Advanced monitoring of onboard electronics (Victron) using Raspberry Pi

[cairanvanrooyen]

I thought i would share this - i have used code from https://github.com/diebietse/invertergui to log data from my Victron Multiplus (and USB interface) and create some really nice interactive graphs. I will extend this to include other bits as i grow the platform - temperatures, solar etc. I am also in the process of ordering a nice display to install on the boat to display the data in real time.

 

This seems to loads better than the £500 odd colour controller from Victron and have the ability to add other bits to.

 

Essentially the interface looks like the attached image and is accessible from any webpage.

[Tony Brooks]

How does the Victron Multiplus know when the batteries are fully charged? I suspect it may be a lie or a ill informed guess.

 

Nice graphs do not mean what its showing is necessarily true.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Tony Brooks

[GUMPY]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

How does the Victron Multiplus know when the batteries are fully charged? I suspect it may be a lie or a ill informed guess.

Mine said the batteries were at 67% when they were at 100% it then triggered an alarm that I couldn't disable. Battery % monitoring on the Victron is now firmly turned off as its rubbish. 

[Tony Brooks]

43 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Mine said the batteries were at 67% when they were at 100% it then triggered an alarm that I couldn't disable. Battery % monitoring on the Victron is now firmly turned off as its rubbish. 

Not what I was expecting to hear. I suspect its time based like adaptive charging dropping into float early rather than tail current but once its if float tail current is a bit meaningless. I can't see how a mains charger deciding the battery is fully charged is any more accurate than solar controller read outs.

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Not what I was expecting to hear. I suspect its time based like adaptive charging dropping into float early rather than tail current but once its if float tail current is a bit meaningless. I can't see how a mains charger deciding the battery is fully charged is any more accurate than solar controller read outs.

The only off-the-shelf "charger" I'm aware of that uses voltage and tail current measurement to do the job properly is the Wakespeed WS-500 alternator controller. That just leaves the batteries at the mercy of MPPTs when charging from solar and chargers like the Multiplus when charging from the mains, all of which use so-called smart charging which is actually pretty dumb, basically a timer to come out of absorption into float.

 

There is now a battery monitor (Balmar SG200) which does a proper job of battery capacity calculations (unlike the Smartgauge) using both voltage and current, so at least you can tell when they've been screwed up... ?

 

Annoyingly, what there doesn't seem to be is "one controller to rule them all" which properly sorts out *all* charging sources (engine, solar, mains) and battery monitoring using current and voltage, which is strange when there are now separate devices which can do this very well -- I guess they're being developed in isolation as a "world's best solution" to one single problem, ignoring everything else and the bigger picture...

[Jen-in-Wellies]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

Annoyingly, what there doesn't seem to be is "one controller to rule them all" which properly sorts out *all* charging sources (engine, solar, mains) and battery monitoring using current and voltage, which is strange when there are now separate devices which can do this very well -- I guess they're being developed in isolation as a "world's best solution" to one single problem, ignoring everything else and the bigger picture...

Why sell one box when you can sell five or six?

[GUMPY]

35 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Not what I was expecting to hear. I suspect its time based like adaptive charging dropping into float early rather than tail current but once its if float tail current is a bit meaningless. I can't see how a mains charger deciding the battery is fully charged is any more accurate than solar controller read outs.

 

My suspicion is that after 4 days away from shore power when it was 100%, despite having solar, cruising 4-5hrs a day and  the voltage being 13.07v at rest the Victron decided that I had used  >30% of available power because it had not seen any charging happen. How it does this I have no idea but it doesn't work.

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

The only off-the-shelf "charger" I'm aware of that uses voltage and tail current measurement to do the job properly is the Wakespeed WS-500 alternator controller. That just leaves the batteries at the mercy of MPPTs when charging from solar and chargers like the Multiplus when charging from the mains, all of which use so-called smart charging which is actually pretty dumb, basically a timer to come out of absorption into float.

 

There is now a battery monitor (Balmar SG200) which does a proper job of battery capacity calculations (unlike the Smartgauge) using both voltage and current, so at least you can tell when they've been screwed up... ?

 

Annoyingly, what there doesn't seem to be is "one controller to rule them all" which properly sorts out *all* charging sources (engine, solar, mains) and battery monitoring using current and voltage, which is strange when there are now separate devices which can do this very well -- I guess they're being developed in isolation as a "world's best solution" to one single problem, ignoring everything else and the bigger picture...

But there is a solution that gives you a reasonably accurate state of charge and that is knowledge, rested voltage, voltage and tail current. The current and voltage can be displayed on one display if you that is what you want.  Its the knowledge bit that is hard for some/many.

[nicknorman]

6 hours ago, cairanvanrooyen said:

I thought i would share this - i have used code from https://github.com/diebietse/invertergui to log data from my Victron Multiplus (and USB interface) and create some really nice interactive graphs. I will extend this to include other bits as i grow the platform - temperatures, solar etc. I am also in the process of ordering a nice display to install on the boat to display the data in real time.

 

This seems to loads better than the £500 odd colour controller from Victron and have the ability to add other bits to.

 

Essentially the interface looks like the attached image and is accessible from any webpage.

Looks good. Ignore the luddites.

[roland elsdon]

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

But there is a solution that gives you a reasonably accurate state of charge and that is knowledge, rested voltage, voltage and tail current. The current and voltage can be displayed on one display if you that is what you want.  Its the knowledge bit that is hard for some/many.

All true if you've got nothing better to do all day than keep an eye on charge/discharge/tail currents and battery voltages while carefully manually controlling how your alternators, MPPT and mains chargers deal with your batteries while loads are being turned on and off. The Balmar battery monitor will tell you accurately what state your battery is in, but it's up to you to then decide what to do about it. Most people either can't do this due to lack of knowledge or don't want to spend so much time and effort on it -- and actually I'd dispute that even somebody who understands all this can really keep on top of it all the time.

3 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Why sell one box when you can sell five or six?

Unfortunately there aren't even five or six boxes which can do the all the jobs properly, all the MPPT and mains chargers are still dumb timers that don't use tail current and either go to float too soon or keep triggering absorption cycles when they shouldn't, meaning the batteries are either under or over charged, which means their lifetime is a lot shorter than it should be...

Edited October 8, 2020 by IanD

[GUMPY]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

All true if you've got nothing better to do all day than keep an eye on charge/discharge/tail currents and battery voltages while carefully manually controlling how your alternators, MPPT and mains chargers deal with your batteries while loads are being turned blon and off. The Balmar battery monitor will tell you accurately what state your battery is in, but it's up to you to then decide what to do about it. Most people either can't do this due to lack of knowledge or don't want to spend so much time and effort on it -- and actually I'd dispute that even somebody who understands all this can really keep on top of it all the time.

 

Great though the Balmar appears to be,  its not available in the UK except  as a grey import, so not really an option.

/

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Loddon said:

 

Great though the Balmar appears to be,  its not available in the UK except  as a grey import, so not really an option.

/

Energy Solutions are the UK agent.

https://www.globalmarine.eu.com/balmar-appoint-energy-solutions-in-the-uk/

https://www.es-store.co.uk/product_details.php?product=BAL-BM-ACC-SG200&description=Balmar-SG200-Battery-Monitor-Kit-&manufacturer=Balmar-&mf=49

Edited October 9, 2020 by David Mack

[GUMPY]

7 hours ago, David Mack said:

Energy Solutions are the UK agent.

I know they sell them but its surprising that its official and not grey considering the possible patent infringement.

 

[Tony Brooks]

10 hours ago, IanD said:

All true if you've got nothing better to do all day than keep an eye on charge/discharge/tail currents and battery voltages while carefully manually controlling how your alternators, MPPT and mains chargers deal with your batteries while loads are being turned on and off. The Balmar battery monitor will tell you accurately what state your battery is in, but it's up to you to then decide what to do about it. Most people either can't do this due to lack of knowledge or don't want to spend so much time and effort on it -- and actually I'd dispute that even somebody who understands all this can really keep on top of it all the time.

 

and I would dispute the red bit.  First of all for optimum battery life, which is an individuals choice of the combination of effort, time, and battery life, as long as you do not want the absolute maximum battery life you only need to be on top of it, as you call it,most of the time. Once the ammeter and voltmeter are installed it is just a question of daily routine and daily routine is part of everyday life. There are admittedly a number of people who are incapable of much in the way of learning or sticking to a daily routine but they are vastly in the minority so if people can't follow the advice @WotEver has pinned at the top of the maintenance section and similar advice else where it is just down to their unwillingness to learn or laziness. You might just as well say our engines need automatic oil & coolant top up systems and automatic prop clearers because they don't want to spend too much time and effort on it. Normal people look to those things a everyday routine.

 

The whole electronic gizmo thing seems to me to be driven by the need to sell product and thus is leads to the marketing over promising to the extent that in any other walk of life lies are told. Examples are the state of charge reading on amp hour counting gauges, so called five stage battery chargers and is typified by the OP's display at the start of this topic. I note he has not returned to tell us why his state of charge reading is correct. Unless you are fault finding apart from the top row (excluding state of charge) are just eye candy and of little use day to day hour to hour, many are just showing the same basic information but in a different form. Just how vital is it to know historically the time a heavy load was applied to the batteries?

 

Its the same with cars where electronics are employed to allow manufacturers to apparently add value for little extra cost.

[TheBiscuits]

12 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

Don't believe it that reading - it isn't even plugged in!

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

and I would dispute the red bit.  First of all for optimum battery life, which is an individuals choice of the combination of effort, time, and battery life, as long as you do not want the absolute maximum battery life you only need to be on top of it, as you call it,most of the time. Once the ammeter and voltmeter are installed it is just a question of daily routine and daily routine is part of everyday life. There are admittedly a number of people who are incapable of much in the way of learning or sticking to a daily routine but they are vastly in the minority so if people can't follow the advice @WotEver has pinned at the top of the maintenance section and similar advice else where it is just down to their unwillingness to learn or laziness. You might just as well say our engines need automatic oil & coolant top up systems and automatic prop clearers because they don't want to spend too much time and effort on it. Normal people look to those things a everyday routine.

 

The whole electronic gizmo thing seems to me to be driven by the need to sell product and thus is leads to the marketing over promising to the extent that in any other walk of life lies are told. Examples are the state of charge reading on amp hour counting gauges, so called five stage battery chargers and is typified by the OP's display at the start of this topic. I note he has not returned to tell us why his state of charge reading is correct. Unless you are fault finding apart from the top row (excluding state of charge) are just eye candy and of little use day to day hour to hour, many are just showing the same basic information but in a different form. Just how vital is it to know historically the time a heavy load was applied to the batteries?

 

Its the same with cars where electronics are employed to allow manufacturers to apparently add value for little extra cost.

You're agreeing with me -- you said "as long as you do not want the absolute maximum battery life", which I'd suggest does matter for people who are proposing to spend the thick end of five grand on batteries. OK for a lightly-loaded system like I assume (maybe wrongly...) that you have, where you don't run energy-hungry appliances while cruising along so it's not so difficult to watch the battery tail current gently fall off, of course after having forced the correct absorption voltage for the correct number of hours...

 

At which point I assume you manually reduce your alternator voltage to a correctly temperature-compensated float value? (internal regulators are terrible for battery life) Do you also do the same for any solar MPPT charging? (or don't you have this). What about when you're charging from shore power, do you do the same -- or don't you do this either? Do you stop the boat and turn all the electrical loads off and let the batteries come to their open-circuit resting voltage (takes some time) to decide on SoC?

 

I'm not saying that your solution (knowledge and careful observation) doesn't work for you, but it's difficult to see how it can work for the kind on system the OP is looking for with a big and *very* expensive battery bank, heavy-duty charging from alternator/solar/shore, and a lot of electrical loads which can run at any time, even if you have a deep understanding of battery systems and are willing to spend a lot of time obsessively monitoring all the currents and voltages.

 

It's well known that simpler old-school systems (like alternators with crappy internal regulators and "smart" -- meaning dumb -- chargers) mean getting nowhere near the predicted/expected/data-sheet battery life -- anywhere from 50% reduction upwards is common -- as can be seen from the oft-repeated advice to people that they should basically regard batteries as a disposable resource. That's fine if replacing them costs a couple of hundred quid, but if it's going to cost thousands then I'd say it's better to invest in proper battery charging and management systems from the beginning. This might not be what happens on most narrowboats, but it's certainly common in other areas (yachts, RVs, offline power systems) which also need a long-life high-power electrical system -- which is exactly what the OP is proposing, like it or not.

 

Which means using some of that horrible modern technology that some people seem to hate so much. If you don't like it you don't have to use it, but accept that your solution isn't right for everybody even if it works for you, and not everybody who has different needs is automatically "wrong" ?

 

P.S. Independent tests have shown that the Balmar battery monitor does a very good job of measuring the *real* SoC and SoH of batteries -- much better than Smartgauge -- when both charging and discharging, because it takes account of battery chemistry, internal resistance, temperature, tail current and so on. Sometimes modern technology can easily do what was previously very difficult even for an expert...

Edited October 9, 2020 by IanD

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Loddon said:

I know they sell them but its surprising that its official and not grey considering the possible patent infringement.

 

Nobody knows what the patent position is, but given that Balmar sell both their new monitor and the Smartgauge I expect they've got this covered. My guess is that they licensed the Smartgauge patent(s), or maybe did a cross-licensing deal, or maybe they don't infringe them (if Smartgauge patented using only voltage and not current), or maybe even had a legal opinion that they wouldn't stand up in court due to prior art or being obvious -- just because a patent has been granted doesn't mean that somebody else can't use the technology.

 

And yes I do know how all this works in real life not just in theory, I've been involved in patent disputes... ?

Edited October 9, 2020 by IanD

[Tony Brooks]

44 minutes ago, IanD said:

You're agreeing with me -- you said "as long as you do not want the absolute maximum battery life", which I'd suggest does matter for people who are proposing to spend the thick end of five grand on batteries. OK for a lightly-loaded system like I assume (maybe wrongly...) that you have, where you don't run energy-hungry appliances while cruising along so it's not so difficult to watch the battery tail current gently fall off, of course after having forced the correct absorption voltage for the correct number of hours...

 

At which point I assume you manually reduce your alternator voltage to a correctly temperature-compensated float value? (internal regulators are terrible for battery life) Do you also do the same for any solar MPPT charging? (or don't you have this). What about when you're charging from shore power, do you do the same -- or don't you do this either? Do you stop the boat and turn all the electrical loads off and let the batteries come to their open-circuit resting voltage (takes some time) to decide on SoC?

 

I'm not saying that your solution (knowledge and careful observation) doesn't work for you, but it's difficult to see how it can work for the kind on system the OP is looking for with a big and *very* expensive battery bank, heavy-duty charging from alternator/solar/shore, and a lot of electrical loads which can run at any time, even if you have a deep understanding of battery systems and are willing to spend a lot of time obsessively monitoring all the currents and voltages.

 

It's well known that simpler old-school systems (like alternators with crappy internal regulators and "smart" -- meaning dumb -- chargers) mean getting nowhere near the predicted/expected/data-sheet battery life -- anywhere from 50% reduction upwards is common -- as can be seen from the oft-repeated advice to people that they should basically regard batteries as a disposable resource. That's fine if replacing them costs a couple of hundred quid, but if it's going to cost thousands then I'd say it's better to invest in proper battery charging and management systems from the beginning. This might not be what happens on most narrowboats, but it's certainly common in other areas (yachts, RVs, offline power systems) which also need a long-life high-power electrical system -- which is exactly what the OP is proposing, like it or not.

 

Which means using some of that horrible modern technology that some people seem to hate so much. If you don't like it you don't have to use it, but accept that your solution isn't right for everybody even if it works for you, and not everybody who has different needs is automatically "wrong" ?

 

P.S. Independent tests have shown that the Balmar battery monitor does a very good job of measuring the *real* SoC and SoH of batteries -- much better than Smartgauge -- when both charging and discharging, because it takes account of battery chemistry, internal resistance, temperature, tail current and so on. Sometimes modern technology can easily do what was previously very difficult even for an expert...

Interesting that you do address the utility of many of those display graphs and the accuracy of that state of charge..

 

What I hate is where the sellers of such technology do not make the limitations of their technologies clear in the pre-sales blurb. They also hide very important procedures in respect of accuracy deep in the instructions. There are more than ample examples of people who have been caught out by this and ruined batteries in this. If you want long battery life you need to get a good understanding of them and instruments that tell lies. This applies to lead acids and lithiums. Lead acids need s procedures to minimise sulphation and cycles where as far as  can  understand) LIs need their cells to be kept balanced and protected from extremes of temperature. As three members here have demonstrated is that you do not need expensive control systems on LIs, just an understanding of of the requirements and ensuring these are met in an economical way.

 

I have not criticised the Balmar gauge that you like because it is not very common on the UK inland system (this is a canal forum - read the name) so there is very little user feedback. I have criticised this modern fashion for reliance on all sorts or gizmos and gauges As was  pointed out in the other similar topic we are back to Whitfield again.

[IanD]

31 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Interesting that you do address the utility of many of those display graphs and the accuracy of that state of charge..

 

What I hate is where the sellers of such technology do not make the limitations of their technologies clear in the pre-sales blurb. They also hide very important procedures in respect of accuracy deep in the instructions. There are more than ample examples of people who have been caught out by this and ruined batteries in this. If you want long battery life you need to get a good understanding of them and instruments that tell lies. This applies to lead acids and lithiums. Lead acids need s procedures to minimise sulphation and cycles where as far as  can  understand) LIs need their cells to be kept balanced and protected from extremes of temperature. As three members here have demonstrated is that you do not need expensive control systems on LIs, just an understanding of of the requirements and ensuring these are met in an economical way.

 

I have not criticised the Balmar gauge that you like because it is not very common on the UK inland system (this is a canal forum - read the name) so there is very little user feedback. I have criticised this modern fashion for reliance on all sorts or gizmos and gauges As was  pointed out in the other similar topic we are back to Whitfield again.

I'm not in favour of flashy technology that just makes pretty graphs (ooh, look at that, shiny shiny...) or gizmos and gauges that look impressive but tell lies (lots of these around), but I am in favour of it when it actually does something useful.

 

Lithiums are easier to deal with in many ways than lead-acids (no sulphation, no absorption, no real charge/discharge limit) but more difficult in others (can be killed in new and different ways, need non-standard charging regimes and protection) -- you can't get away with a really dumb system like you can with lead-acids. But lead-acids are if anything harder to deal with and get close to the design lifetime because the chemistry is more complex, not helped by the fact that most kit doesn't treat them properly, and until recently nothing really gave a true estimate of SoC and SoH for them.

 

I'm perfectly aware this is a canal forum, and that many people have used (and been happy with) the Smartguage, but others have disparaged it for its problems (not using current, nor reading correctly during charging or heavy discharge, inaccuracy) -- the reason for mentioning the Balmar (which I have no experience of, only read about) is because it looks like it actually solves these problems even if nobody on the UK canals has used it yet, so I thought maybe people would be interested in it. Of course they'll then probably complain it's too expensive... ?

 

(but it might save money in the long-term if it helps extend battery life...)

 

Exactly the same for the Wakespeed alternator controller -- even if nobody has used it here yet, it looks like this solves the well-known problems of how to get alternators to charge up big batteries quickly without frying the alternator and treat them properly in absorption/float (using tail current) to maximise life. Again it's not cheap, but could be cheaper in the long-term than replacing batteries and/or alternators.

 

To me these both look like (rare) examples of technology used properly (but not on the canals yet), instead of providing something which looks pretty but is mainly useless ?

Edited October 9, 2020 by IanD

[GUMPY]

57 minutes ago, IanD said:

the reason for mentioning the Balmar (which I have no experience of, only read about) is because it looks like it actually solves these problems even if nobody on the UK canals has used it yet, so I thought maybe people would be interested in it. Of course they'll then probably complain it's too expensive... ?

If you want expensive then this

https://www.merlinequipment.com/product/2-1-2-3-3-datacell-2-battery-monitor/

Is the ultimate

 

I will keep on using my Smartgauge and current/voltage meter knowing that it tells me all I need to keep my LA batteries in good condition.

Yes I do check SOC in the middle of the night when its dark to mitigate the effect of the Solar 

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Loddon

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

Exactly the same for the Wakespeed alternator controller -- even if nobody has used it here yet, it looks like this solves the well-known problems of how to get alternators to charge up big batteries quickly without frying the alternator and treat them properly in absorption/float (using tail current) to maximise life. Again it's not cheap, but could be cheaper in the long-term than replacing batteries and/or alternators.

 

To me these both look like (rare) examples of technology used properly (but not on the canals yet), instead of providing something which looks pretty but is mainly useless ?

One member has the predecessor of the Wakespeed alternator controller, before it got expensive! Now it is $500 which is a bit pricy. My home made equivalent cost about £50, plus a lot of time of course. One problem is that such things are not plug-in accessories, they require “surgery” on the alternator to make the right connections.

[gbclive]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

Yes I do check SOC in the middle of the night when its dark to mitigate the effect of the Solar 

I used to do that too, but now I have an isolator between the panels and the controller?

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, gbclive said:

I used to do that too, but now I have an isolator between the panels and the controller?

So you must be either very lucky or one of out younger members. Judicious siting of the voltmeter so its easy to look a duiring the what seem to be an almost mandatory 3 am walkabout takes little time and ensures the batteries are well reasetd.

[GUMPY]

9 minutes ago, gbclive said:

I used to do that too, but now I have an isolator between the panels and the controller?

 I do have to get up and pass the SG anyway on the way to the heads, so its no hardship to read.

It is one of the reasons that on Loddon all the meters, heater control etc are sited on the accomodation side of the bed and not in the engine space.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Loddon