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K&A problems


MrsM

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46 minutes ago, dmr said:

The Avon can be a nasty river and is getting busier and busier with liveaboards. Its really best not to leave a boat unattended but those who did would likely have been prepared for some changes in level, but nobody would anticipate a drop of 2 metres,.

 

...............Dave

It would certainly not be expected on a canal or many rivers but 3 weeks ago we had a storm surge when the remains of one of the USA storms came across the pond.

We went down by 4 rungs then up by 10 rungs on the wall ladder (1 foot gaps) in less than 12 hours & we were fighting to keep the boats from going over the top of the wall as it 'topped'.

By morning we were back down by 6 feet.

 

Fortunately we had long spring lines and were on board to keep adjusting the height of the fenders as the wall got 'lower and lower'.

 

Must be an awful time when a 'leak' happens and there is only 2 or 3 feet of water  to start with, throw in 'sloping', or U-shaped sides of the waterway and the boats end up on very strange angles.

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1 hour ago, MrsM said:

Whatever its proper name, a bit flipping sad for those who have had their boats sunk or damaged.

Indeed. However its an interesting side discussion for those with an interest in the history of our waterways.

 

It in no way detracts from the damage caused.

 

At least no lives were lost which is something.

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25 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Must be an awful time when a 'leak' happens and there is only 2 or 3 feet of water  to start with, throw in 'sloping', or U-shaped sides of the waterway and the boats end up on very strange angles.

 

Just wait until the owners get their boats back and find they have got a couple of feet of softwood hammered into exhausts and skin fittings.  It's the "approved" way of refloating them, and the water level is being held back until all visible holes have been bunged.

 

They deliberately use long pieces of wood so they are blindingly obvious, but I bet there are quite a few owners/renters that don't check their raw water intake or exhaust or shower drain is clear before trying to use it this week.

 

It's a sobering lesson though, especially as it doesn't appear to be the first time this sluice has failed!

 

I agree with @dmr that on a river you can expect quite a bit of level change, but 6 feet from full to dry in less than two hours is way outside what I would tie up for on there.  In a drying harbour, sure, but not on most inland waterways.

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25 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Indeed. However its an interesting side discussion for those with an interest in the history of our waterways.

 

It in no way detracts from the damage caused.

 

At least no lives were lost which is something.

But not irrelevant, if the waterway has "navigation" in its name then be prepared for more danger than one called a "canal". Trouble is most  boaters would expect some level rise after rain but just not expect a 2 metre drop, you expect some canal pounds to empty, but not a river, and most canals are only a couple of feet deep at the side.

 

We have moored on the Avon a few times and I have never given any real thought to something like this happening.

 

I expect there will be an investigation but why was an alarm not going off and somebody on standby to fix this? I suspect because now we totally trust automation and have nobody "on the ground" on 24 hour standby. If it was a software fault then there surely must be a manual over-ride button???? 

 

...........Dave

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4 minutes ago, dmr said:

I expect there will be an investigation but why was an alarm not going off and somebody on standby to fix this? I suspect because now we totally trust automation and have nobody "on the ground" on 24 hour standby. If it was a software fault then there surely must be a manual over-ride button???? 

 

The Russians hacked it ...

 

EA are reporting a "software fault" which can range from "system crash: fail safe" (Hah! Irony alert!) to "sensor out of range: resetting to default position."

 

There will have been an alert rather than an alarm, but it might be such a low level it only shows up in diagnostic logging.  There may well be a manual override, but it will be in the control box on the sluice, and there obviously won't be people there as the computer system means the staff aren't needed!

 

Yes, I have done extensive work with SCADA systems, and no, I'm not very bitter about it.  Why do you ask? ;)

 

I still think putting raw SCADA on the internet was stupid though - the "Russians hacking it" comment was only sarcastic about it being the Russians, not the lack of security in the system.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

The Russians hacked it ...

 

EA are reporting a "software fault" which can range from "system crash: fail safe" (Hah! Irony alert!) to "sensor out of range: resetting to default position."

 

There will have been an alert rather than an alarm, but it might be such a low level it only shows up in diagnostic logging.  There may well be a manual override, but it will be in the control box on the sluice, and there obviously won't be people there as the computer system means the staff aren't needed!

 

Yes, I have done extensive work with SCADA systems, and no, I'm not very bitter about it.  Why do you ask? ;)

 

I still think putting raw SCADA on the internet was stupid though - the "Russians hacking it" comment was only sarcastic about it being the Russians, not the lack of security in the system.

 

 

You are answering a point I have not raised, I don't blame you for this?

 

I would hope that there are several level sensors so the system should have spotted a major event, and it presumably gave a consistent trend over two hours.

 

Putting all this type of stuff on the internet is just daft, its not just the Russians, I expect a load of spotty schoolkids would love to play with this sort of infrastructure.

 

A separate topic for debate if we ever manage to meet for a beer, was this software created by computer scientists or engineers? As an engineer I have always believed that if I ever do something recklessly negligent then I take the blame and professional insurance wont save me???

 

.............Dave

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2 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

I wonder how many 'navigations' are susceptible to this type of serious failure?

 

Any of them that have computer controlled weirs / sluices / locks.  Seriously.

 

The saving grace for CRT is that many of their operational assets are listed, so they have to be replaced as manually operated structures.  There are many more problems or stoppages on the electrical / hydraulic infrastructure than there are on the old fashioned lumps of oak. 

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3 minutes ago, dmr said:

A separate topic for debate if we ever manage to meet for a beer, was this software created by computer scientists or engineers? As an engineer I have always believed that if I ever do something recklessly negligent then I take the blame and professional insurance wont save me???

 

My experience of SCADA is in critical national infrastructure - the gas pipelines as it happens.  Convincing serious chaps with appropriate moustaches that they should cede 40 years of experience to a couple of cheap transistors and a kid straight out of Uni wasn't really one of my strong points in meetings ...

 

It was pointed out to me quite early on in that project - by a serious chap with an appropriate moustache - that what we software guys considered to be "pump, gas, one of, asset 3" was actually a Rolls Royce jet engine running a huge compressor.  If it breaks, Bad ThingsTM happen in a real building with real people stood near it, and he knew where I worked if my code caused said Bad ThingsTM.

 

He was great though.  His main job was not-quite-to-destruction testing of said turbines, which was done by him running them above redline until he got a "feeling in his bones" that they were going unstable, then rating them at that level, and only allowing mere mortals (eg serious engineers with less moustache) to run them at 80% of that speed.  He famously punched the then chairman of National Grid who some minion once let into a control room and started asking asinine questions just as he was running a turbine up to critical imbalance. 

 

I believe the accompanying quote was something like "Get that f***er out of my f***ing control room or he's going to be fed into the intakes!"  Once the issue had calmed down, his boss tried to reprimand him, and the order came down from said punched chairman to keep him at all costs ... he'd just saved the company about £50 million with one punch, and the chairman appreciated that far more than he cared about the split lip!

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5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

My experience of SCADA is in critical national infrastructure - the gas pipelines as it happens.  Convincing serious chaps with appropriate moustaches that they should cede 40 years of experience to a couple of cheap transistors and a kid straight out of Uni wasn't really one of my strong points in meetings ...

 

It was pointed out to me quite early on in that project - by a serious chap with an appropriate moustache - that what we software guys considered to be "pump, gas, one of, asset 3" was actually a Rolls Royce jet engine running a huge compressor.  If it breaks, Bad ThingsTM happen in a real building with real people stood near it, and he knew where I worked if my code caused said Bad ThingsTM.

 

He was great though.  His main job was not-quite-to-destruction testing of said turbines, which was done by him running them above redline until he got a "feeling in his bones" that they were going unstable, then rating them at that level, and only allowing mere mortals (eg serious engineers with less moustache) to run them at 80% of that speed.  He famously punched the then chairman of National Grid who some minion once let into a control room and started asking asinine questions just as he was running a turbine up to critical imbalance. 

 

I believe the accompanying quote was something like "Get that f***er out of my f***ing control room or he's going to be fed into the intakes!"  Once the issue had calmed down, his boss tried to reprimand him, and the order came down from said punched chairman to keep him at all costs ... he'd just saved the company about £50 million with one punch, and the chairman appreciated that far more than he cared about the split lip!

Engineers then, computer scientists don't hit people ? (but engineers are much more fun)

 

.............Dave

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15 hours ago, dmr said:

I believe in general a canal is a man made waterway whilst a navigation is a river made navigable, but there are all sorts of exceptions to this "rule", the BCN is probably the most interesting ?

 

The St Helens canal was proposed as a navigation but built as a canal, but oddly called a canal????

 

..................Dave

It was originally called the Sankey Navigation, the change to a canal being under either the 1830 or 1864 Acts.

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3 hours ago, Pluto said:

It was originally called the Sankey Navigation, the change to a canal being under either the 1830 or 1864 Acts.

That makes sense/fits in with my understanding of the history, thanks.

 

...................Dave

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17 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Any of them that have computer controlled weirs / sluices / locks.  Seriously.

 

The saving grace for CRT is that many of their operational assets are listed, so they have to be replaced as manually operated structures.  There are many more problems or stoppages on the electrical / hydraulic infrastructure than there are on the old fashioned lumps of oak. 

If they are the ones that I think they are, the sluices are comparatively modern, and were installed as part of a system to prevent flooding in Bath. I doubt that they would ever qualify for listed status. Some years ago, when the river was in flood, the Environment Agency closed them to prevent flooding in Bath, Consequently the water backed up on the Avon causing flood havoc in Bradford on Avon and other upstream riverside communities

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17 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Any of them that have computer controlled weirs / sluices / locks.  Seriously.

 

The saving grace for CRT is that many of their operational assets are listed, so they have to be replaced as manually operated structures.  There are many more problems or stoppages on the electrical / hydraulic infrastructure than there are on the old fashioned lumps of oak. 

Not sure about this, I know of a few sluices that have got to end of life and been replaced with modern looking stainless steel affairs, plus some impressive concrete jobbies on the Rochdale.

 

..................Dave

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20 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

It's a sobering lesson though, especially as it doesn't appear to be the first time this sluice has failed!

 

I agree with @dmr that on a river you can expect quite a bit of level change, but 6 feet from full to dry in less than two hours is way outside what I would tie up for on there.  In a drying harbour, sure, but not on most inland waterways.

 

It can happen on canals too of course when kids get hold of a windlass and deliberately decide to empty a pound in the middle of the night. Happened to me about 20 years ago on the GU anyway. Fortunately I woke up at about 3am and realised something was happening and went outside to find all the boats starting to hang on their ropes and the level about 1 metre down, so I quickly went down to the lock below, closed it and then went to the lock above and put some water back into the pound taking care not to drain the pound above too much.

Edited by blackrose
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1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

It can happen on canals too of course when IDIOT BOATERS get hold of THEIR windlass and deliberately decide to empty a pound in the middle of the night BECAUSE THEY HAVE LEFT THE GATES OPEN BELOW THEM. Happened to me about 10 years ago on the GU . UNFORTUNATELY I woke up at about 3am AS I ROLLED OUT OF BED...and realised something was happening and went outside to find all the boats starting to hang on their ropes and the level about 1.5 metre down, so I quickly went down to the lock below, closed the completely open paddles and then went to the lock above AT COWROAST TOP and put some water back into the pound.

Sorry, it's not just kids.

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1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

It can happen on canals too of course when kids get hold of a windlass and deliberately decide to empty a pound in the middle of the night. Happened to me about 20 years ago on the GU anyway. Fortunately I woke up at about 3am and realised something was happening and went outside to find all the boats starting to hang on their ropes and the level about 1 metre down, so I quickly went down to the lock below, closed it and then went to the lock above and put some water back into the pound taking care not to drain the pound above too much.

I think I saw the film about that. Called "The Bargee" wasn't it?

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8 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Sorry, it's not just kids.

Yep boater blamed for this on the Huddersfield Broad canal yesterday. Not me by the way we reported it, and the crt guy worked us passed. He was all by himself took 4 hrs to get us passed the two drained pounds. 

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I was moored below Kentish town lock on the regents section a few years ago when someone drained the pound above. Very short pound. 3am it was an adult but I declined to interact and it was not negatively effecting my boat. Once he had gone and it was getting light I walked up and had a look and found rather a nice stillson which he had used to crank the paddles up.

I kept the tool for myself as it's best not to leave these things lying around.  

 

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