Electric Boats

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As I have shown earlier in the screen shots of the Governments documents, there is already a 'transition time' allowed.

 

From 2025 all new boats built must be capable of being modified to emission free 'engines'

From 2025 2035 all new boats built must be utilising emission free 'engines'

From 2050 all boats in UK waters must be emission free - any not, will be 'banned'.

I think that the dates will change in line with cars, I fully expect 2030 to be the cutoff for ICE in cars and boats. 

[Tractor]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

They are coming - already Canada is building a fleet of Electric powered aircraft on domestic routes,

 

Piloted by Harbour Air CEO and founder Greg McDougall, the electric seaplane involved a six-passenger DHC-2 de Havilland Beaver with a 750-horsepower magni500 propulsion system. The Australian engineering firm MagniX responsible for the engine launched it at the Paris Air Show, and stated that the propulsion system aims to provide a clean and efficient way to power planes. 

HarbourAir aims to create an entire fleet by 2022, once all the safety and regulatory approvals are secured. The ePlanes have to be tested to confirm the reliability and safety and require certifications by regulators. 

As per a statement by transport minister Marc Garneau, this could set a new trend for more environment flying. According to MagniX CEO Roei Ganzarski, if short-haul flights are powered by battery, it could transform the way people commute. However, at present, the aircraft can fly about 160 km on lithium battery power. He further adds that though it’s not sufficient, it’s enough to start a revolution.

 

 

 

Now Rolls Royce is producing a world beating 'fastest electric plane'.

 

Rolls-Royce has completed testing of the ground-breaking technology that will power the world’s fastest all-electric plane. All the technology has been tested on a full-scale replica of the plane’s core, called an ‘ionBird’, including a 500hp electric powertrain powerful enough to set world speed records and a battery with enough energy to supply 250 homes.

The plane is part of a Rolls-Royce initiative called ACCEL, short for ‘Accelerating the Electrification of Flight’. Our ACCEL project team includes key partners YASA, the electric motor and controller manufacturer, and aviation start-up Electroflight. The team has been developing the technology while adhering to the UK Government’s social distancing and other health guidelines and the systems will soon be integrated into our ‘Spirit of Innovation’ plane. There is a long history of iron-birds in aviation for testing propulsion systems ahead of flight, but in this case we have named the test airframe ‘ionBird’, after the zero-emission energy source propelling the aircraft.

UK Business and Industry Minister Nadhim Zahawi said: “From trains to planes, our transport of the future will be powered by clean, electric sources - with companies like Rolls-Royce developing the tech to help meet our net zero ambitions. The completion of ground-testing for the government-backed ACCEL project is not only a step towards an exciting world record attempt, but a leap towards developing all-electric and hybrid-electric planes that one day could ferry large numbers of passengers around the world.”

The US is awash with firms competing for funding for this stuff, based upon flimsy evidence, and marketing hype, for duration, safety, and speed. I will wait a long time before I get to 38 thousand feet, in a hydrogen powered bomb, as will my pension.

[Phoenix_V]

https://www.french-waterways.com/electric-hire-boat/

 

The 3-cabin SIXTO Green is a brand new electric powered boat joining the Nicols fleet for 2018. Non-polluting and with a silent motor, feel at one with nature amidst the lush French countryside.

Launching from their bases in Alsace, what a serene and mindful way to have a waterways holiday. The joy of hire boating is that you can jump aboard, be shown around and then off you go. And now you can do it with the peace of mind of zero emissions and an overall reduce carbon footprint for your holiday in France.

The Sixto Green

Nicols’ newest hire boat can sleep up to 8 guests. There are three cabins sleeping 6 guests then the extra bed spaces come thanks to the convertible double bed in the living room. This makes the boat ideal for crews of three couples or two couples and two, or more, children.

Outside there are two deck areas for relaxing as well as a second steering position. The addition of the second steering position is such a treat for whomever pilots the boat . On the most gorgeous of day, they don’t miss out on the best of the weather nor scenery. Then off the back there is a sun awning over tables and chairs for sheltered al fresco dining.

Self drive hire boats are easy to steer and roomy enough for guests without taking up too much room on the waterways. The added extras on the Sixto Green enable you to take a dip via the swimming ladder and really enjoy river life then rinse off under the deck shower. This is more than just a boat – it’s home for a week or two.

The reality of an electric hire boat

Naturally, piloting an electrically charged boat requires some thinking about power levels and regular recharging. Nicols has thought this through too. In a unique partnership with the Voie navigables de France (VNF), together they have installed staggered charging terminals to support the cruisers. These charging points on the Saar and Marne-Rhine canals appear roughly every 11km.

In terms of planning recharging into your day, it takes just two hours of charging time to fully restore the battery charge.That’s plenty of time for lunch and a wander around your newest mooring spot.

[David Mack]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

They are coming - already Canada is building a fleet of Electric powered aircraft on domestic routes,

 

Piloted by Harbour Air CEO and founder Greg McDougall, the electric seaplane involved a six-passenger DHC-2 de Havilland Beaver with a 750-horsepower magni500 propulsion system. The Australian engineering firm MagniX responsible for the engine launched it at the Paris Air Show, and stated that the propulsion system aims to provide a clean and efficient way to power planes. 

HarbourAir aims to create an entire fleet by 2022, once all the safety and regulatory approvals are secured. The ePlanes have to be tested to confirm the reliability and safety and require certifications by regulators. 

As per a statement by transport minister Marc Garneau, this could set a new trend for more environment flying. According to MagniX CEO Roei Ganzarski, if short-haul flights are powered by battery, it could transform the way people commute. However, at present, the aircraft can fly about 160 km on lithium battery power. He further adds that though it’s not sufficient, it’s enough to start a revolution.

 

 

 

Now Rolls Royce is producing a world beating 'fastest electric plane'.

 

Rolls-Royce has completed testing of the ground-breaking technology that will power the world’s fastest all-electric plane. All the technology has been tested on a full-scale replica of the plane’s core, called an ‘ionBird’, including a 500hp electric powertrain powerful enough to set world speed records and a battery with enough energy to supply 250 homes.

The plane is part of a Rolls-Royce initiative called ACCEL, short for ‘Accelerating the Electrification of Flight’. Our ACCEL project team includes key partners YASA, the electric motor and controller manufacturer, and aviation start-up Electroflight. The team has been developing the technology while adhering to the UK Government’s social distancing and other health guidelines and the systems will soon be integrated into our ‘Spirit of Innovation’ plane. There is a long history of iron-birds in aviation for testing propulsion systems ahead of flight, but in this case we have named the test airframe ‘ionBird’, after the zero-emission energy source propelling the aircraft.

UK Business and Industry Minister Nadhim Zahawi said: “From trains to planes, our transport of the future will be powered by clean, electric sources - with companies like Rolls-Royce developing the tech to help meet our net zero ambitions. The completion of ground-testing for the government-backed ACCEL project is not only a step towards an exciting world record attempt, but a leap towards developing all-electric and hybrid-electric planes that one day could ferry large numbers of passengers around the world.”

 

And how long does it take to recharge the batteries between flights? The whole airline industry operating model relies on fast turnaround to maximise the utilisation of both aircraft and airport gate space. Currently refuelling is done in the time it takes to do all the other things between arrival and departure, but add in another (say) couple of hours charging and the economics may look very different. 

[dor]

18 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

And how long does it take to recharge the batteries between flights? The whole airline industry operating model relies on fast turnaround to maximise the utilisation of both aircraft and airport gate space. Currently refuelling is done in the time it takes to do all the other things between arrival and departure, but add in another (say) couple of hours charging and the economics may look very different. 

As aircraft already use a sort of container system for loading freight, catering etc., I would imagine they would use batteries in a similar format and swap them over during turnaround.

[ditchcrawler]

This just popped up on FB  

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/11/12/coast-guard-inspectors-told-take-good-look-lithium-ion-batteries-after-conception-dive-boat-fire.html?fbclid=IwAR1LCLc0NUoKvMwFO8Xn31uFf6jVxTCyhNR9a3Kr7zMw6dMqJEzgJgQuzG8

[Tractor]

For these changes to take place, the national grid network must be turned inside out.

Currently power stations and generators are working at the ‘thick end’ of the supply network, transmitting power to the outlying regions, copper getting thinner as it reaches the consumer; now this is being reversed as the generators range from solar installations in fields and on houses, to remote wind farms far out to sea and the tops of Welsh mountains. Transmission line potential of 800,000, 000 Volts is being planned is required and will be implemented as the surge for renewal systems progresses.

Down at street level, 400Volts 3 phase will be distributed, but to use this for battery charging the conversion to DC on board will be full of losses both harmonic and resistive. When electrical power is transformed and manipulated losses are incurred, the bit which is conveniently neglected in the proposals for this new life, losses which bring us back to parity.

Throughout the plan is possible, ‘we have the technology’, but the understanding of the complexity and costs, I believe is well beyond the policy makers capacity for understanding. The transition to Diesel, will be the most recent example. At the time ‘lean burn’ research for petrol propulsion with extremely low emissions was abandoned for the Diesel option, this was very recent history we all rember; and here the ‘knee jerk’, political box ticking is played out.

Yes, we need the poor unfortunates, but controlling their impulses with our cash, building bollards down the canal bank should be reserved for another day, a long way off.

 

[peterboat]

46 minutes ago, Tractor said:

For these changes to take place, the national grid network must be turned inside out.

Currently power stations and generators are working at the ‘thick end’ of the supply network, transmitting power to the outlying regions, copper getting thinner as it reaches the consumer; now this is being reversed as the generators range from solar installations in fields and on houses, to remote wind farms far out to sea and the tops of Welsh mountains. Transmission line potential of 800,000, 000 Volts is being planned is required and will be implemented as the surge for renewal systems progresses.

Down at street level, 400Volts 3 phase will be distributed, but to use this for battery charging the conversion to DC on board will be full of losses both harmonic and resistive. When electrical power is transformed and manipulated losses are incurred, the bit which is conveniently neglected in the proposals for this new life, losses which bring us back to parity.

Throughout the plan is possible, ‘we have the technology’, but the understanding of the complexity and costs, I believe is well beyond the policy makers capacity for understanding. The transition to Diesel, will be the most recent example. At the time ‘lean burn’ research for petrol propulsion with extremely low emissions was abandoned for the Diesel option, this was very recent history we all rember; and here the ‘knee jerk’, political box ticking is played out.

Yes, we need the poor unfortunates, but controlling their impulses with our cash, building bollards down the canal bank should be reserved for another day, a long way off.

 

Its happening already I have 2 electric boats 3 of my friends have electric boats and we are all using solar. 9 out of the next 10 boats leaving Finesse are electric, this is without any charging bollards. It can be done for our sort of cruising so which for me can be 10 hours on a dull day and unlimited if its sunny.  I know that my cruising pattern doesn't suit all but do you think that the government will care about us ?

[RufusR]

Agree with Peter , I am already living off grid on end of field mooring and generating 97 % of our electric via solar , don’t forgot with the incredible competition in the solar field having already massively brought down prices and driven up efficiency in last few years by the time we all need to have electric boats solar panels will be at 50 percent or more efficiency esp with bifacial etc so getting several kw on the roof of even a narrow boat will be possible , I have 1630 watts on a 60 foot narrowboat today with 2 top boxes and other furniture so it’s possible if designed properly . 

 

This will not be as hard as thought . 

 

pS all my hot water from April to Sept comes from solar as well . 

 

then there are fuel cells , I know one company close to launching a boat fuel cell 500watts each way expensive today but price will fall , their aim is to replace diesel gens in boats very soon . 

 

We must ween ourselves off polluting hydrocarbons or we will kill the planet I short order . 

 

 

 

[Tractor]

A few canal boats plying the waterways supporting a past heritage going 'Electric', it is a worthy exercise; but is this not 'naval gazing', when considering the need to reduce the real emissions from road transport, agriculture, and marine? It cannot be beyond the wit of man to introduce a small amount of perspective into this situation. For the population of the canal system to roll over and accept legislation, which will potentially remove these traditional ways, turning this heritage into a Disney theme park, cannot be acceptable, spotted red neckerchiefs and flat caps all round?

[IanD]

54 minutes ago, RufusR said:

Agree with Peter , I am already living off grid on end of field mooring and generating 97 % of our electric via solar , don’t forgot with the incredible competition in the solar field having already massively brought down prices and driven up efficiency in last few years by the time we all need to have electric boats solar panels will be at 50 percent or more efficiency esp with bifacial etc so getting several kw on the roof of even a narrow boat will be possible , I have 1630 watts on a 60 foot narrowboat today with 2 top boxes and other furniture so it’s possible if designed properly . 

 

This will not be as hard as thought . 

 

pS all my hot water from April to Sept comes from solar as well . 

 

then there are fuel cells , I know one company close to launching a boat fuel cell 500watts each way expensive today but price will fall , their aim is to replace diesel gens in boats very soon . 

 

We must ween ourselves off polluting hydrocarbons or we will kill the planet I short order . 

 

 

 

Low-cost monocrystalline silicon solar panels have a peak efficiency in the mid 20s of percent, and even the most advanced four-layer experimental panels in the labs are only up to about 47% and are *ludicrously* expensive due to the materials and manufacturing needed -- which is why they haven't made it outside the labs, it's far cheaper to use 2x the area of mono cells, and the solar cell market is completely driven by cost not squeezing the maximum power out of expensive small cells on boats. All the big solar cell advances nowadays are reducing cost, not greatly improving efficiency regardless of cost.

 

All bifacial panels do is re-absorb light that reflects back off the mounting surface, at best they can get a small efficiency gain -- which is often overstated, they pick a setup which is particularly favourable but not realistic. If they were so good all the solar farms would use them, and they don't.

 

There is no solution on the horizon for high-volume low-cost solar panels with efficiency significantly higher than we can buy now, go and read up on it (from reputable sources, not woo-woo-isn't-this-brilliant-pseudo-scientific junk mills) if you don't believe me. Cost however will keep on dropping, there's a long way to go with this.

Edited November 15, 2020 by IanD

[peterboat]

14 minutes ago, IanD said:

Low-cost monocrystalline silicon solar panels have a peak efficiency in the mid 20s of percent, and even the most advanced four-layer experimental panels in the labs are only up to about 47% and are *ludicrously* expensive due to the materials and manufacturing needed -- which is why they haven't made it outside the labs, it's far cheaper to use 2x the area of mono cells, and the solar cell market is completely driven by cost not squeezing the maximum power out of expensive small cells on boats. All the big solar cell advances nowadays are reducing cost, not greatly improving efficiency regardless of cost.

 

All bifacial panels do is re-absorb light that reflects back off the mounting surface, at best they can get a small efficiency gain -- which is often overstated, they pick a setup which is particularly favourable but not realistic. If they were so good all the solar farms would use them, and they don't.

 

There is no solution on the horizon for high-volume low-cost solar panels with efficiency significantly higher than we can buy now, go and read up on it (from reputable sources, not woo-woo-isn't-this-brilliant-pseudo-scientific junk mills) if you don't believe me. Cost however will keep on dropping, there's a long way to go with this.

They have been around since the 60s however its Perc Google it that has changed things its very recent and is a game changer on cost and efficiency. I expect as times go on they will become the norm reading the blurb 

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, peterboat said:

They have been around since the 60s however its Perc Google it that has changed things its very recent and is a game changer on cost and efficiency. I expect as times go on they will become the norm reading the blurb 

PERC panels are already in mass production, these are what I was referring to. Cost will continue to fall, but efficiency gains (in mass-produceable panels) have almost ground to a halt.

 

Which isn't a problem, lower cost is *way* more important to the worldwide solar power industry.

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

PERC panels are already in mass production, these are what I was referring to. Cost will continue to fall, but efficiency gains (in mass-produceable panels) have almost ground to a halt.

 

Which isn't a problem, lower cost is *way* more important to the worldwide solar power industry.

It is Ian, but efficient panels are better when it's your method of creating electric like I do 

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It is Ian, but efficient panels are better when it's your method of creating electric like I do 

Yes but somebody has to make them. If you could buy one (because there's no market...) a four-layer panel with twice the efficiency/output of a 350W PERC panel which costs just over £100 today would probably cost several thousand pounds, maybe tens of thousands (mono panels were over £1000 only 10 years ago). They're only being seriously proposed for things like solar concentrators where the panel cost is small compared to the huge cost of mirrors/lenses/towers/cooling system.

 

Nobody's going to tool up to manufacture something in volume which costs a lot more per kWh, and additionally uses exotic materials (rare earths) and expensive production processes which can't easily be scaled up like vapour deposition. Mono solar panels are very simple to make and use cheap raw materials, which is why everybody uses them. A double-efficiency panel would have to be not much more than 2x the price, and there's no prospect of this today (or any day soon) with any of the exotic panels in the labs.

 

It's possible this may change, but any breakthrough has to be efficient, mass-produceable from abundant materials, and cheap -- and none of them are so far.

Edited November 15, 2020 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

Its not just the UK going electric https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1193678-new-e-boats-to-start-plying-bangkok-canals-from-friday/?fbclid=IwAR1qVVh7IvsUFrvulhqs19jQJb4t-_ukpjQ_BPOtTaHHbv3WF5fg3hJUVkY

[mrsmelly]

10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Its not just the UK going electric https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1193678-new-e-boats-to-start-plying-bangkok-canals-from-friday/?fbclid=IwAR1qVVh7IvsUFrvulhqs19jQJb4t-_ukpjQ_BPOtTaHHbv3WF5fg3hJUVkY

There's a tad more sunshine in Bangkok than Milton Keynes lol. 

[ditchcrawler]

Not sure if this has been reported before, I think he did well standing up and saying he was wrong with his plan/dream http://nauticmag.com/2020/12/07/electric-shock-by-jimmy-cornell/?fbclid=IwAR28XLKse5AZltLgPuxKPVbdZBphLSzs912XdcGPoWCagxai5agiGl2ists

[David Mack]

15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Not sure if this has been reported before, I think he did well standing up and saying he was wrong with his plan/dream http://nauticmag.com/2020/12/07/electric-shock-by-jimmy-cornell/?fbclid=IwAR28XLKse5AZltLgPuxKPVbdZBphLSzs912XdcGPoWCagxai5agiGl2ists

Using wind to propel sailing boat which drags a propeller behind to generate electricity strikes me as a fairly inefficient way to use wind power. Is there no opportunity to augment it with solar?

[peterboat]

24 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Not sure if this has been reported before, I think he did well standing up and saying he was wrong with his plan/dream http://nauticmag.com/2020/12/07/electric-shock-by-jimmy-cornell/?fbclid=IwAR28XLKse5AZltLgPuxKPVbdZBphLSzs912XdcGPoWCagxai5agiGl2ists

Good article wonder how much solar he had? it sounds like they were relying on just the regen which was always going to be tight. the fitting of a genset is a good idea but a lot of solar would be essential as well

[IanD]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

Good article wonder how much solar he had? it sounds like they were relying on just the regen which was always going to be tight. the fitting of a genset is a good idea but a lot of solar would be essential as well

I wonder why he bothered with propeller regeneration at all, you'd have thought the average output from solar would be much more (assuming a reasonable pane area) than this provides -- and would probably be a lot cheaper, and wouldn't add drag to the boat.

 

Looks to me like the (small marine) wind turbine idea -- sounds great in theory, doesn't deliver anywhere near the data sheet benefits in real life.

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

I wonder why he bothered with propeller regeneration at all, you'd have thought the average output from solar would be much more (assuming a reasonable pane area) than this provides -- and would probably be a lot cheaper, and wouldn't add drag to the boat.

 

Looks to me like the (small marine) wind turbine idea -- sounds great in theory, doesn't deliver anywhere near the data sheet benefits in real life.

They had trial data and the engineer on board so you would have thought he believed in it? I cant see the roof on the boat but I would have had solar on all possible surfaces and a genset for backup.

I am at the moment on solar and it seems to be doing OK but have landline if I need it sunny days rule ok

[IanD]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

They had trial data and the engineer on board so you would have thought he believed in it? I cant see the roof on the boat but I would have had solar on all possible surfaces and a genset for backup.

I am at the moment on solar and it seems to be doing OK but have landline if I need it sunny days rule ok

The problem seems to be that they took the trial data in favourable conditions (for generating power) and didn't allow for the fact that on average conditions are nowhere near this favourable.

 

It's like installing solar panels based on their advertised power -- or even going out and measuring the power on a sunny summer day -- but not allowing for the fact that all days aren't like this and panels on canal boats are rarely optimally installed (not forgetting trees etc). Even in summer (and not shaded) the typical yield over a day is only roughly what you'd get with less than 4 hours of full-power sunlight, dropping to about less than 1 hour in the depths of winter.

 

Solar panels are great for onboard power generation, but you have to be realistic about how much power you'll actually get from them. On a narrowboat (or small yacht) with limited space, another power source is needed for when the sun don't shine -- and even on a wideboat like Peter's in winter.

 

Wind turbines on narrowboats and prop regen on sailing boats are both pretty useless compared to solar.

[ditchcrawler]

37 minutes ago, peterboat said:

They had trial data and the engineer on board so you would have thought he believed in it? I cant see the roof on the boat but I would have had solar on all possible surfaces and a genset for backup.

I am at the moment on solar and it seems to be doing OK but have landline if I need it sunny days rule ok

As he said he wanted to prove it could be done fossil free and a genset would have negated that. The makers wanted him to have one for emergency use. He tried and failed but had the guts to stand up and say so.

[Iain_S]

5 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Not sure if this has been reported before, I think he did well standing up and saying he was wrong with his plan/dream http://nauticmag.com/2020/12/07/electric-shock-by-jimmy-cornell/?fbclid=IwAR28XLKse5AZltLgPuxKPVbdZBphLSzs912XdcGPoWCagxai5agiGl2ists

He really needs a double sided solar panel that you can make sails from ...