Steel Lock Gates?

[Captain Pegg]

Just now, Phoenix_V said:

Gates are always steel in France they seem to last forever, even canals closed many years ago have seemingly sound gates on locks. Often they are galvanised I believe. Interestingly though in Belgium (Flanders at least ) even quite large gates  and all smaller ones are timber. I don't know how that works though on the one closed canal we did look at there are no signs of the gates surviving. IMHO nothing wrong with steel gates but regional variation in paddle gear is a far more important issue and we need to retain trad gear.

There is also the unsustainability of continuing to use tropical hardwood for the gates, the newer ones seem to last less long so the quality of the wood may be going down too.

I’d be surprised if they were galvanised due to the size of them.

 

Quality of supply of large sections of structural hardwood is an issue, many of the traditional sources are not FSC certified. Whether this affects lock construction I am not sure as I didn’t think in the UK it needed exotic timber.

 

JP

[monkeyhanger]

I find it interesting that replacement wooden gates are sometimes (always?) installed without a lick of paint on them. I could accept that the gates themselves  might require a soaking to allow the wood to swell and become watertight, but I would have thought it important to give the balance beams a coat of something to prevent them from the elements. Quite a number have failed recently due to rot in the balance beams. Is there a technical reason for allowing the wood to weather, I wonder?

[Captain Pegg]

2 minutes ago, monkeyhanger said:

I find it interesting that replacement wooden gates are sometimes (always?) installed without a lick of paint on them. I could accept that the gates themselves  might require a soaking to allow the wood to swell and become watertight, but I would have thought it important to give the balance beams a coat of something to prevent them from the elements. Quite a number have failed recently due to rot in the balance beams. Is there a technical reason for allowing the wood to weather, I wonder?

Hardwood doesn’t need protecting from the elements. It’s common to find untreated hardwood in construction. I presume the origin of the practice of painting the ends of balance beams and other fittings white was to make them more visible in hours of darkness. I think in some cases volunteer groups paint new gates post-installation.

[magpie patrick]

9 hours ago, Tam & Di said:

I'm not sure why that is important, but you can click on his name to get some idea of his interests. He's been boating longer than most people on this forum, both in the UK and on the continent, and written books about it - I think "Journeys of the Swan" was probably the first https://www.amazon.co.uk/Journeys-Swan-John-Liley/dp/0043860052

 

Most recently he has contributed several photos to the "Tonic Required" thread here.

 

Tam

I had wondered if it was THAT John Liley! I am honoured to be in such company - this guy was pushing the boundaries of boating when I was still drinking school milk

[Dav and Pen]

I live in the Daventry district area and the so called conservation officer has an agenda all her own. A friend with a thatched roof on his house was refused permission to re thatch with reed and was told to use long straw. For 2 year there was none available and the roof leaked.. Eventually the thatcher got some from Poland. 
I spent many years in Belgium with my barge and can’t remember ever seeing a wooden gate.

[Phoenix_V]

A little bit of research here, CRT claim to use oak (sustainably sourced) and it lasts 25 years, they spend £2million/year on gates so not so much in the grand scheme of things,  https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/specialist-teams/engineering/building-lock-gates

 

But these people refer to greenheart and other tropical woods which is what I always thought was used I am sure oak won't last as long perhaps it is cheaper

http://www.canallockgates.co.uk/sourcingtimber.asp

 

These people make composite gates

https://mbact.org.uk/gates.php

 

These offer a choice of steel or plastic http://www.ecsengineeringservices.com/lock-gates/#1491561877626-ab3b7de3-4005

 

Maybe plastic is the future I was suprised how many options are out there

 

 

[Phoenix_V]

15 minutes ago, Dav and Pen said:

I live in the Daventry district area and the so called conservation officer has an agenda all her own. A friend with a thatched roof on his house was refused permission to re thatch with reed and was told to use long straw. For 2 year there was none available and the roof leaked.. Eventually the thatcher got some from Poland. 
I spent many years in Belgium with my barge and can’t remember ever seeing a wooden gate.

Planners live in a little world of their own I am sure a steel gate with an oak veneer would pass muster with any of them.

As for Belgium I have never seen a steel gate on a smaller lock in Flanders

Or at least if this is steel it is well camouflaged

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by Phoenix_V

[Keeping Up]

One other potential problem is that they sometimes build steel gates with little or no regard for their usability in practice. For example where top gates are built with a flush surface on the outward side and a series of horizontal bracing struts on the inward side "because it looks better" when in practice it is a serious hazard to upwards traffic because the front fender catches on the struts as the boat rises. Advice to keep back away from the gate is futile, and the retrospective fitting of a narrow vertical rubbing plate on the inside is ineffective when (as usual) the plate is too narrow and also starts too high up.

[magpie patrick]

8 minutes ago, Phoenix_V said:

 

 

Oooo - yet another thing on my list of "must see's" - where is that please?

[Philip]

There is a steel gate at Quoisley lock on the Llangollen dating from 1963.

 

Wooden gates fitted prior to the 1960s often lasted 40-50 years, why only 25 years now?

[Phoenix_V]

13 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Oooo - yet another thing on my list of "must see's" - where is that please?

It is one of the 2 locks on the canal to Ypres (or Ieper) in Flanders Belgium. It is possible in a rather hurried week to visit Brugge with it's multiple lift and swing bridges as well (hire boats from LeBoat)

https://www.visuris.be/default.aspx?path=Recreatie/Toervaart/Vaarlussen

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by Phoenix_V

[Dav and Pen]

The method of using locks on the continent is very different to the bash bang and using engines we see here. Nobody has fenders on the bows or stern although the commercials have great big anchors sticking out. Ropes are always used .

The steel gates usually have a rubber edge for closing tight and against the wall, these are easily replaceable when necessary .As mentioned previously steel gates need a flat plate welded on the inside to avoid catching the bows under the cross beams.

I have travelled the canal from Gent to Calais but never went up the side canals. The only 38m I have used are on the Sambre all the other Flanders locks were  larger  for the Kempenar size barges.

Belgian “small” lock on the Sambre

Edited October 4, 2020 by Dav and Pen
Content

[Tracy D'arth]

Gates must have bracing facing out of the lock no matter what materials are used. Same with the nuts on coach bolts.

They could use lambeams for gate beams, no value to the beam chainsaw vandals.

I am amazed that the current  wooden gates are not steel clad on the inside instead of all the leaky boarding. It  would make them sturdier and water resistant.

[dmr]

4 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Dont be daft Dave. We all know that within ten years of now we will all have binned our diesel engines for the fantastic cheap to buy with a bank of cheap batteries electric motors. A complete network of charging points will have been built at thousands of spots around the country that just like water points now no one will ever take this piss by mooring on when not being used for their original intention.. Also the sun has given notice that it now intends to shine brightly every day for ever over the UK and not shut down for six months of the year, you only have to look at the vast amount we have had over the last three days to understand we can run all electric appliances and propel the boat for several hours every day with only a couple of solar panels.

I'm getting on top of this, planning to create an offside mooring in a remote location with a solar farm and charging point. I will have a total monopoly and be able to extort huge sums of money from passing boats.

 

..............Dave

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, Phoenix_V said:

A little bit of research here, CRT claim to use oak (sustainably sourced) and it lasts 25 years, they spend £2million/year on gates so not so much in the grand scheme of things,  https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/specialist-teams/engineering/building-lock-gates

 

But these people refer to greenheart and other tropical woods which is what I always thought was used I am sure oak won't last as long perhaps it is cheaper

http://www.canallockgates.co.uk/sourcingtimber.asp

 

These people make composite gates

https://mbact.org.uk/gates.php

 

These offer a choice of steel or plastic http://www.ecsengineeringservices.com/lock-gates/#1491561877626-ab3b7de3-4005

 

Maybe plastic is the future I was suprised how many options are out there

 

 

That reminds me that unrest in west Africa has disrupted supply of Greenheart in recent years.

I too believe CRT use oak and that probably explains why modern gates don’t last as long, if indeed that is the case. I also thought that CRT manufacture all the gates for the renewal programme at their own workshops, one of the issues being that every gate is unique.
 

It doesn’t follow that using oak is less cost effective than tropical hardwood as it will be cheaper to source. Tropical hardwoods are used in engineering for their strength properties more so than their longevity.

 

JP

Edited October 4, 2020 by Captain Pegg

[Phoenix_V]

27 minutes ago, Dav and Pen said:

The method of using locks on the continent is very different to the bash bang and using engines we see here. Nobody has fenders on the bows or stern although the commercials have great big anchors sticking out. Ropes are always used .

The steel gates usually have a rubber edge for closing tight and against the wall, these are easily replaceable when necessary .As mentioned previously steel gates need a flat plate welded on the inside to avoid catching the bows under the cross beams.

I have travelled the canal from Gent to Calais but never went up the side canals. The only 38m I have used are on the Sambre all the other Flanders locks were  larger  for the Kempenar size barges.

Belgian “small” lock on the Sambre

Yes the Sambre wallonian Belgium so they use wood there too. Very much ran as an historic tourist waterway hence the manual paddle gear and lock keepers (one of whom appears to be rather young). As soon as you arrive in France changes automated locks and steel gates. As far as I remember the gates in Dammenpoort sluis (which is certainly quite large though not so deep) and Veurne are all timber and they appear to be replacing one of the timber gates at the lock complex in Nieuwpoort with new timber at the moment.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Phoenix_V

[TheBiscuits]

52 minutes ago, dmr said:

I'm getting on top of this, planning to create an offside mooring in a remote location with a solar farm and charging point. I will have a total monopoly and be able to extort huge sums of money from passing boats.

 

..............Dave

 

It's the Rochdale Dave.  Passing boats are a rarity, so you'd make more by charging tolls to the wolves!

[Jerra]

1 hour ago, Philip said:

There is a steel gate at Quoisley lock on the Llangollen dating from 1963.

 

Wooden gates fitted prior to the 1960s often lasted 40-50 years, why only 25 years now?

Assuming both were made of the same material one possible reason could be supply.    I suspect there were more large aged Oaks around so that the centre of the tree was very dense.  Oaks of the required girth are probably much harder to come by these days.

 

Just a thought I am probably wrong.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

I too believe CRT use oak and that probably explains why modern gates don’t last as long, if indeed that is the case.

The gates built at Callis Mill during the 90s for the Rochdale Canal restoration were built of a dense close grained hardwood and still look almost brand new. By contrast the BW gates built around 2000 are now looking quite 'craggy'.

[Pluto]

One of the problems with steel gates is their extreme stiffness compared to wooden gates, which can flex fairly easily. This flexing can be important on older lock structures, where relatively poor foundations have allowed the sides of locks to move relative to the opposite side. This is especially so in mining areas where there has been significant subsidence, and can make balancing a gate and creating a good seal more difficult with steel gates, while wooden gates flex to create a seal. The choice between steel and wood gates is easier on the continent as many of their locks were built more recently, as well as their civil engineering sometimes being in advance of ours. For example, concrete foundations were being tested on French lock construction before the end of the 18th century, as discussed in Holzer's 2016 paper in Construction History, 'Canal locks and concrete'. In the early 1960s, BW engineers did extensive research into the use of steel for lock gates, as well as cheaper methods of building wooden lock gates. The benefits of steel seem to have been less than those of wood, particularly as English locks are tend to be non-standard even on the same canal, with the taper and height varying from lock to lock. Regarding the quality of wood for lock gates, George Sturt makes some interesting comments on the quality of wood required for specific uses in his book 'The Wheelright's Shop'.

[Detling]

Wooden balance beams are much nicer to handle, the steel ones on the GU can barely be touched, on the white paint on a sunny summer day, touch the black and it burns.

[Rose Narrowboats]

1 hour ago, Pluto said:

In the early 1960s, BW engineers did extensive research into the use of steel for lock gates, as well as cheaper methods of building wooden lock gates. The benefits of steel seem to have been less than those of wood, particularly as English locks are tend to be non-standard even on the same canal, with the taper and height varying from lock to lock. Regarding the quality of wood for lock gates, George Sturt makes some interesting comments on the quality of wood required for specific uses in his book 'The Wheelright's Shop'.

Hence my comment about when they fall out of favour again We've been here before, but you seemingly can't stop people trying to re-invent the wheel.

 

I do wonder if this is more to do with capacity than cost? It would be awfully embarrassing just as Bulbourne is redeveloped to have to admit that they shouldn't have closed Bulbourne and Bradley workshops......

Edited October 4, 2020 by Rose Narrowboats

[Richard Fairhurst]

16 minutes ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

I do wonder if this is more to do with capacity than cost? It would be awfully embarrassing just as Bulbourne is redeveloped to have to admit that they shouldn't have closed Bulbourne and Bradley workshops......

Has Bradley closed?

[dmr]

3 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

It's the Rochdale Dave.  Passing boats are a rarity, so you'd make more by charging tolls to the wolves!

The Rochdale is going to get very busy soon, after Covid lots of people are looking to leave the cities so all those boaters in London will suddenly get a huge desire to move so surely they will head to the North?  Just wait and see, in two years time Todmorden open market will be just like Camden. ?

 

.............Dave

[matty40s]

37 minutes ago, Richard Fairhurst said:

Has Bradley closed?

Not as far as I am aware.