Leak off pipes, help!?

[Tracy D'arth]

Anneal your washers on the gas ring, up to dull red heat and allow to cool.

[Flyboy]

42 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Anneal your washers on the gas ring, up to dull red heat and allow to cool.

Don't you mean quenching after heating to cherry red ? If you let it cool slowly it will harden up nearly to its original state.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Flyboy

[Jen-in-Wellies]

15 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

Don't you mean quenching after heating to cherry red ? If you let it cool slowly it will harden up nearly to its original state.

Not with copper sealing washers. Annealing to dull red, then allow to cool naturally as @Tracy D'arth said. Makes them soft again and gets rid of the work hardening from being compressed under the banjo bolt.

Jen

[Flyboy]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Not with copper sealing washers. Annealing to dull red, then allow to cool naturally as @Tracy D'arth said. Makes them soft again and gets rid of the work hardening from being compressed under the banjo bolt.

Jen

Not when I did metallurgy when I worked in a laboratory it didn't.  Hardness testing before and after proved otherwise. Cooling slowly only showed a slight softening whereas quenching achieved full softening.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Flyboy

[David Mack]

5 hours ago, Dolly P. said:

Thanks for all of your help everybody, following Tony's advice I took it to DFIS diesel injection services in Watford, super helpful and highly Reccomend! Has sorted it out for me for a good price.

 

Yes he's a good bloke. He fixed us up with a new injector pipe for Fulbourne's National a few years back. As it had failed in Berko I had to get the train to Watford and then a bus as near as I could get, and he insisted on coming out and meeting me at the bus stop to save me a walk.

Job done quite quickly, and while he was doing it I nipped out through a hole in the fence onto the Ebury Way footpath (disused railway) and walked along it to the canal and then down the towpath to Batchworth. When I got back the job was done, and all for a very reasonable price.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

44 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

Not when I did metallurgy when I worked in a laboratory it didn't.  Hardness testing before and after proved otherwise. Cooling slowly only showed a slight softening whereas quenching achieved full softening.

Not in copper. The change is taking place at the annealing temperature. Cooling rate afterwards makes no difference for any that can be reasonably performed. With a small thing like a banjo washer, cooling rate is going to be relatively high anyway. With some metals cooling rate is important. I also did metallurgy!

[Alastair]

10 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Not in copper. The change is taking place at the annealing temperature. Cooling rate afterwards makes no difference for any that can be reasonably performed. With a small thing like a banjo washer, cooling rate is going to be relatively high anyway. With some metals cooling rate is important. I also did metallurgy!

That contradicts everything I know about working with copper. Not a metallurgist, but i've done a bit of copper work. 

We would soften work-hardened copper by heating then cooling rapidly. Allowing copper to cool slowly didn't reverse the work hardening. 

[Tracy D'arth]

I've found that with small copper washers it makes little difference whether you quench or not. The annealing of larger copper items does require quenching, its the reverse of working ferrous metals. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

42 minutes ago, Alastair said:

That contradicts everything I know about working with copper. Not a metallurgist, but i've done a bit of copper work. 

We would soften work-hardened copper by heating then cooling rapidly. Allowing copper to cool slowly didn't reverse the work hardening. 

Annealing is a heat process to firstly heal the dislocations that have been pinned and hardened the metal, then recrystallise the metal,. then perhaps allow those new grains to grow, all of which takes increasing amounts time at temperature, measured in minutes, not seconds. The cool down rate from that temperature doesn't matter. I suspect that what most people do, heating to a dull red, then quenching isn't actually fully annealing the copper, but just slightly relieving some of the stress in it and it is still quite work hardened. Possibly a slow cool is allowing more surface oxidation, which makes a sheet harder to work? Could give the effect you see.

 

Quenching is another process that is used to effectively "freeze" a high temperature phase that has properties you want by reducing its temperature so rapidly that it doesn't get a chance to transform to the low temperature stable phase before there isn't enough heat energy left to make the change. Thickness and size of the object have an effect too. Pure copper, or Copper with some dissolved Oxygen doesn't have these sorts of phases at high temperature. It would depend what alloy your "copper" actually was if you saw an effect from quenching. Brasses do have lots of weird phases at higher zinc concentrations for example.

 

I don't know what material the copper in a copper banjo washer actually is. I'd suspect it would be pretty pure, but I don't know. A small washer is going to cool down through the first few hundred degrees rather quickly when removed from the flame, so all quenching is likely to do is make it cool enough to pick up straight away. Any metallurgical changes to the bulk of the washer are probably over by the time it gets to the water.

 

For the OP, probably the easiest thing to do is get some fresh new washers!

 

Jen

Edited October 14, 2020 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Alastair]

30 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Annealing is a heat process to firstly heal the dislocations that have been pinned and hardened the metal, then recrystallise the metal,. then perhaps allow those new grains to grow, all of which takes increasing amounts time at temperature, measured in minutes, not seconds. The cool down rate from that temperature doesn't matter. I suspect that what most people do, heating to a dull red, then quenching isn't actually fully annealing the copper, but just slightly relieving some of the stress in it and it is still quite work hardened. Possibly a slow cool is allowing more surface oxidation, which makes a sheet harder to work? Could give the effect you see.

 

Quenching is another process that is used to effectively "freeze" a high temperature phase that has properties you want by reducing its temperature so rapidly that it doesn't get a chance to transform to the low temperature stable phase before there isn't enough heat energy left to make the change. Thickness and size of the object have an effect too. Pure copper, or Copper with some dissolved Oxygen doesn't have these sorts of phases at high temperature. It would depend what alloy your "copper" actually was if you saw an effect from quenching. Brasses do have lots of weird phases at higher zinc concentrations for example.

 

I don't know what material the copper in a copper banjo washer actually is. I'd suspect it would be pretty pure, but I don't know. A small washer is going to cool down through the first few hundred degrees rather quickly when removed from the flame, so all quenching is likely to do is make it cool enough to pick up straight away. Any metallurgical changes to the bulk of the washer are probably over by the time it gets to the water.

 

For the OP, probably the easiest thing to do is get some fresh new washers!

 

Jen

In the grand tradition of digressing from the OP, lets continue this post.

 

I did a bit of research to see if opinion had moved on from when I did copper work (and plumbing).

 

My research absolutely agrees with the part of your statement in italics. 

Crystals form in copper as it is worked.

Heating to red heat randomizes the structure, breaking down the crystals. Fast quenching 'freezes' this state, just as you've said above. 

 

Absolutely pure copper might behave differently, but the 'copper' that we have access to certainly requires annealing with a fast quench. Slow cooling after heating isn't as effective.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

23 minutes ago, Alastair said:

In the grand tradition of digressing from the OP, lets continue this post.

 

I did a bit of research to see if opinion had moved on from when I did copper work (and plumbing).

 

My research absolutely agrees with the part of your statement in italics. 

Crystals form in copper as it is worked.

Heating to red heat randomizes the structure, breaking down the crystals. Fast quenching 'freezes' this state, just as you've said above. 

 

Absolutely pure copper might behave differently, but the 'copper' that we have access to certainly requires annealing with a fast quench. Slow cooling after heating isn't as effective.

CWDF digressions. You can't beat them!

In the case of single phase copper, the quench doesn't "freeze" the state. There isn't another state, or phase for it to go to. The crystals will continue to grow at temperature, but as it drops that slows and effectively stops. Cooling rate will barely affect that.

My experience is with pure copper for electronic work, so likely different from yours.

Jen ?

[Dolly P.]

17 hours ago, Slim said:

Had I known you were in the Watford area that's where I would have recommended. Did you manage to find a clear space on his counter? Notwithstanding that he's always willing to give advice and help.

Haha yes there was a small opening in the counter, lots of parts everywhere, i love places like that though haha 

16 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Pleased you got it sorted - Make sure you have a copper washer above and below each banjo

Dave very kindly checked my washers before i left to maker sure they were tip top! Thank you You're a gem. I can run my engine now and test this hot water system at last!  

[Bee]

Those little pipes do get brittle and they are fragile. Glad you got it fixed and as an aside I would recommend Boots moisturiser for that cracked skin on your fingers in the photo.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Bee

[Dolly P.]

6 minutes ago, Bee said:

Those little pipes do get brittle and they are fragile. Glad you got it fixed and as an aside I would recommend Boots moisturiser for that cracked skin on your fingers in the photo.

??? my fingers are always like that. They're forever covered in grease, dust, cuts, & scrapes. I dont think the amount of time they spend half way down my Doggo's throat trying to pull out things he shouldn't be eating helps.  Mama Goose got me a lovely Molton Brown Handwash & Moisturiser set for Christmas, smells divine! But i cant bear that clammy hands feeling you get when you moisturise haha. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Dolly P.

[George and Dragon]

26 minutes ago, Dolly P. said:

??? my fingers are always like that. They're forever covered in grease, dust, cuts, & scrapes. I dont think the amount of time they spend half way down my Doggo's throat trying to pull out things he shouldn't be eating helps.  Mama Goose got me a lovely Molton Brown Handwash & Moisturiser set for Christmas, smells divine! But i cant bear that clammy hands feeling you get when you moisturise haha. 

I hate moisturisers too. The only thing I can bear to use is O'Keeffe's Working Hands.

[Flyboy]

3 minutes ago, George and Dragon said:

I hate moisturisers too. The only thing I can bear to use is O'Keeffe's Working Hands.

My wife uses O'Keeffes Working Hands that was recommended by her doctor, and is well pleased with it.

Link for those interested https://www.superdrug.com/Skin/Body-Care/Dry-Skin/O'Keeffe's-Working-Hands-96gm/p/704752

[Dolly P.]

15 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Not in copper. The change is taking place at the annealing temperature. Cooling rate afterwards makes no difference for any that can be reasonably performed. With a small thing like a banjo washer, cooling rate is going to be relatively high anyway. With some metals cooling rate is important. I also did metallurgy!

 

16 hours ago, Flyboy said:

Not when I did metallurgy when I worked in a laboratory it didn't.  Hardness testing before and after proved otherwise. Cooling slowly only showed a slight softening whereas quenching achieved full softening.

Uhmmmmmmm with you guys being copper experts... Do you know.... if its possible to re-melt something that has been brazed back together and repaired excellently and flip it around because of this numpty right here... may have told the poor fella to fix it at the wrong angle? figured id ask here before i go back all tail between my legs to Dave, the poor guy, he really has done an excellent job.. but it wont fit on at that angle. I'm hanging my head in shame right now. ?

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, Dolly P. said:

 

Uhmmmmmmm with you guys being copper experts... Do you know.... if its possible to re-melt something that has been brazed back together and repaired excellently and flip it around because of this numpty right here... may have told the poor fella to fix it at the wrong angle? figured id ask here before i go back all tail between my legs to Dave, the poor guy, he really has done an excellent job.. but it wont fit on at that angle. I'm hanging my head in shame right now. ?

I think the pipes are steel. If they were copper you could anneal them yourself and bend them to suit but I fear that is no go.

 

Yes such things can be melted and reposition but it looks to me as if it has been brazed rather than silver soldered so it will need rather more heat and some skill because the spigot on the banjo is often brazed in place and if it gets too hot the spigot falls out. I fear you may have to go back and eat humble pie.

[Dolly P.]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think the pipes are steel. If they were copper you could anneal them yourself and bend them to suit but I fear that is no go.

 

Yes such things can be melted and reposition but it looks to me as if it has been brazed rather than silver soldered so it will need rather more heat and some skill because the spigot on the banjo is often brazed in place and if it gets too hot the spigot falls out. I fear you may have to go back and eat humble pie.

Tony, what is a spigot? is is the pokey out bit of one of these?  Because mine is just sort of one continuous pipe... does that matter? 

 

Anybody know what Dave at DFIS' in Watford's favorite biscuits are? 

[Tony Brooks]

58 minutes ago, Dolly P. said:

Tony, what is a spigot? is is the pokey out bit of one of these?  Because mine is just sort of one continuous pipe... does that matter? 

 

Anybody know what Dave at DFIS' in Watford's favorite biscuits are? 

 

 

The spigot are the bits that stick out the side, also known as hose tails. Your old ones may well have had the steel pipe fixes straight on to the round part. If you look at the repair you can see where the pipe joins the hose tail/spigot. You have two banjos with two spigots and one with one.

 

You leak off pipe is not one piece now, look at the repair. You can see the end of the original pipe plus a thinner bit that seems to be brazed onto the round bit and then brazed into the end of the original pipe. None of this matters because the flow in that pipe from the injectors is normally very low.

 

The automotive version of that engine may well have plastic pipes between the banjos but that rises some BSS  issues so marinisers often fit steel pipe like yours. When I was marinising automotive engines we used to cut the plastic pipes off and braze/silver solder on short lengths of copper pipe. Being copper it was fairly easy to bend to shape. You don't have that luxury although if you take great care to to put and strain close to the banjos you can probably make slight bends in the steel pipe.

 

FWIW we used to make a jig out of a length of wood with holes in it to suite the banjo bolt positions in the injectors. That way very little bending was needed to fit it to the injectors.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Tony Brooks

[Jen-in-Wellies]

24 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

FWIW we used to make a jig out of a length of wood with holes in it to suite the banjo bolt positions in the injectors. That way very little bending was needed to fit it to the injectors.

If you do go back it could well be worth making a cardboard mock up of the area to take with you. Mark where the banjo's go. Mark where the end of the pipe goes. Mark the route it does/should take. Mark any lumps of engine it needs to avoid. That way, the pipe can be pre-bent and brazed to fit. As the banjo's to the three connectors are in the right place you can use this as a basis and mark their centres and pipe runs on the card, then draw in where the outlet pipe should go and where the end reaches.

 

Jen

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If you do go back it could well be worth making a cardboard mock up of the area to take with you. Mark where the banjo's go. Mark where the end of the pipe goes. Mark the route it does/should take. Mark any lumps of engine it needs to avoid. That way, the pipe can be pre-bent and brazed to fit. As the banjo's to the three connectors are in the right place you can use this as a basis and mark their centres and pipe runs on the card, then draw in where the outlet pipe should go and where the end reaches.

 

Jen

Good idea

[Dolly P.]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Good idea

 

8 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If you do go back it could well be worth making a cardboard mock up of the area to take with you. Mark where the banjo's go. Mark where the end of the pipe goes. Mark the route it does/should take. Mark any lumps of engine it needs to avoid. That way, the pipe can be pre-bent and brazed to fit. As the banjo's to the three connectors are in the right place you can use this as a basis and mark their centres and pipe runs on the card, then draw in where the outlet pipe should go and where the end reaches.

 

Jen

Yes, very good idea, Thanks everyone, again. Boating is fun isn't it? haha. Hopefully C&RT wont be too upset if i cant move this weekend. ?

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Dolly P. said:

 

Yes, very good idea, Thanks everyone, again. Boating is fun ishttps://www.amazon.co.uk/Battles-Udder-Cream-400-g/dp/B00CUBSO6On't it? haha. Hopefully C&RT wont be too upset if i cant move this weekend. ?

Give them a ring and tell them you are stuck before they start screaming "Over staying" it saves a lot of agro. For chapped hands in the winter time you are hard pushed to find something better then Udder Cream as used on dairy cows. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Battles-Udder-Cream-400-g/dp/B00CUBSO6O

[dmr]

6 hours ago, Dolly P. said:

 

Yes, very good idea, Thanks everyone, again. Boating is fun isn't it? haha. Hopefully C&RT wont be too upset if i cant move this weekend. ?

Dunno where you are put half the country is in some state of lockdown, just phone CRT and tell them you don't feel well and they won't come anywhere near you ?

 

..............Dave