Disconnecting gas cooker

[TheBiscuits]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What about the first bit

https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/sailing-skills/crash-test-boat-gas-explosion-29779

 

says:

 

We asked the Marine Accident Investigation Board (MAIB) for details of recent cases where gas bottles were involved in explosions and fires on leisure craft. Steven Clinch, the Chief Inspector of Marine Accidents, gave us a dossier with 18 reported incidents ‘of interest’, most of them within the last 10 years. Many involve motorboats and canal boats, but they also include sailing boat incidents, one resulting in a known fatality. A huge percentage of gas leak ‘incidents’ are not reported unless they involve the emergency services.

 

But it doesn't give details.

[Chewbacka]

10 hours ago, WotEver said:

Not only are they permitted but they are mandated if using a flexible hose to connect a cooker. 7.9.1 reads (in part):

 

... pre‐made hose assemblies conforming to BS 669 may be used to connect cookers to LPG supply pipework. Such hoses usually have a red stripe running along the length of the hose but may not be marked with BS669.

The connections on such hoses must terminate with self-sealing bayonet connections at the connection points to the LPG supply pipework. The portable appliance connection checks at 7.10 also apply.

I think you have mis read the bss.

You are correct that if you choose to use a “pre-made hose assemblies conforming to BS 669” then a bayonet connection must be used, however section 7.9.5 goes on to state that pre-made assemblies are optional and you may  “......use suitable nozzles secured by crimped or worm‐drive clips; and,”.  There then follows requirements about clip style, size etc.

 

Therefore bayonet fittings are not required in all cases.

 

At least that is how I read it.

[WotEver]

8 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

I think you have mis read the bss.

You are correct that if you choose to use a “pre-made hose assemblies conforming to BS 669” then a bayonet connection must be used, however section 7.9.5 goes on to state that pre-made assemblies are optional and you may  “......use suitable nozzles secured by crimped or worm‐drive clips; and,”.  There then follows requirements about clip style, size etc.

 

Therefore bayonet fittings are not required in all cases.

 

At least that is how I read it.

That would be far more logical so I suspect that you are correct.

 

As I wrote to the OP, best to check with his examiner and then make his own choice. 

[RickS]

Thanks Chewbacka and WotEver - can I see if I have this correct because the regulation as stated seems strange to me?

If I buy a replacement hose, like for like, with the nut assembly that is there at the moment - because it is 'pre-made', i.e. I didn't make it myself, I must now have a bayonet fitting on the gas line. Whereas, if I choose to get plain hose and connect it onto the end of the pipe myself, then that is OK? Or I suppose it also means it is also OK to construct a hard pipe from the gas line to the cooker myself? I really don't understand the logic to this.

Either I fit a bayonet (which i don't feel comfortable doing myself) or it's fine for me to cobble something together that is held together with jubilee clips (!!) - really not going to be doing that ?

Or have I misinterpreted? 

[Batavia]

14 hours ago, Rick Savery said:

Does anyone know / recommend a gas safe engineer in the Daventry area please ? The only ones I know are in Dorset!

Justin Green (JG Marine) in Braunston.

 

Chris G

[RickS]

Thanks Chris. He did my initial boat survey! Not sure why I didn't think of him. Maybe I just thought of him as specifically a surveyor - I'll give him a ring

[Paul Gwilliams]

22 minutes ago, Rick Savery said:

Thanks Chris. He did my initial boat survey! Not sure why I didn't think of him. Maybe I just thought of him as specifically a surveyor - I'll give him a ring

Let me know how you get on.

 

I'm just fitting a bayonet fitting and new cooker to mine as part of a kitchen sorry galley refit.

 

I was was quoted £550 (a land based company) for plumbing in my cooker including bayonet point so I posted on here and got the information required to diy. 

[RickS]

I obviously don't know exactly what you needed done, but that does sound a lot of money.

 

Meant to ask - did you end up doing the job completely yourself?

Edited September 23, 2020 by Rick Savery

[Chewbacka]

6 hours ago, Rick Savery said:

Thanks Chewbacka and WotEver - can I see if I have this correct because the regulation as stated seems strange to me?

If I buy a replacement hose, like for like, with the nut assembly that is there at the moment - because it is 'pre-made', i.e. I didn't make it myself, I must now have a bayonet fitting on the gas line. Whereas, if I choose to get plain hose and connect it onto the end of the pipe myself, then that is OK? Or I suppose it also means it is also OK to construct a hard pipe from the gas line to the cooker myself? I really don't understand the logic to this.

Either I fit a bayonet (which i don't feel comfortable doing myself) or it's fine for me to cobble something together that is held together with jubilee clips (!!) - really not going to be doing that ?

Or have I misinterpreted? 

If you fit a pre-made hose AND that pre-made hose is approved to BS 669 then you must use a self sealing bayonet connector.  However if the pre-made hose is NOT a BS669 hose then section 7.9.5 applies and this does not mandate a bayonet connection.  Though it is not easy reading, the BSS checklist is worth reading.

 

Added - To respond to your jokey comment about cobbling together a connection, the BSS does not allow you to push a hose onto the end of the pipe, a gas nozzle (and not any old hose tail) is a mandatory requirement.  
 

added - before retirement my job involved compliance to various BS and other standards so I am used to the difficult sentences structure and language.  They tend to be difficult to read as the writer is trying to stop flexible interpretation and loopholes.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Chewbacka

[RickS]

Thanks Chewbacka, that does actually make it clearer. Compliance with BS 669 seems to be the deciding factor - although I won't pretend I know why there should be BS 669 and non-BS 669 hoses.

 

I was being facetious, but it really didn't make sense to me at the time. Rest assured I have no intention of trying to be creative with any kind of installation on the boat - particularly gas!

 

I appreciate the necessity of strict use of language - scientific papers have similar unreadability at times - but exactness is important, it just makes interpretation somewhat difficult if you don't fully (or even partially) understand the context. Thanks for taking the time to clarify for me.

 

Finding someone who can fit the bayonet and check the system - at a reasonable price - is the priority. 

[Paul Gwilliams]

5 hours ago, Rick Savery said:

I obviously don't know exactly what you needed done, but that does sound a lot of money.

 

Meant to ask - did you end up doing the job completely yourself?

It was just to fit a bayonet and hose everything else was okay. Still haven't fitted but hopefully will in the next couple of days

[Ronaldo47]

£550 sounds excessive: you can get a bayonet socket and lead for under £20 from the likes of Screwfix and Toolstation, so it's £530 for labour for what should't take more than 10 mins. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Ronaldo47
Typo

[Iain_S]

23 hours ago, Rick Savery said:

Thanks Chewbacka, that does actually make it clearer. Compliance with BS 669 seems to be the deciding factor - although I won't pretend I know why there should be BS 669 and non-BS 669 hoses.

 

I was being facetious, but it really didn't make sense to me at the time. Rest assured I have no intention of trying to be creative with any kind of installation on the boat - particularly gas!

 

I appreciate the necessity of strict use of language - scientific papers have similar unreadability at times - but exactness is important, it just makes interpretation somewhat difficult if you don't fully (or even partially) understand the context. Thanks for taking the time to clarify for me.

 

Finding someone who can fit the bayonet and check the system - at a reasonable price - is the priority. 

BS669 is the standard for flexible hose, with sockets. It mandates a 1/2" BSP taper thead and a bayonet fitting on the other end. The construction of the hose is specified, ansd there are different materials used for natural gas and LPG. (LPG ones have a red stripe, whereas natural gas ones have a yellow stripe(

[RickS]

Thanks Ian_S. I have to say that BS669 is very confusing - if it is a BS 669 hose then a bayonet fitting must be used, well yes, as that is specified in BS 669 - if a non-BS 669 hose is used then you don't have to.

So the BS 669 ensures that the hoses are made to a specific standard, but it doesn't make any rules about whether or not you have to use them - so back to square one about whether to install a bayonet fitting or not. British Standards seem to have a logic all their own.

 

I appreciate all the advice on this i have been given, but I still feel unsure about what the rule actually says - it seems to say that so long as the hose is fitted properly you can fit whatever hose you like - so long as it is for LPG.

[system 4-50]

1 hour ago, Iain_S said:

LPG ones have a red stripe, whereas natural gas ones have a yellow stripe(

Not necesarily.  Mine have no red stripe - IIRC they are all-yellow.

[Iain_S]

9 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

Not necesarily.  Mine have no red stripe - IIRC they are all-yellow.

Are you sure it is one for LPG, not natural gas?

[system 4-50]

1 hour ago, Iain_S said:

Are you sure it is one for LPG, not natural gas?

https://www.screwfix.com/p/cookerflex-bayonet-lpg-cooker-hose-12-5mm-x-1250mm/5168j#product_additional_details_container

This is not the one I used as mine was only 1M and mine did not have natural gas specified but does show no red stripe.

[RickS]

Just an update - spoke to the gas safe chap at the marina - apparently, pre1998 boats, its OK to use a flexible hose, post 1998 should be solid copper. The reasoning behind this is that the rubber in the hose is affected by lpg and can degrade, so if not changed regularly it could be a problem. My boat was, it is believed, built in 1998 so I chose to have the  flexible hose - mainly so I can move the cooker if needs be.

A bayonet fitting is a big no on boats apparently. The BS669 that was confusing me, is just a specification of the hose from the cooker - nothing to do with how the cooker has to be installed - my bad for getting it out of context slightly.

So a big thank you to all for your help and advice, much appreciated - I think not doing it myself was the right choice - for me, at this time. Maybe in the future I might feel differently about changing the hose.

Thanks again

[WotEver]

Sounds like a GasSafe Bod making up his own rules as he goes along. Please ask him for the BSS checkpoint for any of his assertions. For instance ‘a bayonet fitting is a big no on boats’ is directly contrary to the BSS clause I posted a few days ago. And there’s nothing in the BSS about date of manufacture. I think he’s mixing up RCD regulations with what’s actually required by the BSS. There’s nothing wrong with following current RCD regs, they’re very good, but they’re not ‘requirements’. 

Or perhaps as a GasSafe registered installer he ‘has’ to follow RCD guidance?  Anybody know?

[Chewbacka]

17 hours ago, WotEver said:

Sounds like a GasSafe Bod making up his own rules as he goes along. Please ask him for the BSS checkpoint for any of his assertions. For instance ‘a bayonet fitting is a big no on boats’ is directly contrary to the BSS clause I posted a few days ago. And there’s nothing in the BSS about date of manufacture. I think he’s mixing up RCD regulations with what’s actually required by the BSS. There’s nothing wrong with following current RCD regs, they’re very good, but they’re not ‘requirements’. 

Or perhaps as a GasSafe registered installer he ‘has’ to follow RCD guidance?  Anybody know?

I guess the more he moves away from best practice/house regs the more exposed he is if something goes wrong.

Added - or he feels he does.

Edited September 27, 2020 by Chewbacka

[system 4-50]

22 hours ago, Rick Savery said:

A bayonet fitting is a big no on boats apparently.

I have 3 on my boat and they have passed the BSS without comment.

[LadyG]

I used Richard Fee , a Gas safe fitter and a BSS examiner, he removed the bayonet and hose which  had 'passed' three or four examinations, and rep,aced it with solid copper ACCORDING TO MANUFACTURER INSTRUCTIONS, he explained an armoured hose could not be examined for deterioration, and it was a fail. If I wanted to rep,ace it, I would have to do the work myself, he would not do it for me.

Edited September 28, 2020 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, LadyG said:

................ he removed the bayonet and hose which  had 'passed' three or four examinations,

So, it was at least 12 years old - maybe 16+ years old. and needed replacing anyway, but he went 'above and beyond'.

 

Flexible gas pipe should be replaced (recommendation) within 5 years of its manufacturing date (normally marked on the hose)

 

From the Calor Gas website :

 

Use only certified hoses to BS:3212 or BS:EN:1763-1 or BS:EN:16436-1 which bear the year and name of manufacturer or stainless steel convoluted hoses marked EN:10380 as LPG attacks and erodes natural rubber. Keep hose lengths as short as possible. All hoses must be secured with proper hose clips. Make sure that the hoses are kept clear of ‘hot spots’ and inspect them from time to time. Replace any hose that shows signs of stiffness, wear, cracking, soft spots or other damage. It is recommended that rubber hoses should be replaced after 5 years service life.

[Ronaldo47]

"... LPG atracks natural rubber ...   " : but are the hoses of flexible hoses with bayonet connectors natural rubber?  

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

"... LPG atracks natural rubber ...   " : but are the hoses of flexible hoses with bayonet connectors natural rubber?  

Not if they're made to EN 16436-1:2014. 

 

Because natural rubber is attacked by LPG, so it would be a silly thing to use...