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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

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Its not the charging system that worries me. When that goes wrong its so vital and so complicated a Victron engineer will almost certainly be needed. Its adding the tank  level gauges and no doubt in time other system to it like entertainment and lightning circuits that I think may not be such a good idea.

There are probably fewer things to go wrong with monitoring like this than there are with measuring and displaying everything separately with discrete power/signal wires and little gauges -- it's exactly the reason that cars are going this way, easier to put together and more reliable. But like a modern car, when something does go wrong it can be a nightmare to debug. Best example of this I ever came across was one of the first Fords (Focus?) to use CAN bus for everything; if the rear wiper stops, the fix is to replace the spark plugs. Imagine trying to justify that to a customer who thinks they're being ripped off...

 

[when the spark pugs got worn the engine management system turned up the juice to compensate, which generated more interference. The rear wiper was the furthest module from the controller on the CAN bus with the weakest signal so it stopped working first...]

 

I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when whichever development engineer who worked this out had to convince management to issue a service bulletin about it ?

27 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Perhaps then this technology is best suited to a state of the art electric powered automotive application  rather than a crude engineering narrow boat on a 200+ year old system at 3mph?

No, it's suited to people who want the electrical luxuries of modern life on a narrowboat and are willing to pay extra to get them. Nothing to do with the age of the system or the speed or the width of the boat, all this kind of thing is common on lumpy water boats whose owners often have richer tastes and *much* deeper pockets than narrowboat owners ?

Edited by IanD
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On 07/10/2020 at 13:12, IanD said:

With those power levels you might be better going for a 24V (or even 48V) house system; according to Beta Marine it's possible to fit 2 24V 100A alternators to the Beta 50 (with brush boxes and an external alternator controller) which will generate 5kW together with a Victron Multiplus II (24V/3000 or 48V/5000), and this would cost much less than a Travelpower.

 

It would also mean you don't need to run the engine for hours when under heavy power load. Output at charging rpm is higher than even the Travelpower 5kW (see attached plots) so you can run at lower rpm, you could charge your proposed 5kWh LiFePO4 bank from 20% to 100% in less than an hour at 1200rpm (good for neighbours).

 

This would give you higher peak power (if you need it) and also be much more flexible if you want to draw power from onshore and add in onboard for higher power draw. Don't forget that you can't use the Travelpower and Multiplus you suggested (or incoming mains) together to generate AC power, the Travelpower puts out 115V AC on live and the opposite phase on neutral, both Multiplus and mains put 230V on live and 0V on neutral, so can't be connected together for obvious reasons...

 

alternators.PNG

Very helpful IanD! Ideally I would like to not use the TravelPower

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27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Have you yet done your Power Audit ?

 

If you are having some 'heavy usage appliances' then you may not have a choice about the TravelPower.

He does have a choice which is big alternators (with external control) and a big inverter -- which can supply higher peak power than a TravelPower (and can add to shoreline power), more power at low revs, works with the engine off, and costs less.

 

It's only when you did deep into the TravelPower data sheet that you find the disadvantages -- the big one rated at 5kW needs the engine to run at 2000rpm to produce this, it's down to 3kW at 1250rpm, and the split-phase output (115V on live and neutral) means it can only be used standalone, not together with an inverter or shore power.

Edited by IanD
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20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Have you yet done your Power Audit ?

 

If you are having some 'heavy usage appliances' then you may not have a choice about the TravelPower.

I am most of the way through my power audit but the clear challenge is a washer dryer and my wife's hair straighteners and hairdryer (the usual boat power issues no doubt!).

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33 minutes ago, stevencarr29 said:

Very helpful IanD! Ideally I would like to not use the TravelPower

We have a Travelpower and a Beta with 175A alternator (and the small starter alternator). I am glad we coughed up for the TP.

 

You should bear in mind that whilst the 175A alternator is a good bit of kit, like most vehicle-type alternators it is not really designed for continuous operation at maximum load. With your lithium batteries able to hoover up huge currents, the alternator will be flat out until the batteries are nearly fully charged. Then if you want to run a heavy load like a washing machine, tumble drier etc again the alternator will be flat out and the belt squeaking unless the engine revs are above idle.
 

I have no hard evidence but my opinion is that it will have a relatively short life.

 

The TP alternator runs at 300v and thus with much less current for the same power output, than the 12v alternator and thus it runs much cooler.

 

Having a TP gives you an alternative means of charging via the Combi if (maybe when) the 175A alternator fails. Redundancy is a good thing! You can set the Combi up to share the input sources (TP and 12v alternator) when running a heavy load like a tumble drier, thus avoiding straining either.

 

Finally I will mention that you need to be careful with the Li batteries. Although they are sold as plug and play / drop in LA a replacements, they still don’t like being held at 14.4v or whatever if you cruise for a long day. Lots of stuff on here about Li batteries. They are great in many ways, but one needs to understand what they like and don’t like as they represent a very large investment!

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10 minutes ago, stevencarr29 said:

I am most of the way through my power audit but the clear challenge is a washer dryer and my wife's hair straighteners and hairdryer (the usual boat power issues no doubt!).

I would repectfully suggest that rather than lithiums, it may be worthwhile to have FLA batteries for the first 2 or 3 months whilst you get the hang of managing boat electrics. Its kinder on the pocket to kill £500 of FLA's than £5,000 of LI's

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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6 minutes ago, stevencarr29 said:

I am most of the way through my power audit but the clear challenge is a washer dryer and my wife's hair straighteners and hairdryer (the usual boat power issues no doubt!).

A heat-pump washer-drier is expensive but saves a huge amount of energy and water when drying.

 

https://www.aeg.co.uk/laundry/laundry/washer-dryers/free-standing-washer-dryer/l9wec169r3/

 

Separate washer and heat-pump drier would maybe be cheaper and dry more quicker but only if you have the space...

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11 minutes ago, stevencarr29 said:

I am most of the way through my power audit but the clear challenge is a washer dryer and my wife's hair straighteners and hairdryer (the usual boat power issues no doubt!).

That sounds to me like an generator may be the best solution.

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17 minutes ago, IanD said:

...and the split-phase output (115V on live and neutral) means it can only be used standalone, not together with an inverter or shore power.

Absolutely not true. Or misleading at any rate.

 

You cannot use any generator “together” with shore power because the phase and frequencies won’t be matched.

 

You absolutely can use a TP with a Combi. We do it all the time. The Combi matches frequency and phase with the TP and the TP is “passed through” the Combi with its centre-tapped voltage. The Combi, in the presence of incoming mains from the TP, doesn’t activate its NE bond relay, thus is output is floating and aligns with the centre tapped TP voltage if you are using it in power boost mode.

Edited by nicknorman
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47 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

We have a Travelpower and a Beta with 175A alternator (and the small starter alternator). I am glad we coughed up for the TP.

 

You should bear in mind that whilst the 175A alternator is a good bit of kit, like most vehicle-type alternators it is not really designed for continuous operation at maximum load. With your lithium batteries able to hoover up huge currents, the alternator will be flat out until the batteries are nearly fully charged. Then if you want to run a heavy load like a washing machine, tumble drier etc again the alternator will be flat out and the belt squeaking unless the engine revs are above idle.
 

I have no hard evidence but my opinion is that it will have a relatively short life.

 

The TP alternator runs at 300v and thus with much less current for the same power output, than the 12v alternator and thus it runs much cooler.

 

Having a TP gives you an alternative means of charging via the Combi if (maybe when) the 175A alternator fails. Redundancy is a good thing! You can set the Combi up to share the input sources (TP and 12v alternator) when running a heavy load like a tumble drier, thus avoiding straining either.

 

Finally I will mention that you need to be careful with the Li batteries. Although they are sold as plug and play / drop in LA a replacements, they still don’t like being held at 14.4v or whatever if you cruise for a long day. Lots of stuff on here about Li batteries. They are great in many ways, but one needs to understand what they like and don’t like as they represent a very large investment!

I've talked to Beta Marine extensively about this. The Iskra alternators do need keeping cool (just like the Travelpower does), and they each have about half the belt load (2 x K6 polyvee) that the TravelPower does (single K6 polyvee), Beta's opinion is that reliability/wear/temperature is better not worse, especially using 100A/24V instead of 175A/12V. The TP doesn't have internal diodes to keep cool which helps, but the winding power density is even higher than the 24V/100A alternators -- these run cooler than the 12V/175A, which is why I suggested a 24V house battery bank, or even 48V is you want to use the Multiplus II 5kW.

 

An external alternator controller is absolutely essential with LiFePO4 is you're not going to destroy them. Some of these can also pull back alternator load at idle to prevent overheating and reduce engine/belt load.

 

The TravelPower was a good (standalone) solution to onboard power in its day, but if you're going to have a big battery bank anyway there are better ones available today with the advent of cheaper efficient inverter/chargers and good alternator controllers.

41 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Absolutely not true. Or misleading at any rate.

 

You cannot use any generator “together” with shore power because the phase and frequencies won’t be matched.

 

You absolutely can use a TP with a Combi. We do it all the time. The Combi matches frequency and phase with the TP and the TP is “passed through” the Combi with its centre-tapped voltage. The Combi, in the presence of incoming mains from the TP, doesn’t activate its NE bond relay, thus is output is floating and aligns with the centre tapped TP voltage if you are using it in power boost mode.

I'm surprised that's allowed, AFAIK it's specifically not recommended for (most?) combis, but I'm happy to be proved wrong about this.

 

The fact remains that the TravelPower is an expensive solution which was appropriate before the days of big battery banks (especially LiFePO4) and powerful inverter/chargers. If you have these anyway, the alternators and controller are less than half the cost of a TravelPower -- actually, even with the inverter/combi added the cost is still lower.

Edited by IanD
TP belt is K6 not K8
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13 minutes ago, IanD said:

I've talked to Beta Marine extensively about this. The Iskra alternators do need keeping cool (just like the Travelpower does), and they each have about half the belt load (2 x K6 polyvee) that the TravelPower does (single K8 polyvee), Beta's opinion is that reliability/wear/temperature is better not worse, especially using 100A/24V instead of 175A/12V. The TP doesn't have internal diodes to keep cool which helps, but the winding power density is even higher than the 24V/100A alternators -- these run cooler than the 12V/175A, which is why I suggested a 24V house battery bank, or even 48V is you want to use the Multiplus II 5kW.

 

An external alternator controller is absolutely essential with LiFePO4 is you're not going to destroy them. Some of these can also pull back alternator load at idle to prevent overheating and reduce engine/belt load.

 

The TravelPower was a good (standalone) solution to onboard power in its day, but if you're going to have a big battery bank anyway there are better ones available today with the advent of cheaper efficient inverter/chargers and good alternator controllers.

I disagree, and my opinion is based on 10 years of ownership of a 175A alternator and a 3.5kw travelpower. They are physically similar in size.

We have a 2kw tumble drier. That takes all the 175A from the alternator and maybe a bit more. After a few minutes it is VERY hot, as in 150C. So we don’t do that, we take 2kw out of the TP which it delivers without breaking into a sweat. Maybe it would get as hot as the alternator if we ran it at its full load of 3.5kw but we don’t do that.

 

You are advocating 24v over 12v because it runs cooler because the current is less. I am advocating 300v because it runs cooler still because the current is much, much less, even if the winding density is a bit more.

 

Oh and not sure about your comments on the belts, on our engine (2010 Beta 43) the polyvee belts for the alternator and TP are the same width, and there is one each. And the crankshaft pulley is bigger for the TP than for the alternator.

Edited by nicknorman
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16 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I disagree, and my opinion is based on 10 years of ownership of a 175A alternator and a 3.5kw travelpower. They are physically similar in size.

We have a 2kw tumble drier. That takes all the 175A from the alternator and maybe a bit more. After a few minutes it is VERY hot, as in 150C. So we don’t do that, we take 2kw out of the TP which it delivers without breaking into a sweat. Maybe it would get as hot as the alternator if we ran it at its full load of 3.5kw but we don’t do that.

 

You are advocating 24v over 12v because it runs cooler because the current is less. I am advocating 300v because it runs cooler still because the current is much, much less, even if the winding density is a bit more.

You're still not reading what I said. Yes a single 12V/175A alternator will run *way* hotter than a Travelpower when providing 2kW. Conversely, *two* 24V/100A alternators (providing 1kW each) will run cooler than a TP providing 2kW (yes I've looked at the actual efficiencies) and be easier on the belts, and *much* cheaper. Go and look at the actual numbers including heat dissipation, that's what I did.

 

I'm advocating 24V (or even 48V) for a high-power system because of smaller wiring and more efficient inverters -- the Multiplus II 48/5000 (probably needed for the kind of power levels the OP is looking for) doesn't have a 24V version.

 

The pulley ratio is bigger for the TP (bigger diameter crank) but the belt loading is still higher than 2 alternators (which have a belt each), especially if it's also K6 -- I thought Beta said K8 but this might have been for the other high-power alternators I was looking at (Balmar 48V 100A). Higher voltage alternators are more efficient, but also very expensive (and a problem if they go wrong) -- the Balmar 48V/100A is over 3 grand including pulleys, the two 24V/100A Iskras are a fifth of this...

 

Your solution was great 10 years ago, nowadays we can do better ?

Edited by IanD
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14 minutes ago, IanD said:

You're still not reading what I said. Yes a single 12V/175A alternator will run *way* hotter than a Travelpower when providing 2kW. Conversely, *two* 24V/100A alternators (providing 1kW each) will run cooler than a TP providing 2kW (yes I've looked at the actual efficiencies) and be easier on the belts. Go and look at the actual numbers including heat dissipation, that's what I did.

 

Your solution was great 10 years ago, nowadays we can do better ?

I did read what you said. You didn’t really say TWO 24v alternators although I guess this is where your two belts for the alternator(s) comes from!

 

So you are proposing two 24v alternators. But that doesn’t seem to be an option looking at the Beta website. Maybe it is something Beta would do as a special order?

 

Downside is all your eggs are in one basket in terms of mains power. If the Combi conks out, no mains power. Whereas with a TP you have an alternative source of mains power.

 

I think you are compromising redundancy of mains power to solve a non-existent problem, because the TP is quite happy supplying 2kw for prolonged periods without getting unduly hot.

 

And if you use power boost on the Combi, you can have 1kw from the TP and 1kw from the 12v alternator if you want to reduce belt loads.

 

This is what we do because the TP doesn’t really like supplying 2kw at idle (when passing those endless lines of badly moored boats!).

Edited by nicknorman
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24 minutes ago, IanD said:

A generator to provide 5kVA continuously and quietly is *very* expensive...

No too bad if it is installed in the boat during build.

A 6Kva is £6000 + VAT

 

It would be well under £9k installed

 

https://www.advanceyacht.co.uk/marine-generators-paguro/paguro-6000

 

A 3.0Kva (equivalent to a Travelpower ?) would be £2000 less

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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10 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I did read what you said. You didn’t really say TWO 24v alternators although I guess this is where your two belts for the alternator(s) comes from!

 

So you are proposing two 24v alternators. But that doesn’t seem to be an option looking at the Beta website. Maybe it is something Beta would do as a special order?

 

Downside is all your eggs are in one basket in terms of mains power. If the Combi conks out, no mains power. Whereas with a TP you have an alternative source of mains power.

 

I think you are compromising redundancy of mains power to solve a non-existent problem, because the TP is quite happy supplying 2kw for prolonged periods without getting unduly hot.

 

And if you use power sharing on the Combi, you can have 1kw from the TP and 1kw from the 12v alternator if you want to reduce belt loads.

Two alternators (three if you include then small 12V engine one) is a standard option on the Beta 43, and it is what I said (see labels on graphs), and cost is about 600 quid, about a fifth of a Travelpower. They're also standard and widely available.

 

Yes you're relying on the combi for mains, You're also relying on the engine for propulsion. You can only take redundancy so far...

 

(and if you're that worried use two combis in parallel, if one dies you can still use the other -- and still cheaper than a TP, and more power at lower engine revs, and more peak power)

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No too bad if it is installed in the boat during build.

A 6Kva is £6000 + VAT

 

It would be well under £9k installed

 

https://www.advanceyacht.co.uk/marine-generators-paguro/paguro-6000

So only 3x the cost then... ?

 

(and needs regular servicing on top of normal engine)

Edited by IanD
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2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Two alternators is a standard option on the Beta 43, and it is what I said (see labels on graphs), and cost is about 600 quid, about a fifth of a Travelpower. They're also standard and widely available.

 

Yes you're relying on the combi for mains, You're also relying on the engine for propulsion. You can only take redundancy so far...

 

(and if you're that worried use two combis in parallel, if one dies you can still use the other -- and still cheaper than a TP, and more power at lower engine revs, and more peak power)

So only 3x the cost then... ?

 

(and needs regular servicing on top of normal engine)

For 3x the power output.

A 2KVa would be £4000 + VAT,

 

You also need to consider the benefits of not running a 'huge' engine (with wear & tear etc) just to power (say) your hair dryer.

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3 minutes ago, IanD said:

Two alternators is a standard option on the Beta 43, and it is what I said (see labels on graphs), and cost is about 600 quid, about a fifth of a Travelpower. They're also standard and widely available.

...

 

Two alternators is standard on Beta 43 but one is the small 45A starter battery alternator driven by a v belt. That cannot easily be replaced by a large alternator operated by a polyvee.

 

Can you actually provide any evidence that Beta will supply an engine with 2 x 24v 100A alternators (with or without a third small starter battery alternator)?
 

To help you, I enclose the current “electrical options” page for the Beta 43 on Beta’s website.

 

1E1BE98A-8975-4EEB-A29D-638CCDA86A6F.png.b5c23deb9c6c0929661a154a851c9137.png

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

For 3x the power output.

A 2KVa would be £4000 + VAT,

 

You also need to consider the benefits of not running a 'huge' engine (with wear & tear etc) just to power (say) your hair dryer.

Multiplus II 48/5000 is £1600 including VAT. You don't have to run the engine just to power your hair dryer, the inverter does that. You run the engine (if not travelling) when the LiFePO4 bank needs recharging. The extra wear and tear on this is tiny compared to cruising -- or the regular servicing that a generator needs.

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10 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Yes you're relying on the combi for mains, You're also relying on the engine for propulsion. You can only take redundancy so far...

 

True, but there is no point in dispensing with redundancy without good reason / significant gains in other areas.

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

You also need to consider the benefits of not running a 'huge' engine (with wear & tear etc) just to power (say) your hair dryer.

... which is where lithium batteries come in! Use hair dryer today, charge batteries tomorrow, next day etc when you go cruising.

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13 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Two alternators is standard on Beta 43 but one is the small 45A starter battery alternator driven by a v belt. That cannot easily be replaced by a large alternator operated by a polyvee.

 

Can you actually provide any evidence that Beta will supply an engine with 2 x 24v 100A alternators (with or without a third small starter battery alternator)?
 

To help you, I enclose the current “electrical options” page for the Beta 43 on Beta’s website.

 

1E1BE98A-8975-4EEB-A29D-638CCDA86A6F.png.b5c23deb9c6c0929661a154a851c9137.png

My evidence is that I've actually spoken to Tim Watts at Beta about it ?

 

The list you showed (and various pictures, see the hybrid setup here) show 2 extra alternators, in the list they're 80A/24V in lieu of standard *plus* 100A/24V port side mounted, these are not exclusive, they can be fitted together (each with their own belt). And Beta don't care exactly which alternator is fitted, they're all physically the same Iskra case, 2 the same or different is no problem (12V/175A or 24V/80A or 24V/100A). Cost with the brush boxes fitted (to allow external regulator) is £670+VAT for dual 24V/100A (80A are not available with isolated ground, only 100A).

Beta43dualalt.jpg

Edited by IanD
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45 minutes ago, IanD said:

My evidence is that I've actually spoken to Tim Watts at Beta about it ?

 

The list you showed (and various pictures, see the hybrid setup here) show 2 extra alternators, in the list they're 80A/24V in lieu of standard *plus* 100A/24V port side mounted, these are not exclusive, they can be fitted together (each with their own belt). And Beta don't care exactly which alternator is fitted, they're all physically the same Iskra case, 2 the same or different is no problem (12V/175A or 24V/80A or 24V/100A). Cost with the brush boxes fitted (to allow external regulator) is £670+VAT for dual 24V/100A (80A are not available with isolated ground, only 100A).

Beta43dualalt.jpg

I do wonder why they still hang a little alternator on there these days as it does next to nothing unless the other 2 are 24 volts

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