baseplate to black or not to black

[DHutch]

We paint ours.

 

Always have done, having always used docks with reasonable access. Worsley, Middlewich, Northwich.

 

Paint all of it bar under the stands, next time the stands will be in a different place! Very little rust.

 

Daniel

 

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, BWM said:

The hull sides have anodes fitted, so not a relevant comparison. 

Of course it's relevant. Anodes only protect for a 6' radius.

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, mark99 said:

No. There are two main types of corrosion at least.  Oxidisation in O2 rich area and electrolytic. I'm specifically talking about the 2nd. You are now talking re the first. I black the hull and sides to mitigate oxidation. 

 

No. I wasn't being specific about the type of corrosion so please don't try to speak for me and put words in my mouth. I'm just making the point that IF areas where paint is worn away from a painted baseplate result in increased corrosion in whatever form at those points (in comparison to an unpainted baseplate), then the same phenomenon could occur on painted hull sides. Yet nobody would dream of putting forward that argument for not painting the sides! ?

Edited September 7, 2020 by blackrose

[Bee]

Re. anodes, Bee first went into the water in 2008, Epoxy painted and with anodes positioned as near as poss to the makers advice (McDuffs?) She has been hauled our every 3 years or so and pressure washed, sanded with cheap orbital disposable sanders and a hell of a lot of discs just to key the surface , re epoxied and put back in the water. There are a few pits, mostly just along the turn of the bilge. The rudder is well pitted and the little anodes on that need replacing next time, probably because its close to the prop. The rest of the anodes are still OK, It never gets a brilliant Rolls Royce job in laboratory conditions, just a lazy old sod doing a DIY job. I reckon that the anodes are still ok because it nearly always has a coat of paint all over the hull even if that paint has pinholes here and there. In fact painting the boat has protected the anodes! I doubt that anodes do anything at all and are in fact unnecessary as long as the paint covers all the steel - having said that though I shall probably replace them next time so as not to upset the gods. Ancient tribes used to sacrifice people or chickens - silly superstitious lot, we know better and just sacrifice lumps of metal.

[BWM]

On 07/09/2020 at 23:56, blackrose said:

Of course it's relevant. Anodes only protect for a 6' radius.

That's still considerably more than no protection, and i could add the more obvious point that the hull sides are to some degree exposed to the air, unlike the baseplate. 

[mark99]

On 08/09/2020 at 09:36, Bee said:

Re. anodes, Bee first went into the water in 2008, Epoxy painted and with anodes positioned as near as poss to the makers advice (McDuffs?) She has been hauled our every 3 years or so and pressure washed, sanded with cheap orbital disposable sanders and a hell of a lot of discs just to key the surface , re epoxied and put back in the water. There are a few pits, mostly just along the turn of the bilge. The rudder is well pitted and the little anodes on that need replacing next time, probably because its close to the prop. The rest of the anodes are still OK, It never gets a brilliant Rolls Royce job in laboratory conditions, just a lazy old sod doing a DIY job. I reckon that the anodes are still ok because it nearly always has a coat of paint all over the hull even if that paint has pinholes here and there. In fact painting the boat has protected the anodes! I doubt that anodes do anything at all and are in fact unnecessary as long as the paint covers all the steel - having said that though I shall probably replace them next time so as not to upset the gods. Ancient tribes used to sacrifice people or chickens - silly superstitious lot, we know better and just sacrifice lumps of metal.

 

Strictly speaking (as you say) the anodes protect the bits of steel not coated. The coating being an insualtor of electricary. If you have 100% coating the anodes would be 100% new.

[Captain Pegg]

Couple of points regarding above.

 

Even if the hull is fully covered by a protective coating I doubt anodes would remain at 100% being a highly reactive metal in an electrolyte. They would presumably react with any piling in close proximity for starters and possibly chemicals in the water.
 

There was a poster a year or so back who had some potentially useful knowledge in respect of galvanic protection but having introduced themselves as an expert while disparaging the forum’s knowledge it ended badly. They did however assert that the fitment of anodes is not just about protection of dissimilar metals or stray currents from shore supply. It is about controlling the potential of the hull relative to anything else within the shared electrolyte since a boat is not at true earth.

 

On that subject I think the classification of types of corrosion in this thread may be a little misleading since at micro level corrosion is always electrochemical, that’s the science. Even with normal rusting there are anodic and cathodic areas at micro level. I have a feeling it’s all just different means to broadly the same end.

 

There was a poster earlier in the thread that said “we don’t know” which is probably the best answer the forum can collectively give to the original question.

 

JP

Edited September 11, 2020 by Captain Pegg

[kellyjllek]

Hi All some quick questions., posting here as not sure it rates a new thread and it's somewhat related to this topic.

 

I was looking at a springer yesterday and it looks in pretty good nic inside, but it's just been sitting leisure moored mostly since 2018.  The engine fires up, there's obviously some issues. It's from 1981.  

 

so I think I'll make an offer on it subject to survey.. We're talking about the £10K. area. (I'll try to post some photos later)  I just don't have any experience making an actual offer!  It seems though that springers were made with either 4mm or less from the start? So won't it just need replating by default?  The seller had a few things done when they got it, including like a new weekhatch construction. they were told at the time there was no real pitting.  Essentially they did what they needed to do to stay on it and feel safe. It was blacked in 2018 and time to do  again.   ..

 

Anyway, will it just all need a replate?  Will the survey tell me that? Is a hull inspection separate? Do you have any advise on how I may move forward? 

 

I'd like to make an offer subject to survey, then if it comes back and needs a lot of repair, we'd get an rough estimate and I'd ask the seller to split the cost, (as long as it doesn't break my budget!). At least that is the plan! 

 

Anyway, seller seems very friendly and genuine and we got along very well. I know that doesn't mean much but it's better than the opposite!  I'm trying to decide the best way to go about things. 

 

It seems like a good starter boat for me. It'll need work I'm sure, and have plenty of issues. And it could be a money pit! But at least this risk is on average 1/2 to 1/3 the cost/money pit of other used older options..  (I think!).  

 

Sorry for such a lack of info, but if you have thoughts, (or think I should run to the hills), please share! 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, kellyjllek said:

 It seems though that springers were made with either 4mm or less from the start?

 

What size is the boat ?

Does it have an outboard engine or an inboard engine ?

Small Springers (say) 20-28 foot were made of 4mm, bigger Springers used thicker metal, but basically they used whatever scrap metal they could pick up.

 

Get your own survey done.

Surveyor will give you an idea of value 'as is', how much it will cost to do the repairs he suggests.

Make on offer based on the 'as is price' and you do the work, or tell the seller what needs doing and say you'll offer the asking price if they do all the repairs.

 

Maybe a bit of negotiating backwards and forwards and see where you end up.

 

You will probably not get any steel boat for £10,000 that doesn't probably need £5k - £10k spending on it so be prepared.

 

Maintenance costs of Springers is higher than other boats due to the V-shaped hull which few boatyards are set up to handle, so, for example, lifting out and chocking up and blacking will be more expensive than for a standard boat.

 

 

History of Springers :

 

 

Even in the seemingly egalitarian world of boaters, there’s a social pecking order and this is rarely more pronounced than where Springer boats are concerned. Springer was a company based in the Midlands that began mass-producing cheap and cheerful live-aboard narrowboats in the 1960s. While their affordability allowed countless people to join the boating lifestyle, the standard of their construction is sometimes, perhaps unfairly, questioned by the sniffier residents of converted working boats or higher-spec residential craft. But there’s still something hugely endearing about the Springer. These are boats made solidly and entirely without pretension, and as a consequence Springer boats have provided a friendly and affordable introduction to the canal network for thousands of boaters.

Sam Springer spotted the growing market for purpose-built live-aboard boats in the late 1960s when he was working as a steel fabricator making water tanks in Market Harborough, close to the Grand Union and River Welland. He decided to move into boat-building later claiming “I used to build water tanks, building boats is the same thing but in reverse”. Although his boats were well constructed, Springer had a reputation for using whatever steel was available, meaning that his hulls weren’t always as thick as they could have been. His approach can be summarised by the popular yarn that early in his career, Springer acquired some scrap steel that had once formed an old gasometer and drove back and forwards over it with a truck to remove the bend so it was flat enough to use. Because of such shortcuts, his boats were recognised as providing great value for money and his yard was soon knocking out 400 a year, accounting for almost 50 per cent of the market and at a much lower price than any competition.

Springer boats were built to all sizes but most have two distinguishing features: a raised splash board at the bow and, less visibly, a v-shaped hull rather than the usual flat bottom. They were also among the first boats to be built entirely out of steel rather than with a wooden cabin. Springers do have a tendency to look a little boxy, which does nothing for their reputation among waterways connoisseurs, but they are still lovable boats with a colourful history that, as the years have passed, has lent them a certain rakish charm. Belying their reputation, Springer boats also appear to be impressively hard-wearing with thousands still in use despite the fact the company closed down in the mid-1990s. And Springer boats aren’t just confined to the English waterways – in 1990, the boatyard built the Typhoo Atlantic Challenger, a 37-foot craft shaped like a bottle that crossed the Atlantic from New York to Falmouth. Not bad for a company whose first boats were made from a scrapped gasometer.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[kellyjllek]

Thanks 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

What size is the boat ?

Does it have an outboard engine or an inboard engine ?

Small Springers (say) 20-28 foot were made of 4mm, bigger Springers used thicker metal, but basically they used whatever scrap metal they could pick up.

 

Thanks Alan de Enfield, 

 

It's 28' and inboard engine.  

 

Can I still get it insured?  I thought boats at to be 4mm minimum, but it seems this is not the case?  I would like to be safe and like to be insured so if I had a dire circumstance I wouldn't lose all... 

 

I'd also like it insured right away, as ownership transferred. Not going through a brokerage means I have to figure out what to do properly. I assume I'll have to get a CC license pretty quick too. 

 

But that said, I found this old thread and it does make me feel a little better! 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

On 06/09/2020 at 19:09, Ex Brummie said:

Rust, or oxidiation, requires air and water. There's not much air 2ft6in below the surface.

If you do want to paint it, then do as much as you can reach this time, and put your supports in a different position next time. This way you cover all of it over time

Baloney, there are fish living at huge depths, the oxygen is in the water.

[matty40s]

33 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Baloney, there are fish living at huge depths, the oxygen is in the water.

There are no fish living at huge depths on CRT canals as they are never bleedin dredged.

[Machpoint005]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Baloney, there are fish living at huge depths, the oxygen is in the water.

 

You need gaseous oxygen and water, especially acidic water (pH < 7) for rapid rusting. The stuff fish "breathe" is dissolved in the water.  

 

See my post from yonks ago: the most rusty part of the hull is at the waterline. 

[Tracy D'arth]

20 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

You need gaseous oxygen and water, especially acidic water (pH < 7) for rapid rusting. The stuff fish "breathe" is dissolved in the water.  

 

See my post from yonks ago: the most rusty part of the hull is at the waterline. 

I have been aware of that for around 65 years thank you.

[dmr]

 

Round here the magnet fishermen pull out a lot of metal, especially the windlasses dropped in by the hirers. These have sat right on the bottom of the canal. They are usually very very rusty.

 

A lot of boats need overplating because of rusting on the baseplate or bottom of the sides, not the waterline. This might in part be due to rusting from the inside out, but rusting certainly occurs in the deeper water. Is this not why builders use 10mm for the baseplate?

 

...........Dave

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, dmr said:

Is this not why builders use 10mm for the baseplate?

 

I think it is more to do with ballast - it is easier and cheaper to use a thick base plate than struggle with bits of railway line or concrete slabs, not only does it give a good low down weight it also increases the interior height of the boat as the floor can be several inches lower.

 

This is certainly why Reeves used 1/2" (mine was 13mm) base plates.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Tracy D'arth]

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think it is more to do with ballast - it is easier and cheaper to use a thick base plate than struggle with bits of railway line or concrete slabs, not only does it give a good low down weight it also increases the interior height of the boat as the floor can be several inches lower.

 

This is certainly why Reeves used 1/2" (mine was 13mm) base plates.

It also replaces the keelson which is common in boat building with a 6mm baseplate

[dmr]

25 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think it is more to do with ballast - it is easier and cheaper to use a thick base plate than struggle with bits of railway line or concrete slabs, not only does it give a good low down weight it also increases the interior height of the boat as the floor can be several inches lower.

 

This is certainly why Reeves used 1/2" (mine was 13mm) base plates.

 

Builders used to use thinner steel, and old concrete slabs are cheaper than steel, so I think its 10, rather than 6, to get a good baseplate life accepting the baseplate won't be blacked.

 

Some boats have been built with very thick baseplates, especially when more internal headroom is required, but the vast majority are still 10mm

 

................Dave

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

 

 

Some boats have been built with very thick baseplates, especially when more internal headroom is required, but the vast majority are still 10mm

 

................Dave

Hudsons would not be able to pull the front end in as much as they do without having a 15mm baseplate to run the flux drive welding machine through.

[frangar]

8 hours ago, matty40s said:

Hudsons would not be able to pull the front end in as much as they do without having a 15mm baseplate to run the flux drive welding machine through.

You mean they made them that ugly on purpose??!!