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Electric?


andy4502

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6 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

There are towns in America, small ones I admit, that depend on diesel generators. They are too far off grid to be, erm, on grid... 

 

There are car recharging points in the Australian outback that are powered by diesel generators - same applies, too far off grid

 

There are villages in Romania that... you get the picture, but they don't use electric vehicles

 

There are places where the only electricity supply is going to be local - IF cars and boats are to go all electric then these places need to be able to service them. Otherwise, in the short term FF cars and boats are retained to reach them (and belch their fumes in town 90% of the time) whilst in the long term they end up even further off grid because cars and boats can't reach them.

My favourite generating station. It is a former Russian Orthodox Church close to the River Onega north of Kargopol. During the communist period, the church was converted into a power station for a small town. When we visited in 2006, there were only a couple of families still there, and the power station/church was derelict, though you could still see some of the church decoration.

P6128613.jpg

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My understanding is that internal combustion engines have a speed at which they operate at their maximum efficiency. Range extender engines can be run at this speed and the improved efficiency could compensate for the energy lost  in the  conversion to electricity compared with an internal combustion engine providing direct mechanical drive and spending significant time running at a non-optimum speed.  I recall that during the 3 day week era of the 1970's, when petrol was in short supply and  lower speed limits were imposed, I consistently  managed 56mpg from my Hillman Imp on runs between London and North Wales at 50mph. My usual consumption in built-up areas around town was 38mpg, and at 70mph on motorways, only 33mpg.

 

Hydrogen no doubt has its place but, Hydrogen being considerably less dense than liquid hydrocarbons, requires a far greater volume  to provide the same energy. I have been following the development of Hydrogen-powered trains in the pages of "Modern Railways". They have been trialled with some success in Germany, but the larger loading gauge usually found in Europe means that their trains have more space for under-floor fuel tanks and equipment. The one trialled in the UK needs a complete coach to accommodate its fuel and equipment, reducing passenger-carrying capacity. There is also the safety issue: the part of North Germany where trials gave been taking place is relatively flat and the absence of hills means that the lines normally have  no tunnels.  Hydrogen leaking in the open air would be able to disperse rapidly and be unlikely to result in an explosion,  whereas it could build up in the confines of a tunnel. This is seen as a problem for the use of Hydrogen on the many UK railway lines that have tunnels, and the same consideration would apply to the narrow and often long tunnels found on the canal network. I well remember the spectacular explosion demonstrated in a school chemistry lesson that was produced by quite a small volume of Hydrogen gas. 

Edited by Ronaldo47
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A small efficient diesel (turbo) running at optimum conditions would do a lot better than most current boat engines for efficiency and emissions but that is not the target anymore, we are not improving them, we are getting rid of them.

By 2050 it really won't be my problem so I won't worry too much.

I am aiming to reduce my diesel consumption by about 30% and my coal consumption by more than 50% in the future, that's the best I can do, and I don't use aeroplanes anymore and I'm veggie...so I don't feel too bad about a nice big engine in the boat.

 

...............Dave

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1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I thought you had a John Deere tractor engine ... ;)

 

Sorry, you are correct, should have said a big engine that smokes nicely.

 

Have been Rochdale CMers for a while now, not had a good thrash on the Weaver or Thames for over a year, and its smoking like a good'un. Might tie up in a lock and have a thrash but the locks here have strange wooden floors and the John Deere does have a lot of power, it might suck up the floorboards ?

 

Maybe will have to take the injectors out and clean them but that's less fun.

 

.................Dave

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6 minutes ago, dmr said:

Have been Rochdale CMers for a while now, not had a good thrash on the Weaver or Thames for over a year, and its smoking like a good'un. Might tie up in a lock and have a thrash but the locks here have strange wooden floors and the John Deere does have a lot of power, it might suck up the floorboards ?

 

If you weren't Southern length you could play on the Calder on red boards.  That'll clear out a variety of deposits, and they won't all be in your engine!

 

Remember, adrenaline is brown! ;)

 

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17 hours ago, dmr said:

Alderney in the Channel Islands was run on diesel, dunno if it still is, there was always talk of a cable to France but not sure if it happened. Leccy was expensive.

And still is - Mobile Telecoms needs power (for the cell masts) - the local mobile provider was under pressure to reduce costs and ended up "look, we have to pay diesel prices for the electricity to run the cell sites; we can't match the price you would pay on the mainland, if you don't like it then a) stop using mobile or b) support us in the request for cheaper electric"

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13 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Hasn't she been carrying an unused built-in petrol generator around all year to no advantage then?

Not if you view the Range Extender as an "insurance policy" - and that's where a lot of us with ICE work.

 

If I knew in advance I needed to travel to Manchester next Tue I'd sell the Fiesta and hire an appropriate vehicle when I needed it.  Because things turn up "out of the blue" I prefer a car in the garage. And if I went electric I'd probably be the same; a "range extender" allows for the daughter in law ringing just as you get back from the shops with an "I don't like to ask but can you possibly...". Pure electric would be "Yea, give me two hours to recharge the car", Range extender (or ICE) would be "yea, round in fifteen minutes"

 

We may need a change in attitude, back to pre-mobile days, of planning ahead...

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11 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

We may need a change in attitude, back to pre-mobile days, of planning ahead...

Actually, we'd be going back further than that 

 

"Can't do" in a crisis - you may recall many years ago we left grandma and grandad's with grandad having fallen ill - unbeknown to us, or at least to me, he died in the night and dad went straight back to Chorley, I found out when I woke up and mum told me. 

Dad's actions had been unfettered by any consideration of the car's ability to make the journey, if he needed petrol there were all night filling stations - I haven't needed it but these last ten years with mum then dad my thoughts have always been "I can be there in four hours if I have to be". Having made extensive use of an electric car, I know that if that call came just as I'd got back from south wales (or whilst I was there) I couldn't do it.  

So yes, range extender is an insurance policy. 

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Update on Ford's electric problems:

 

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/ford-to-fall-short-of-europe-emission-rules-after-hybrid-recall

 

Apparently the batteries in question are made by Samsung. 

 

I agree entirely with the previous poster. About 20 years ago we got the dreaded  2AM call from the hospital where my wife's mother had been admitted. She had suddenly taken a turn for the worst, and we had to drive to the other side of London for her last moments. My own mother was still living at home well into her 90's, but often had problems with falls and we could get calls at any time from her alerting service to go round and help her up.  

 

 

Edited by Ronaldo47
Typos, clarification
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14 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

My understanding is that internal combustion engines have a speed at which they operate at their maximum efficiency. Range extender engines can be run at this speed and the improved efficiency could compensate for the energy lost  in the  conversion to electricity compared with an internal combustion engine providing direct mechanical drive and spending significant time running at a non-optimum speed.  I recall that during the 3 day week era of the 1970's, when petrol was in short supply and  lower speed limits were imposed, I consistently  managed 56mpg from my Hillman Imp on runs between London and North Wales at 50mph. My usual consumption in built-up areas around town was 38mpg, and at 70mph on motorways, only 33mpg.

 

Hydrogen no doubt has its place but, Hydrogen being considerably less dense than liquid hydrocarbons, requires a far greater volume  to provide the same energy. I have been following the development of Hydrogen-powered trains in the pages of "Modern Railways". They have been trialled with some success in Germany, but the larger loading gauge usually found in Europe means that their trains have more space for under-floor fuel tanks and equipment. The one trialled in the UK needs a complete coach to accommodate its fuel and equipment, reducing passenger-carrying capacity. There is also the safety issue: the part of North Germany where trials gave been taking place is relatively flat and the absence of hills means that the lines normally have  no tunnels.  Hydrogen leaking in the open air would be able to disperse rapidly and be unlikely to result in an explosion,  whereas it could build up in the confines of a tunnel. This is seen as a problem for the use of Hydrogen on the many UK railway lines that have tunnels, and the same consideration would apply to the narrow and often long tunnels found on the canal network. I well remember the spectacular explosion demonstrated in a school chemistry lesson that was produced by quite a small volume of Hydrogen gas. 

I thought I heard that the current unit trialing in UK is a test bed prototype and that their next step is to put everything underneath the carriage.

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From #74 of the "Future of electric canal boats" thread.

 

"My daughter is doing government paid research into hydrogen at Leeds university, she doesn't see it as a viable solution to cars, trains, or even lorries. I gave you some reasons why earlier their are plenty more. Ships and planes are better suited, ships especially as they can store it as ammonia where it's safe and stable."

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Dear all,

 

in true and fantastic canalworld.net tradition this has turned into a multifaceted strokey beard discussion about all sorts of things that are not quite relevant to my initial question :) 

 

I will pm him to find out the cunning plan

 

and thank you all for your entertaining but quite barking comments :) 

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