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Can't blame CaRT for this one


Midnight

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Is Victor from NBW loosing the plot? In a recent article he blames CaRT for hire boats sinking in locks by getting caught up on the cill. (Victor: Will CaRT ever act on cill sinkings?). Now there's none more than I who think CaRT management are f*&!ing w@&^%ers not fit for purpose, but blaming CaRT for this is way off target. If it's hire boats that's the issue then it's surely down to the hire companies to make hirers aware of the danger and should take newbies through at least one lock to demonstrate the procedure - up or down they could point out the cill and other hazards. I know some do but back when we hired not one hire company every showed us how to work a lock Notices like "Keep forward of the cill" are pretty clear if you know what a cill is and I'm sure I've seen signs with graphics showing a boat hung up on the cill.

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40 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Is Victor from NBW loosing the plot? In a recent article he blames CaRT for hire boats sinking in locks by getting caught up on the cill. (Victor: Will CaRT ever act on cill sinkings?). Now there's none more than I who think CaRT management are f*&!ing w@&^%ers not fit for purpose, but blaming CaRT for this is way off target. If it's hire boats that's the issue then it's surely down to the hire companies to make hirers aware of the danger and should take newbies through at least one lock to demonstrate the procedure - up or down they could point out the cill and other hazards. I know some do but back when we hired not one hire company every showed us how to work a lock Notices like "Keep forward of the cill" are pretty clear if you know what a cill is and I'm sure I've seen signs with graphics showing a boat hung up on the cill.

Agreed. I suspect Victor is showing signs of being affected by a serious modern illness in which a person believes that when they want to do something they should always be free to make the decision about whether to or not, unfettered by regulations whilst when they see something going wrong it is 'their' job to prevent people from making the wrong decision/action in the first place. As far as I am aware, 'scientists' have yet to find a vaccine against this illness - even if they succeed I suspect there are already too many people infected with it who will join the antivaxer brigade.

 

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10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I always chuckle at the "keep forward of the cill" signs. Just how do you do that when going up? Its an irrelevance.

Me too. CaRT (and BW before them) even cater for those who cannot read by adding a pretty obvious ideogram! Still, they cannot do much about those who won't read.

 

Incidentally, the very sad Droitwich case that was referred to in NBW was not a direct result of a cilling and sinking but from a subsequent action which CaRT cannot be expected to advise about explicitly.

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I think they're daft. Since they've been applied there seems to have been far more boats getting cilled. I think because of them, going down many folk risk keeping back close to the markers as possible to prevent bumping bottom gates or something, whereas before the markers folk new the cills there but didn't always know the extent they stuck out, therefore kept well forward just in case.          You would need a boat about 2ft long to keep forward of the cill marker.

  Not to mention folk playing smart phones at the locks when they should have been paying attention to their boats going up or down.

 

  Here is the letter K I left out of new. :closedeyes:

Edited by bizzard
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1 hour ago, Midnight said:

Is Victor from NBW loosing the plot? In a recent article he blames CaRT for hire boats sinking in locks by getting caught up on the cill. (Victor: Will CaRT ever act on cill sinkings?). Now there's none more than I who think CaRT management are f*&!ing w@&^%ers not fit for purpose, but blaming CaRT for this is way off target. If it's hire boats that's the issue then it's surely down to the hire companies to make hirers aware of the danger and should take newbies through at least one lock to demonstrate the procedure - up or down they could point out the cill and other hazards. I know some do but back when we hired not one hire company every showed us how to work a lock Notices like "Keep forward of the cill" are pretty clear if you know what a cill is and I'm sure I've seen signs with graphics showing a boat hung up on the cill.

I think someone, no names, no pack drill, is magnetising the sills.

 

 

 

Is magnetman around?

 

 

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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Just the 'opposite side of the coin' :

 

Anyone allowing the 'public' to use their facilities has a duty of care to ensure that they are used correctly and that any risks are minimised by clear instructions, either verbally or 'graphically'..

 

On the Golf course, we had a 'dog-leg' hole where people could be teeing off and not able to see if there was anyone in the area where the ball may land. We had to install a big bell on the Tee-Box so it could be rung to warn those 'around the bend' that there may be a ball coming.

 

Another golf-course had to install a periscope so that those teeing off could check if there was anyone on the public footpath over the brow of the rise.

 

I'm sure the C&RT 'sign producing department' would love the opportunity to produce some additional ones.

 

They already have the basis for the sign in the 'Boaters Handbook'

 

Maybe issuing a boaters handbook with every licence issued, and agreeing with the hire industry that every booking received a copy would go a fair way to proving they had 'made the effort' to educate.

 

 

 

Screenshot (372).png

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It can't be beyond the hire firms to install an alarm, triggered by a directional tilt switch. As much as craft roll side to side, in normal use they would not pitch forward or aft. Fitted with a similar mute button as found on vehicles with parking sensors in the event of running aground, i doubt there would be too many false alarms. 

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1 hour ago, bizzard said:

Not to mention folk playing smart phones at the locks when they should have been paying attention to their boats going up or down

 

That's an endemic problem - pedestrians, cyclists, boaters, drivers - sme folk are plain stupid (or they have even less imagination than I do).

26 minutes ago, BWM said:

It can't be beyond the hire firms to install an alarm, triggered by a directional tilt switch. As much as craft roll side to side, in normal use they would not pitch forward or aft. Fitted with a similar mute button as found on vehicles with parking sensors in the event of running aground, i doubt there would be too many false alarms. 

 

I suspect that such a device would just prompt a reaction of "What the feck is that noise?" followed by several seconds of inaction, instead of persuading boaters to concentrate properly in the first place.

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Surely if it is a mainly hire problem (is there any evidence this is true) then surely the company don't want their boats sunk so should be giving the required training.   Either at an actual lock is one is near enough or by a compulsory video/teaching session.

 

It can't be good for profits having a boat sunk.

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2 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

That's an endemic problem - pedestrians, cyclists, boaters, drivers - sme folk are plain stupid (or they have even less imagination than I do).

 

I suspect that such a device would just prompt a reaction of "What the feck is that noise?" followed by several seconds of inaction, instead of persuading boaters to concentrate properly in the first place.

It would be fitted with an impossible to ignore klaxon type siren, and terms/conditions modified to place any loss on the hirer if action not taken - money tends to grab people's attention!

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15 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

That's an endemic problem - pedestrians, cyclists, boaters, drivers - sme folk are plain stupid (or they have even less imagination than I do).

 

I suspect that such a device would just prompt a reaction of "What the feck is that noise?" followed by several seconds of inaction, instead of persuading boaters to concentrate properly in the first place.

Even up here at the top of the Stort where its relatively quite I see boats approaching our lock at speed with the driver playing Smart phones, suddenly looks up, see's the lock gates, panic, huge roar from the engine in reverse to try and stop it.  Cart should make a law, no phones to be played with at all whilst driving a boat or when locking or be heavily fined if caught at it.  Of course no one ever ever admits to ever doing this, on this ere forum as well.:)

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If it is mostly hirers, which I'm not sure of, then it comes down again to the wilfull ignorance of those who do something potentially dangerous without any research. People buy chainsaws in the same way.

But something like this can happen to the most careful of us. It only takes one small lapse of attention at the wrong time and glug... A friend of mine hung up and sank at Wardle, and I left the boat in reverse and nearly did the same, both of us with over twenty years experience. It's just that 99% of the time you get away with it, same as car driving errors.

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2 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

If it is mostly hirers, which I'm not sure of, then it comes down again to the wilfull ignorance of those who do something potentially dangerous without any research. People buy chainsaws in the same way.

But something like this can happen to the most careful of us. It only takes one small lapse of attention at the wrong time and glug... A friend of mine hung up and sank at Wardle, and I left the boat in reverse and nearly did the same, both of us with over twenty years experience. It's just that 99% of the time you get away with it, same as car driving errors.

Years ago I was riding my old 650 Triumph Thunderbird along a country lane, a lane I knew well, summer, shirt sleaves, no helmet, breezing along, approaching at high speed a very sharp left hand bend which I'd forgotten about. No chance of braking for it in time. luckily there was only a ditch between the road and a cabbage field, so I braced myself, kept straight on, jumped the ditch and crashed in amongst the cabbages, a cabbage amongst the cabbages.  No injury, bike had a bent clutch lever, rode it home taking a nice cabbage for mum.

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16 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

If it is mostly hirers, which I'm not sure of, then it comes down again to the wilfull ignorance of those who do something potentially dangerous without any research. People buy chainsaws in the same way.

But something like this can happen to the most careful of us. It only takes one small lapse of attention at the wrong time and glug... A friend of mine hung up and sank at Wardle, and I left the boat in reverse and nearly did the same, both of us with over twenty years experience. It's just that 99% of the time you get away with it, same as car driving errors.

On my first trip through a lock, mid eighties, I was steering with the owner on the back with me.  As the lock emptied I felt the tiller start to rise.  Although I had no practical experience of boating, I knew how a boat was built and what an empty lock looked like.  I realised what was happening and whacked it into full forward. Fortunately the boat slid off the cill as it was only caught by the rudder but it all happened pretty quickly and the boat could easily have been caught.

 The boat owner, who had some experience, admitted he hadn’t been aware of the danger.

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7 minutes ago, dor said:

On my first trip through a lock, mid eighties, I was steering with the owner on the back with me.  As the lock emptied I felt the tiller start to rise.  Although I had no practical experience of boating, I knew how a boat was built and what an empty lock looked like.  I realised what was happening and whacked it into full forward. Fortunately the boat slid off the cill as it was only caught by the rudder but it all happened pretty quickly and the boat could easily have been caught.

 The boat owner, who had some experience, admitted he hadn’t been aware of the danger.

Mid eighties!!!! I thought you were a lot younger than that. :)

3 minutes ago, sirweste said:

 

Presently biding my time for the right sprung hub one of them to come up for sale

Mine was an ex Met Police bike I bought for £40 at an auction.

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2 hours ago, bizzard said:

I think they're daft. Since they've been applied there seems to have been far more boats getting cilled. I think because of them, going down many folk risk keeping back close to the markers as possible to prevent bumping bottom gates or something, whereas before the markers folk new the cills there but didn't always know the extent they stuck out, therefore kept well forward just in case.          You would need a boat about 2ft long to keep forward of the cill marker.

  Not to mention folk playing smart phones at the locks when they should have been paying attention to their boats going up or down.

 

  Here is the letter K I left out of new. :closedeyes:

As far as I can see, most of the cill markers are pretty conservative.

2 hours ago, BWM said:

It can't be beyond the hire firms to install an alarm, triggered by a directional tilt switch. As much as craft roll side to side, in normal use they would not pitch forward or aft. Fitted with a similar mute button as found on vehicles with parking sensors in the event of running aground, i doubt there would be too many false alarms. 

From most of the reports I have read about such incidents is that the sinking relates to a failure to react properly or quickly. Too often - understandably - people are like rabbits in headlights and there is only a short time available to stop a disaster once it becomes detectable.

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When is it time to bring up the fact that several lock designs mean you can't remove and drop the pawl off the gear. Some times there's a bolt installed ot prevent it, other times it's due to the gate design having a horizontal bar in the way; preventing the pawl being lifted fully up and over.

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

Mine was an ex Met Police bike I bought for £40 at an auction.

 

there's an ex-police, complete with some sort of radio / telephone mounted on the tank, for sale on ebay for ~£10k

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3 minutes ago, sirweste said:

When is it time to bring up the fact that several lock designs mean you can't remove and drop the pawl off the gear. Some times there's a bolt installed ot prevent it, other times it's due to the gate design having a horizontal bar in the way; preventing the pawl being lifted fully up and over.

 

there's an ex-police, complete with some sort of radio / telephone mounted on the tank, for sale on ebay for ~£10k

Mine had the old plinth that the radio sat on on the rear mudquard.

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Did this article refer to the Botterham sinking? 
 

I pointed out at the time it appeared not to be a conventional cilling and involved water leaking out of the bottom of the pair of staircase locks resulting in them making a joint level lower than normal and the level continuing to drop as the boat transited between the chambers leading to it cilling and sinking.

 

I haven’t seen any reports confirming the cause but it did appear that an undetected slightly raised lower paddle may have been the cause.

 

Even so that isn’t CRTs fault or indeed something that could generally directly lead to a sinking.

 

JP

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57 minutes ago, sirweste said:

When is it time to bring up the fact that several lock designs mean you can't remove and drop the pawl off the gear. Some times there's a bolt installed ot prevent it, other times it's due to the gate design having a horizontal bar in the way; preventing the pawl being lifted fully up and over.

By some rather twisted logic they claim this to be a deliberate safety feature, because it ensures that the pawl will be in place for the next user. This of course ignores the highly unsafe consequence that you cannot lower the paddle by using just one hand.

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1 hour ago, bizzard said:

Mine had the old plinth that the radio sat on on the rear mudquard.

Still on solid tyres too?   q or g?

 

 

 

 

I think often of why the steerer never seems to use the horn in an emergency to attract the attention of the lock crew.

Edited by Tracy D'arth
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