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The boat EMPIRE has, or had, the registration 512200. The Canal Plan listing has the boat as 60ft  long and 6ft 10 in wide. The builder is listed as unknown. This craft has the appearance of a conversion and perhaps may have been a working boat in a earlier life. The choice of name and number may well suggest that previous existence. Has anybody any comments to make about this craft?

813286.jpg

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1 hour ago, J R ALSOP said:

it's a Barry Hawkins built in 2004, completed in 2006 with a 4 pot Gardner

Vaguely remember that was moored in Tattenhall Marina for a while. Circa 2014.

Edited by mark99

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I wonder where it is now.

 

It is remarkable the effort put in to make the boat look like it belonged to a previous time. But that is what has happened in some cases.

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It's Barry Hawkins' take on a "Northwich Trader" a style originally devised and marketed by RW Davies. RW Davies created a pastiche of an original GU boat based upon Northwich built GU boat plans. Plans supplied by the late Mr Hogg.

 

There is a boat almost the same (N Trader) in our marina made by Barry Hawkins.

 

I like the look of RW Davies and Hawkins NT boats but some don't. 

 

Edited by mark99

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On 03/09/2020 at 13:54, Heartland said:

I wonder where it is now.

 

It is remarkable the effort put in to make the boat look like it belonged to a previous time. But that is what has happened in some cases.

Hi Heartland,

 

Here is the same boat type built by Barry Hawkins.

20200912_130428_resized.jpg

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Are these the 366 "rivets" hulls?  I looked and they are coach bolts cut down and welded inside. Why anyone would drill 366 holes in a good hull amazes me. And on the "plate laps" they go all the way down to the baseplate.

 

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23 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Are these the 366 "rivets" hulls?  I looked and they are coach bolts cut down and welded inside. Why anyone would drill 366 holes in a good hull amazes me. And on the "plate laps" they go all the way down to the baseplate.

 

I’m not sure they are made that way. S M Hudson boats certainly weren’t done like that. The ‘rivet’ was a washer that I’m guessing was pressed to shape and then filled with weld metal as a way of both fixing to the hull and creating the domed shape to simulate the rivet head.

Edited by Captain Pegg

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The thing that most rivet fakers miss is that most rivet heads were on the inside of the hill, being peined over on the outside.

Back in the 60s, as a teen, I used to work the portable forge for the Harris brothers at Netherton. I threw the hot rivet into the boat, it was picked up, placed through the holes and hammered into shape on the outside. Hudson’s have yet to float my boat....

  • Greenie 1

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IIRC RW Davies "N. Traders" have circa 1000 decorative "rivets". Assume this is on their 70 foot version not their 62 footer.

Edited by mark99

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31 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

I’m not sure they are made that way. S M Hudson boats certainly weren’t done like that. The ‘rivet’ was a washer that I’m guessing was pressed to shape and then filled with weld metal as a way of both fixing to the hull and creating the domed shape to simulate the rivet head.

 

Hence the expression "washer Josher".

 

 And when the rust gets hold, it forces the washer away from the plate, and sooner or later the washer falls off...

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7 minutes ago, dave moore said:

The thing that most rivet fakers miss is that most rivet heads were on the inside of the hill, being peined over on the outside.

Back in the 60s, as a teen, I used to work the portable forge for the Harris brothers at Netherton. I threw the hot rivet into the boat, it was picked up, placed through the holes and hammered into shape on the outside. Hudson’s have yet to float my boat....

Saw a fake-rivetless Hudson last week. There’s at least two of them out there.

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20 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Hence the expression "washer Josher".

 

 And when the rust gets hold, it forces the washer away from the plate, and sooner or later the washer falls off...

I've got a R. Fuller  'washer josher' (image of bow washers below) and the false rivets are fine and never rusted. I don't doubt it can happen tho. The rivets came with the 2nd hand boat and I'm neutral about them.

15 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Saw a fake-rivetless Hudson last week. There’s at least two of them out there.

There were two "Hudson" boatbuilders IIRC......

Resized_20170408_124520.jpeg

Edited by mark99

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20 minutes ago, mark99 said:

 

There were two "Hudson" boatbuilders IIRC......

 

There was indeed more than one Hudson boatbuilder but both the boats to which I referred were SM Hudson built. Distinctive in other ways than just the fake rivets of course.

Edited by Captain Pegg

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5 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

There was indeed more than one Hudson boatbuilder but both the boats to which I referred were SM Hudson built. Distinctive in other ways than just the fake rivets of course.

 

 

True...... was it Neil Hudson?

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2 hours ago, mark99 said:

IIRC RW Davies "N. Traders" have circa 1000 decorative "rivets". Assume this is on their 70 foot version not their 62 footer.

Looked at one of their hulls at a show and the cabin what looked like rivets were bolts right through

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2 hours ago, dave moore said:

The thing that most rivet fakers miss is that most rivet heads were on the inside of the hill, being peined over on the outside.

Back in the 60s, as a teen, I used to work the portable forge for the Harris brothers at Netherton. I threw the hot rivet into the boat, it was picked up, placed through the holes and hammered into shape on the outside. Hudson’s have yet to float my boat....

 

It would be even more pointless to weld the washers inside the hull though!

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7 hours ago, mark99 said:

I've got a R. Fuller  'washer josher' (image of bow washers below) and the false rivets are fine and never rusted. I don't doubt it can happen tho. The rivets came with the 2nd hand boat and I'm neutral about them.

There were two "Hudson" boatbuilders IIRC......

Resized_20170408_124520.jpeg

I'm the owner of Stalwart, reputedly the original washer josher that coined the phrase and built in 1988/9. Unfortunately by the time I bought her in 2000 all the washers were in a bad way with several falling off. I marked their position and replaced the lot, all 652 of them, pre-dished with a ball pein hammer and socket before welding on.

IMG_0759.jpg

  • Greenie 2

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The original commercial use of washers as imitation  rivets was done by Stoke-on-Trent Boat Building, albeit they only did the (Barlaston style)  bow.  There was a boat review of one in WW sometime in the 80's.  Certainly by '89, when  we bought Jarrah, washers on their 'Elver' style boats were a delete option at RW Davis.

 

It may, or not, be a coincidence that Phil Trotter worked for both concerns

 

N

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Blimey, must be a slow news day to have a thread about a 2004 Barry Hawkins boat in the History & Heritage section. 

 

Perhaps if a mod is reading this they might feel it necessary to move it somewhere more relevant, like the 'Boat Building' sub-form?

  • Greenie 1

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1 hour ago, mark99 said:

Who made Stalwarts shell?

Roger Fuller, at that time working as "Five towns boatbuiders" 

Hector is another of his earlier shells,  built before Stalwart and without the washers. He admitted that Stalwarts hull, in particular the bow was the boat he put the most effort into and he certainly did something right as it's fooled many an "expert" in the field!

It comes down to the builder willing to work with the customer I suppose, the original owner knew exactly what he wanted (he owns the josher Dragon) and would have been happy to pay for it. Unfortunately with 90% of today's fabricators there's no chance of such shells being built again.

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I recall Macolm Braine having pictures of riveting at Harris Brothers and showing them at a BCNS talk. 

 

I suspect that this is a skill now lost, but it would be of interest to know if it is still practiced.

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