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peterboat

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3 hours ago, Loddon said:

In your free charging world maybe not.

We are talking public chargers not at home charging

 

The RAC said the average cost per mile for someone limited only to rapid and ultra-rapid public chargers that are typically used at motorway services had risen to 18p, compared with 19p for petrol cars and 21p for diesel.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/26/cost-electric-car-charging-point-uk-public-charger-by-42-percent-invasion-ukraine

 

They can say what they want the reality is something different. We needed a rapid charge 48p a kwh from a BP rapid, we get 5 miles kwh do the sums screenshot to prove cost

Screenshot_20220926-222114_bp pulse.jpg

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10 hours ago, peterboat said:

They can say what they want the reality is something different. We needed a rapid charge 48p a kwh from a BP rapid, we get 5 miles kwh do the sums screenshot to prove cost

Screenshot_20220926-222114_bp pulse.jpg

You do know that all the rapid charger suppliers have recently announced big price rises (e.g. +50%), don't you? The quoted figures were after these rises which is what people will be paying in future, your figures were before the rises took effect...

 

https://www.smarttransport.org.uk/news/latest-news/rise-in-energy-prices-hits-those-who-use-rapid-chargers-the-most

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/osprey-increases-prices-to-1-per-kwh-for-ev-charging-amid-soaring-energy-costs/

Edited by IanD
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A couple of things are for certain. The capacity in batteries just isn't there at the moment therefore the range is abysmal. The infrastructure isn't there to warrant the, massive, extra cost of electric power compared to convential propulsion means. The, massive, extra cost of purchasing an electric vehicle, be it a car or a boat, is absolutely prohibitive unless you have a load of disposable money. You will never convince the electric enthusiasts of any of the arguments. It would be HUGELY unlikely that any of them would say that they were wrong, a bit like the compost bog arguments. Eventually we will all go electric because that is what various governments want. Eventually either the infrastructure will be there along with the efficiency of electric vehicles or some other technology will have taken over, which is what I think will happen. I'm sticking with petrol for the time being and it is highly unlikely that I will change my mind before I peg it. I do not have a boat any more and I'm not likely to have another one so, for me, electric or diesel boat is a moot point. But as for cars I will not have an EV or a hybrid until I am forced to. My daughter's partner, who is disabled, has had to have an MG EV as mobility only supplies EVs now apparently. this MG is claimed to be one of the best for mileage on a full charge. That claim is 300 miles. This is a manufacturer's claim and in actuallity it will be significantly less.

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11 hours ago, IanD said:

I doubt that you'd get a new series hybrid 60' narrowboat today for much less than £200k fully fitted after recent price rises without cutting a lot of corners, and it's certainly possible to pay half that much again...

As you say all dependent on spec, if @jpcdriver could let us know boat builder and  age we may get a more accurate figure to what’s out there with regards to pricing, with the rapid rise in steel and material prices, if his boat is even a year old his pricing is irrelevant to today’s costs. 

Edited by PD1964
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2 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

As you say all dependent on spec, if @jpcdriver could let us know boat builder and  age we may get a more accurate figure to what’s out there with regards to pricing, but as you say with  the rapid rise in steel and material prices, if his boat is even a year old his pricing is irrelevant to today’s costs. 

The build started July 2021 and was launched April this year. Built by Pintail Boats. We did have some big steel price increases incorporated in May 2021 but I'm sure steel and other costs will have gone up again since then.

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5 minutes ago, jpcdriver said:

The build started July 2021 and was launched April this year. Built by Pintail Boats. We did have some big steel price increases incorporated in May 2021 but I'm sure steel and other costs will have gone up again since then.

Indeed - this includes some of the same time period as your build, but between initial cost estimates in 2021 and delivery in 2023 I estimate the cost of my boat will have gone up by getting on for £50k... 😞

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

You do know that all the rapid charger suppliers have recently announced big price rises (e.g. +50%), don't you? The quoted figures were after these rises which is what people will be paying in future, your figures were before the rises took effect...

 

https://www.smarttransport.org.uk/news/latest-news/rise-in-energy-prices-hits-those-who-use-rapid-chargers-the-most

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/osprey-increases-prices-to-1-per-kwh-for-ev-charging-amid-soaring-energy-costs/

Look at the date I charged, I am way ahead of you in this respect as I have an EV, also that report has been withdrawn by the RAC. You can tell an Ospray charger by the absence of cars charging unless they have the bonnet app

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18 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Look at the date I charged, I am way ahead of you in this respect as I have an EV, also that report has been withdrawn by the RAC. You can tell an Ospray charger by the absence of cars charging unless they have the bonnet app

I know the date you charged, I can read -- but in spite of being way ahead of me, you obviously failed to read what I actually wrote, or do any research... 😉

 

The price rises for all the rapid charger suppliers -- including Osprey -- have been announced but many have not yet taken effect e.g. they come in at the end of this month.

 

Average cost for rapid chargers today is 64p/kWh, some (like Osprey) are higher but almost all are going up:

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/consumer/cost-public-ev-charging-rises-more-42-four-months

Edited by IanD
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1 hour ago, pete.i said:

A couple of things are for certain. The capacity in batteries just isn't there at the moment therefore the range is abysmal. The infrastructure isn't there to warrant the, massive, extra cost of electric power compared to convential propulsion means. The, massive, extra cost of purchasing an electric vehicle, be it a car or a boat, is absolutely prohibitive unless you have a load of disposable money. You will never convince the electric enthusiasts of any of the arguments. It would be HUGELY unlikely that any of them would say that they were wrong, a bit like the compost bog arguments. Eventually we will all go electric because that is what various governments want. Eventually either the infrastructure will be there along with the efficiency of electric vehicles or some other technology will have taken over, which is what I think will happen. I'm sticking with petrol for the time being and it is highly unlikely that I will change my mind before I peg it. I do not have a boat any more and I'm not likely to have another one so, for me, electric or diesel boat is a moot point. But as for cars I will not have an EV or a hybrid until I am forced to. My daughter's partner, who is disabled, has had to have an MG EV as mobility only supplies EVs now apparently. this MG is claimed to be one of the best for mileage on a full charge. That claim is 300 miles. This is a manufacturer's claim and in actuallity it will be significantly less.

I converted my boat for very little money, but I am an engineer and was happy to use secondhand and new components. 3 years plus on and it was the right decision, 

My car is an EV and again the right decision 

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

I know the date you charged, I can read -- but in spite of being way ahead of me, you obviously failed to read what I actually wrote, or do any research... 😉

 

The price rises for all the rapid charger suppliers -- including Osprey -- have been announced but many have not yet taken effect e.g. they come in at the end of this month.

 

Average cost for rapid chargers today is 64p/kWh, some (like Osprey) are higher but almost all are going up:

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/consumer/cost-public-ev-charging-rises-more-42-four-months

And again most long distance drivers are using special apps like bonnet to reduce those chargers, or the car makers app to reduce prices

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4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I converted my boat for very little money, but I am an engineer and was happy to use secondhand and new components. 3 years plus on and it was the right decision, 

My car is an EV and again the right decision 

And again most long distance drivers are using special apps like bonnet to reduce those chargers, or the car makers app to reduce prices

 

And yet still *all* the suppliers -- including subscription/bonnet ones -- are putting charges up because of the huge rise in wholesale electricity prices -- if you're ignoring this, your head must be very deep in the sand... 😉

 

Here's a list of the prices for all the suppliers from a couple of weeks ago, some have announced new price rises since then:

 

https://www.electrifying.com/blog/press/rapid-charger-pricewatch-how-much-will-you-pay-to-top-up

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On 25/09/2022 at 15:46, peterboat said:

No solar, which is a mistake, however 1 hour  genny running will give you 4 hours electric plus a tank full of hot water, that's where the savings are

 

Debatable with charging losses to lead acid batteries and voltage conversions.

 

LifePo batteries have a much higher charging efficiency.

 

The main benefit is near silent cruising.

 

The main dis-benefit is having to replace the batteries every few years (or more frequently if the owner doesn't look after them properly, which may well cost more than the fiel saved by not having a diesel propulsion engine.

Edited by cuthound
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3 hours ago, pete.i said:

A couple of things are for certain. The capacity in batteries just isn't there at the moment therefore the range is abysmal. The infrastructure isn't there to warrant the, massive, extra cost of electric power compared to convential propulsion means. The, massive, extra cost of purchasing an electric vehicle, be it a car or a boat, is absolutely prohibitive unless you have a load of disposable money. You will never convince the electric enthusiasts of any of the arguments. It would be HUGELY unlikely that any of them would say that they were wrong, a bit like the compost bog arguments. Eventually we will all go electric because that is what various governments want. Eventually either the infrastructure will be there along with the efficiency of electric vehicles or some other technology will have taken over, which is what I think will happen. I'm sticking with petrol for the time being and it is highly unlikely that I will change my mind before I peg it. I do not have a boat any more and I'm not likely to have another one so, for me, electric or diesel boat is a moot point. But as for cars I will not have an EV or a hybrid until I am forced to. My daughter's partner, who is disabled, has had to have an MG EV as mobility only supplies EVs now apparently. this MG is claimed to be one of the best for mileage on a full charge. That claim is 300 miles. This is a manufacturer's claim and in actuallity it will be significantly less.

 

 

I have 2 electric "day-boats" and I have given up serious cruising.  Mooring outside my back door on the Thames so charging is easy.

 

Regarding EV's as I am now retired and have little need for regular long journeys, doing perhaps 2k miles per year, there is no advantage to me getting an EV, either for myself or for the planet.  For high mileage drivers EV's should become the only practical and affordable solution.  I suggest that road tax should be abolished and petrol and diesel should attract huge tax increases.  Low mileage users would suffer little increase in overall running costs, while high mileage users (and the companies they work for when the companies are paying expenses) would have a real financial motivation to go EV.

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16 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

 

 

I have 2 electric "day-boats" and I have given up serious cruising.  Mooring outside my back door on the Thames so charging is easy.

 

Regarding EV's as I am now retired and have little need for regular long journeys, doing perhaps 2k miles per year, there is no advantage to me getting an EV, either for myself or for the planet.  For high mileage drivers EV's should become the only practical and affordable solution.  I suggest that road tax should be abolished and petrol and diesel should attract huge tax increases.  Low mileage users would suffer little increase in overall running costs, while high mileage users (and the companies they work for when the companies are paying expenses) would have a real financial motivation to go EV.

My car is a SZ Suzuki Alto. Brilliant car, road tax exempt, which means I can go into cities with the pollution charge in force, free. Over 70mpg. Cheap insurance. Top speed over 95mph. If the thousands of show off's that have no real need for huge petrol and diesel 4x4's and enormous erm prestige brutes got something efficient like the Suzuk,i Nissan Pixo ect there wouldn't really be much need for electric cars at all.

Edited by bizzard
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55 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Debatable with charging losses to lead acid batteries and voltage conversions.

 

LifePo batteries have a much higher charging efficiency.

 

The main benefit is near silent cruising.

 

The main dis-benefit is having to replace the batteries every few years (or more frequently if the owner doesn't look after them properly, which may well cost more than the fiel saved by not having a diesel propulsion engine.

 

That may well be true for LA batteries. For properly managed LFP batteries the lifetime should be more than 20 years assuming you continuously cruise for 8 hours a day 365 days a year, which is hardly a problem for even the world's most enthusiastic CCer -- and is probably much longer than diesel lifetime between rebuilds... 😉

 

Peter's numbers are -- as so often -- rather optimistic, depending on how you define "electric", and how much solar power is assumed -- he has 5kW of panels (which is impossible to fit on a narrowboat, 2kW is more realistic) so hardly needs to run his generator at all in summer.

Edited by IanD
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34 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

That may well be true for LA batteries. For properly managed LFP batteries the lifetime should be more than 20 years assuming you continuously cruise for 8 hours a day 365 days a year, which is hardly a problem for even the world's most enthusiastic CCer -- and is probably much longer than diesel lifetime between rebuilds... 😉

 

Peter's numbers are -- as so often -- rather optimistic, depending on how you define "electric", and how much solar power is assumed -- he has 5kW of panels (which is impossible to fit on a narrowboat, 2kW is more realistic) so hardly needs to run his generator at all in summer.

 

That is why I qualified my post in my first sentence to make it clear I was referring to lead acid batteries.

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1 hour ago, Murflynn said:

I suggest that road tax should be abolished and petrol and diesel should attract huge tax increases.  Low mileage users would suffer little increase in overall running costs, while high mileage users (and the companies they work for when the companies are paying expenses) would have a real financial motivation to go EV.

I was surprised when we changed our car last year, same size diesel engine but road tax only £30 a year, around 50p a week. so that is no incentive to go electric.

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1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

That is why I qualified my post in my first sentence to make it clear I was referring to lead acid batteries.

Understood, but that wasn't clear because you also mentioned LFP batteries in the next line.

 

2 hours ago, Murflynn said:

Regarding EV's as I am now retired and have little need for regular long journeys, doing perhaps 2k miles per year, there is no advantage to me getting an EV, either for myself or for the planet.  For high mileage drivers EV's should become the only practical and affordable solution.  I suggest that road tax should be abolished and petrol and diesel should attract huge tax increases.  Low mileage users would suffer little increase in overall running costs, while high mileage users (and the companies they work for when the companies are paying expenses) would have a real financial motivation to go EV.

 

That motivation is already there; the company I work for now offers nothing but EVs as company cars because there are already big financial advantages for both company and employee, as well as "green" ones.

 

For private buyers/lessees the financial advantages of EVs are less clear since the recent huge rise in electricity prices -- but the environmental advantage is still as big as ever.

Edited by IanD
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3 hours ago, IanD said:

That motivation is already there; the company I work for now offers nothing but EVs as company cars because there are already big financial advantages for both company and employee, as well as "green" ones.

Are there any tax/financial incentives being offered by the Govt. to persuade entice companies to change their company cars to EVs? Or anything electricity company’s are doing to encourage charging points, in regards to cheaper KwH rates?

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11 hours ago, IanD said:

 

And yet still *all* the suppliers -- including subscription/bonnet ones -- are putting charges up because of the huge rise in wholesale electricity prices -- if you're ignoring this, your head must be very deep in the sand... 😉

 

Here's a list of the prices for all the suppliers from a couple of weeks ago, some have announced new price rises since then:

 

https://www.electrifying.com/blog/press/rapid-charger-pricewatch-how-much-will-you-pay-to-top-up

So you can see the savings made on BP Pulse, 48 pence kwh using app against 65 pence a kwh using contactless. Guess what most EV drivers use?

We also use Tesco's podpoint Rapids at 28 pence kwh.

What it really means is that with sensibly charging you can save a fortune on charging out and about and be way cheaper charging at home 

Edited by peterboat
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9 hours ago, IanD said:

 

That may well be true for LA batteries. For properly managed LFP batteries the lifetime should be more than 20 years assuming you continuously cruise for 8 hours a day 365 days a year, which is hardly a problem for even the world's most enthusiastic CCer -- and is probably much longer than diesel lifetime between rebuilds... 😉

 

Peter's numbers are -- as so often -- rather optimistic, depending on how you define "electric", and how much solar power is assumed -- he has 5kW of panels (which is impossible to fit on a narrowboat, 2kW is more realistic) so hardly needs to run his generator at all in summer.

Not optimistic they are correct for my boat, yours will be correct for your boat once you have it and cruised to confirm them

10 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Debatable with charging losses to lead acid batteries and voltage conversions.

 

LifePo batteries have a much higher charging efficiency.

 

The main benefit is near silent cruising.

 

The main dis-benefit is having to replace the batteries every few years (or more frequently if the owner doesn't look after them properly, which may well cost more than the fiel saved by not having a diesel propulsion engine.

Correct but why would anyone build an electric boat and not fit lithium batteries? It makes no sense in this day and age

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Not optimistic they are correct for my boat, yours will be correct for your boat once you have it and cruised to confirm them

Correct but why would anyone build an electric boat and not fit lithium batteries? It makes no sense in this day and age

They're correct for your boat, which is a wideboat with 5kWp of solar, which is not what most people have. So saying how great this is for you doesn't help most people.

 

Yes I agree that LFP are the right solution today 🙂

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12 minutes ago, IanD said:

They're correct for your boat, which is a wideboat with 5kWp of solar, which is not what most people have. So saying how great this is for you doesn't help most people.

 

Yes I agree that LFP are the right solution today 🙂

Widebeam boat owners might want to know how suitable their boats are for electric Ian? 

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16 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Widebeam boat owners might want to know how suitable their boats are for electric Ian? 

Indeed, but you (and they) are very much in the minority, and you always fail to mention this when you're eulogising about how fantastic a hybrid/electric boat is.

 

You do exactly the same about EVs, they work brilliantly for you but your use and mileage and charging are not typical...

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8 hours ago, IanD said:

Indeed, but you (and they) are very much in the minority, and you always fail to mention this when you're eulogising about how fantastic a hybrid/electric boat is.

 

You do exactly the same about EVs, they work brilliantly for you but your use and mileage and charging are not typical...

How do you know? You own neither I own both my charging is typical of EV owners and a widebeam is the ideal for electric plenty of room for fitting everything including the panels. The only other electric boats I know are widebeams, I don't know anyone with an electric narrowboat. 

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2 hours ago, peterboat said:

How do you know? You own neither I own both my charging is typical of EV owners and a widebeam is the ideal for electric plenty of room for fitting everything including the panels. The only other electric boats I know are widebeams, I don't know anyone with an electric narrowboat. 

Your EV use is typical of *you* -- as you've said before, you have a small relatively short-range EV with a range extender, and you have enough free time to slow-charge (also free!) while shopping, and you don't make long journeys, and you can charge at home, and never use rapid chargers. But very few EV owners fall into all these categories, which is why an EV is so good for you but rather less good for many other people.

 

Widebeams are indeed ideal for many things if you want lots of space and are on a suitable canal. But yet again you're in the minority, most boats on the canals are narrowboats, and electric is less attractive for them. Most hybrid boats are narrow beam, going by all the blogs from owners and builders -- just because *you* don't know any doesn't prove anything, maybe because you're on a wide canal where most of the boats are wide too? (you and your mates again...)

 

I don't need to own either an EV or a wideboat (or indeed any boat...) to be able to see that your situation is nowhere near "normal" -- meaning, that of most people. So every time you eulogise about how great EV/EB are *for you* without admitting that your experience is not typical and wouldn't apply to many people, I point it out for you. If you don't like this, try making your posts more accurate and less misleading.

 

If the ASA had control over your posts, they'd be repeatedly rapping you on the knuckles for misleading EV/EB advertising 😉

Edited by IanD
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