will maybe tax the leccy.

 

We could have red leccy that you use in the house and white leccy for transport, and a fine if you use red leccy in your car or boat ?

 

.............Dave

There's already a mark up on domestic prices for public charging so things won't be any worse than they are now.

 

Just try to keep your bank balance out of the red... 

[Oddjob]

marina I am in now has a very low power feed and the power company wants £200,000 to upgrade so not all marinas will find this a option.

[Oddjob]

What needs to come first is to have all engines fitted with catalytic  convertor so this cuts down pollution new boats to have from now and old boats within a fews years say next BSS. My 2nd point is what % of total diesel used in the UK do boats use. So much expense for so little gain. With electric cars sucking up all the batteries price will not drop so much.

[peterboat]

16 hours ago, IanD said:

Is this buying the 3.2V LiFiPO4 prismatic cells I referred to earlier? These are still made in much smaller volumes than the cells/packs for the car market, which I'd expect to be cheaper. Also I know Tesla is co-operating with a Chinese battery manufacturer to use LiFePO4 cells in lower-cost cars especially in China, these are expected to be even cheaper than the Li-ion cells most cars use now -- also avoids use of cobalt which is expensive and in short supply.

 

So I still wouldn't be surprised if the price I gave was met in the next year or two, even allowing for (reasonable) markups. But anyway it was only meant as an example, to show that even with really low battery prices (which 5 grand for 50kWh is) using them on fuel boats to charge other boats still isn't going to work, even if they could charge huge markups (+200%) on the kWh price.

 

Which means fuel boats -- which are almost a labour of love anyway, nobody makes a fortune out of them even know -- will be reduced to supplying diesel to the decreasing number of boats that still use it, and smokeless fuel to stove-users until burning that is banned too -- which it probably will be on the same timescales as gas/oil CH on shore, presumably starting with banning new installs and eventually moving to a complete ban like happened to coal. Difficult to see any future for them in the brave new electric canal world...

Indeed, but if CART want to electrify the canals they'll have to make recharging possible, which must mean allowing enough recharging points/stages to be built. The difference is that today CART don't want people to build new landing stages and moor up to them and clutter up the canal, but they're going to have to be in favour of recharging stations.

 

If the options are that either CART have to pay loads to install lots of them or allow other people to pay for and install them, I suspect their attitude might just change ?

 

Oh, look at the time -- it's gin o'clock, must dash, toodle-pip ?

No its lithium polymer batteries 4.2 volts

5 hours ago, Oddjob said:

What needs to come first is to have all engines fitted with catalytic  convertor so this cuts down pollution new boats to have from now and old boats within a fews years say next BSS. My 2nd point is what % of total diesel used in the UK do boats use. So much expense for so little gain. With electric cars sucking up all the batteries price will not drop so much.

Wont work as inland water engines don't get hot enough same with DPF system