Air intake for Multi-fuel stove

[Dr Bob]

47 minutes ago, alistair1537 said:

Dear Dr. Bob Did you try an external air source for your multifuel? Did you run any experiments with heats and moisture levels? I'm especially interested to hear how your fuel demands increased or decreased w.r.t. any experiments you performed. I feel we all have a part to play in our awareness of carbon levels on our planet, so any conscious effort to reduce emissions should be lauded. 

No, it was all about air circulation. Pointless measuring fuel demands as the first thing you will do when you get your stove up to temperature is open your windows.

Air circulation is the most important thing once the fire is lit to get hot air down the boat and cold damp air out. You are ignoring air circulation in your quest to save the planet. I am playing a part in reducing carbon emissions by having lithium batteries (half the engine running) and an EV.

Experimental data somewhere on here.

[WotEver]

I am totally staggered by the arrogance of the OP. 

34 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

You are ignoring air circulation...

He’s ignoring absolutely everyone. Presumably because they don’t agree with his flawed thinking. 

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I concur, the problem is getting rid of excess heat.

Remember its an oil heater, he can turn it down unlike coal

On 16/09/2020 at 19:02, Tracy D'arth said:

I remember the Ellis boiler instructions that insisted on a vent cut through the floor in front of the boiler, tricky on a boat I thought.

But do the manufacture say they are suitable for installing in boats?

[Rob-M]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Remember its an oil heater, he can turn it down unlike coal

But do the manufacture say they are suitable for installing in boats?

Are you sure, the OP stated "We are busy installing a Multi-fuel stove for our first winter on board"

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

Only stove I have had that needed an external air input was a Sig Marine diesel stove. The air input had to be piped from near to the flue output so that the differential in air pressure was at a minimum. Before I fitted the air inlet the stove flame was susceptible to outside doors being opened etc.

 .

I think the OP is talking about an oil burning stove

[WotEver]

21 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think the OP is talking about an oil burning stove

Why do you think that? He stated in the OP that it is multi-fuel. 

On 14/09/2020 at 07:36, alistair1537 said:

We are busy installing a Multi-fuel stove for our first winter on board

 

[mrsmelly]

37 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I am totally staggered by the arrogance of the OP. 

He’s ignoring absolutely everyone. Presumably because they don’t agree with his flawed thinking. 

And here lies the problem. Some peeps go onto a forum supposedly asking advice or asking for thoughts on an idea and when those of us with umpteen years experience politely explain its a crap idea they continue to put their rubbish idea into us as though it makes sense. Methinks we will very soon have yet another so called liveaboard boat on the market when the OP realises reality is far from his idea of liveaboard life.

[Tony Brooks]

deleted

Edited September 20, 2020 by Tony Brooks

[Tracy D'arth]

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

A radioisotope generator would be ideal for a boat. Provides both heat and electricity year round. In summer, the heat could be dumped in to the canal via a skin tank. In winter, used to heat radiators. A steady supply to charge the batteries all year, day and night and your roof clear of solar panels. Used to be used in the Soviet Union for powering lighthouses and the like. Would give you a warm glow inside all year round! As they haven't been made for some years you would have to buy second-hand. You would need to refuel it with some fresh Strontium 90, but I'm sure you could find some on Ebay. CaRT doesn't specifically say that you can't dispose of spent radioactive waste in their refuse bins.

 

Jen

 

Caesium 137 may be easier to obtain.  Perhaps BNFL might let me have some from Sellafield next time I go there as a consultant. It has a slightly longer half-life.

I did consider radon capture and storage in car innertubes, but unfortunately the higher concentrations in the UK are where there are practically no canals. Is there a connection? Did the digging of the canal network release all the radon?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

7 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Caesium 137 may be easier to obtain.  Perhaps BNFL might let me have some from Sellafield next time I go there as a consultant. It has a slightly longer half-life.

I did consider radon capture and storage in car innertubes, but unfortunately the higher concentrations in the UK are where there are practically no canals. Is there a connection? Did the digging of the canal network release all the radon?

The working boat men and women used to put the Radon in those fancy stoves they had in the back cabin to cook their food and keep the kettle on the boil. That is why there is very little Radon left in parts of the country with canals. It also explains why there are so few historic photographs of back cabin interiors. The radiation would fog the film.

Jen

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The working boat men and women used to put the Radon in those fancy stoves they had in the back cabin to cook their food and keep the kettle on the boil. That is why there is very little Radon left in parts of the country with canals. It also explains why there are so few historic photographs of back cabin interiors. The radiation would fog the film.

Jen

Excellent logic, thank you.

With my imagination and your reasoning we could take over the world.

[alistair1537]

3 hours ago, WotEver said:

I am totally staggered by the arrogance of the OP. 

He’s ignoring absolutely everyone. Presumably because they don’t agree with his flawed thinking. 

Au Contraire! I'm not ignoring everyone and their advice - I did not ask for your input as to the merits of what I wish to do - I asked for a source for a suitable vent cover. 

 

Advice offered is always welcome, but to claim I'm ignoring it is simply nonsense - I have already moved from carving another hole in the boat to placing the ventilation pipe near an existing ventilation - Thanks to Dor and the wife for the ideas! 

 

As far as the replies to this thread so far, not one of any posters has tried what I am proposing to do - no-one has thought about this idea before on a boat, but seemingly that makes it a bad idea?

 

Even when sealed room boilers are now mandatory - not one of you have thought how this could benefit heating and reduce CO risks on your boats.

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, alistair1537 said:

Au Contraire! I'm not ignoring everyone and their advice - I did not ask for your input as to the merits of what I wish to do - I asked for a source for a suitable vent cover. 

 

Advice offered is always welcome, but to claim I'm ignoring it is simply nonsense - I have already moved from carving another hole in the boat to placing the ventilation pipe near an existing ventilation - Thanks to Dor and the wife for the ideas! 

 

As far as the replies to this thread so far, not one of any posters has tried what I am proposing to do - no-one has thought about this idea before on a boat, but seemingly that makes it a bad idea?

 

Even when sealed room boilers are now mandatory - not one of you have thought how this could benefit heating and reduce CO risks on your boats.

 

The part in red is typical of posters who come on with bright ideas and the get the hump when it is explained why their idea may have flaws. Upon what  grounds do you claim "no-one has thought about this idea before on a boat"? Can I have the proof because I don't think you have any. As I said much earlier in the thread go ahead and try it, its your boat and if you want to risk it running with condensation far more than is usual be my guest. If you want to risk the hull rusing from the inside out again be my guest. If you want to risk your cloths being permanently damp be my guest.

 

The reasons this may not be a good idea have all been explained to you but by all means ignore probably may hundreds of man years of experience and see if your idea works. It may do but on balance myself and many others think you will create problems. Lets wait and see but somehow if you do suffer in the ways predicted I suspect we won't hear from you again.

[GUMPY]

28 minutes ago, alistair1537 said:

As far as the replies to this thread so far, not one of any posters has tried what I am proposing to do - no-one has thought about this idea before on a boat, but seemingly that makes it a bad idea?

 

Strange I thought I said I fitted an air intake to a diesel stove ?

If you look at the Sig Marine stove you will see that it is designed to have that facility having a 3" circular air intake to which can be added ducting.

http://mail.sigmarine.com/SIG-120.html

It worked well as it stopped it blowing out when the wheelhouse door was opened.

I thought about it for my other diesel stove ( Old Dutch) and realised there was no way it could be done as a sealed system,

Much the same as multi fuel stoves they are not designed to be room sealed and going down that route could be ..................

 

 

So at least one of us has done similar on a stove that was designed to be that way.

 

 

ETA we love the fact that when drying laundry in front of any of our stoves all the moisture is sucked through the fire and up the flue so it doesn't condense inside the boat/cottage.

Edited September 20, 2020 by Loddon

[system 4-50]

Calm please! All sides of the argument have been fairly put, and now is the point where people want their points to be accepted, and everybody gets hot under the (roof) collar.  Lets wish the OP well and treat him nicely and maybe he will feel sufficiently at home here to come back and report on how he gets on with his experiments, well or badly.

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, WotEver said:

Why do you think that? He stated in the OP that it is multi-fuel. 

 

In that case I must have misread the opening post and there is a lot of water under the bridge since then

[Sea Dog]

10 minutes ago, Loddon said:

ETA we love the fact that when drying laundry in front of any of our stoves all the moisture is sucked through the fire and up the flue so it doesn't condense inside the boat/cottage.

This is indeed a highly agreeable thing and well worth pointing out.

 

Not so sure about the idea of a boat/cottage though:  doesn't canal water play havoc with your damp course?  

[alistair1537]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Upon what  grounds do you claim "no-one has thought about this idea before on a boat"? Can I have the proof because I don't think you have any.

If you read my reply properly, I was pointing out those that have pooh-poohed the idea as a bad one - those have not tried it - yet claim it is without merit.

In my very first reply I mention that it has been done for ages - meaning it has been done before - and in boats - as I mentioned Refleks make a kit for air intake ducts.

 

Try being less pedantic.

 

Besides, there are plenty of boats that are heated through radiators from diesel boilers in engine rooms - do they suffer from damp and mold? They should according to the logic on this forum - they need a stove to suck the air out of the boat...

Edited September 20, 2020 by alistair1537

[alistair1537]

2 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

Calm please! All sides of the argument have been fairly put, and now is the point where people want their points to be accepted, and everybody gets hot under the (roof) collar.  Lets wish the OP well and treat him nicely and maybe he will feel sufficiently at home here to come back and report on how he gets on with his experiments, well or badly.

Thanks for the advice given - the forum members may not be aware but it is as simple as a duct disconnection to revert back to a normal stove. I am running as a normal stove at the moment - albeit through the rear mounted damper system - as soon I have established a recognizable pattern to the performance of the stove, I will couple the ducted vent and compare performances. 

[GUMPY]

41 minutes ago, alistair1537 said:

Besides, there are plenty of boats that are heated through radiators from diesel boilers in engine rooms - do they suffer from damp and mold? 

Yes they do, quite often.

There have been many posts on here asking about condensation

 

[PeterF]

There was earlier talk of piping in the combustion air from the engine room, the Refleks instructions someone posted explain that this is a bad idea. If you start your engine with the stove burning, the engine room will go below atmospheric pressure as the engine draws in air, potentially drawing fluegas back from the stove. I do not know all your boat details but this must be considered properly.

 

Secondly, you have stated that drawing in the external air is to help with carbon emissions. I am not sure that this will help much, yes you save some heat inside the boat by not using your warm air for combustion, but instead you draw in colder external air, so your fire runs cooler for the same fuel burn rate, so the stove gives out less heat for the same fuel burn rate, which matches the reduced heat demand due to not using heated internal air for combustion. Nett result is no carbon saving when you consider the complete energy balance.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, alistair1537 said:

If you read my reply properly, I was pointing out those that have pooh-poohed the idea as a bad one - those have not tried it - yet claim it is without merit.

In my very first reply I mention that it has been done for ages - meaning it has been done before - and in boats - as I mentioned Refleks make a kit for air intake ducts.

 

Try being less pedantic.

 

Besides, there are plenty of boats that are heated through radiators from diesel boilers in engine rooms - do they suffer from damp and mold? They should according to the logic on this forum - they need a stove to suck the air out of the boat...

 

But those are oil fuel stoves not solid fuel. As has been pointed out earlier in the thread with an oil stove you can turn the oil delivery down. The equivalent for a sold fuel stove is very difficult, it has to be done by air damper, amount of fuel added and the degree of ashing in the stove.  Every litre of gas you burn on the cooking stove you will produce two litres of air born water.

 

The BSS/RCD will also demand a degree of high and low level ventilation so you will not be allowed to make the boat  anything like air tight and even then we still suffer condensation. You may well be advised to look at double glazed windows as well.

 

I have no idea how much water vapour people breath out and it all adds up. Try it and see but I fear you will be venting hot air from the boat via open windows and doors - again as has been explained to you. I await your results with interest.

 

Experience tells me that when people start saying their plans are in some way "green" they tend to be re-inventing the wheel, all too often with poor results. If you want to help the environment i think you will do much better by installing solar charging and lithium batteries that store far more of the potential electricity generated for use later. This reduces typical engine charging to give a long battery life form maybe 12 hours or more once a week plus four hours or more each day to probably less than 4 in the winter and never in the summer. In fact one of our members has a solar powered electric wide beam boat. That would make a tremendous difference to pollution.

[bizzard]

The wheel might be reinventable, but the principal of the ''Crank where a linearial motion is converted into a rotory one or visa versa'' is very possible to reinvent as  I think it's patent has been allowed to lapse. I'll check at the patent office and if it has I'll reinvent it. Until the Royalties are paid to me anything employing the crank principal, like IC engines and thousand upon thousands of devices and mechanisms employing it will have to cease to operate or to be manufactured.  I think I'll put orders in without delay for a £100 million super yacht and a new brake light bulb for my car, a new flint for my lighter and treat myself to a box of 4 mint ice cream cones at Aldi 89p, OOh and their fresh fruit cheese cake at £1-10p.

Edited September 20, 2020 by bizzard

[Dr Bob]

No Bizz, you can't do that! Once patented, the IP becomes prior art so can not be filed again as inventive. Now, if you could workout out how to convert the energy of someone moving in time to rotary energy you will be on a winner. I'll buy a yacht with you as well and maybe a few islands.

[alistair1537]

11 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

But those are oil fuel stoves not solid fuel. As has been pointed out earlier in the thread with an oil stove you can turn the oil delivery down. The equivalent for a sold fuel stove is very difficult, it has to be done by air damper, amount of fuel added and the degree of ashing in the stove.  Every litre of gas you burn on the cooking stove you will produce two litres of air born water.

 

The BSS/RCD will also demand a degree of high and low level ventilation so you will not be allowed to make the boat  anything like air tight and even then we still suffer condensation. You may well be advised to look at double glazed windows as well.

 

I have no idea how much water vapour people breath out and it all adds up. Try it and see but I fear you will be venting hot air from the boat via open windows and doors - again as has been explained to you. I await your results with interest.

 

Experience tells me that when people start saying their plans are in some way "green" they tend to be re-inventing the wheel, all too often with poor results. If you want to help the environment i think you will do much better by installing solar charging and lithium batteries that store far more of the potential electricity generated for use later. This reduces typical engine charging to give a long battery life form maybe 12 hours or more once a week plus four hours or more each day to probably less than 4 in the winter and never in the summer. In fact one of our members has a solar powered electric wide beam boat. That would make a tremendous difference to pollution.

I have the required vents - I am not, in any way, attempting to make the boat airtight? I don't know how you made that assumption - I merely want to isolate the air I feed, from the air in the boat. If it results in a wet damp boat I can easily disconnect from the ducting.  I have solar and LiPO4 batteries - I would have gone for an electric boat, except this one came with a diesel, so maybe the next one will be ordered without engine - I have double glazed windows as well - The multifuel stove is the one thing the wife really set her heart on, - I was hell-bent on an oil-burner without the fuss of fuel and waste but the new EU regs regarding boats and agricultural fuel have damped that. The idea of a separate air feed is to minimise fuel requirements - keep a closed system to keep CO from the interior - the stove seals when the door is fully closed. If the system is closed there is little chance of a CO build-up within the boat. 

 

 I may well end up abandoning the idea as we progress into winter and temperatures drop - I may end up venting with fan assistance - these things are not set in stone - and I am very much a person who can admit his idea was a poorly thought out proposition if it comes to that. The experiment requires very little extra cost - money I am quite happy to spend on this exercise.

 

Rule of thumb is that a person breathes out about a litre of water per day. This is what is generally used in designing ventilation systems.