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1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

The condition of the Hull is no longer unknown...

This is an interesting point.  Ordinarily a surveyor's report can only be relied upon by the person who commissioned it.  But what happens after a disappointed buyer specifically discloses some of the survey results to the vendor/broker - which usually happens with the faults in order to negotiate on price?  Can they still honestly pretend they are unaware of those issues?

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2 hours ago, Cheese said:

This is an interesting point.  Ordinarily a surveyor's report can only be relied upon by the person who commissioned it.  But what happens after a disappointed buyer specifically discloses some of the survey results to the vendor/broker - which usually happens with the faults in order to negotiate on price?  Can they still honestly pretend they are unaware of those issues?

Mine. Field. 

 

 

7 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

You are more experienced now, and know what to expect next time.

 

7 hours ago, reg said:

 

Don't  be put of coming back for advice on future purchases. 

Good luck with your search. 

This! 

 

 

Daniel

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4 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Yes, but my question was really related to how he reached the conclusion. Some surveyors might find a few 8mm pits in a10mm bottom, and tell you it all needs replacing, whereas it might only need a couple of feet plating. 

A 1970s boat will almost certainly not have had a 10mm bottom. 8mm pits in a 6mm bottom would be more than worrying...

 

If a boat this old needs complete overplating, that should be fairly obvious from a critical look while the boat is still in the water. Next time the OP looks at a boati in this price bracket, he would be well advised to take a more knowledgable friend along before committing to the cost of lift out and survey.

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17 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I had that with a house. Usually house surveys are so riddled with get out clauses it's hard to tell anything. This one said the surveyor wouldn't advise anyone to go through the door without wearing a hard hat and protective clothing!

It wasn't a ''get out clause'' in this case .

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23 hours ago, Kkk said:

My surveyor valued the boat at 4k and 10k if the work was done

 

The purpose of a survey is to prevent you buying a pig in a poke. Otherwise, why bother?

As a consequence, you have (presumably) walked away, saving yourself a huge chunk of money, as others have pointed out. Breathe a sigh of relief, learn from the experience, and stop worrying about stuff over which you have no control. 

17 hours ago, Cheese said:

This is an interesting point.  Ordinarily a surveyor's report can only be relied upon by the person who commissioned it.  But what happens after a disappointed buyer specifically discloses some of the survey results to the vendor/broker - which usually happens with the faults in order to negotiate on price?  Can they still honestly pretend they are unaware of those issues?

 

They can pretend, but probably not honestly.

 

Caveat emptor.

 

 

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17 hours ago, Cheese said:

 Can they still honestly pretend they are unaware of those issues?

Is it possible to pretend honestly?

"Claim", perhaps?

(Oddly enough, the French verb for claim is "prétendre").

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58 minutes ago, Athy said:

Is it possible to pretend honestly?

"Claim", perhaps?

(Oddly enough, the French verb for claim is "prétendre").

 

I suppose the installation of a "Chinese wall" (eg between two barristers on opposite sides of a case) is an honest pretence.

 

The French word for "sorry" is "désolé" which always seems over-dramatic to me!

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18 hours ago, Cheese said:

This is an interesting point.  Ordinarily a surveyor's report can only be relied upon by the person who commissioned it.  But what happens after a disappointed buyer specifically discloses some of the survey results to the vendor/broker - which usually happens with the faults in order to negotiate on price?  Can they still honestly pretend they are unaware of those issues?

I would have thought it was contrary to the 2011 Trades Descriptions Act to not disclose things you had been told/knew.

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I think vendors / brokers are still obliged to give honest answers to questions, and not to knowingly make false statements.  So it would be sensible for any buyer to ask questions along the lines of:

- has anyone else made an offer on this boat?

- did they have a survey?

- do you know any of the results of that survey?

- were any serious faults disclosed?

etc

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I would have thought it was contrary to the 2011 Trades Descriptions Act to not disclose things you had been told/knew.

Possibly more pertinent would be The Misrepresentation Act 1967.  If you say the hull is sound when you know it isn't then you've misrepresented the facts.

 

According to the RYA, the various acts that protect a purchaser are The Consumer Rights Act 2015, The Sale of Goods Act 1979, The Misrepresentation Act 1967, The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 and The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumer Regulations 2002.

 

It's still a case of Caveat Emptor though, if you don't ask the relevant questions.

 

https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/legal/Web Documents/Legal Leaflets/Members Advice/Sale and Purchase Pack/STEP BY STEP GUIDE TO BUYING AND SELLING A BOAT.pdf

43 minutes ago, Cheese said:

I think vendors / brokers are still obliged to give honest answers to questions, and not to knowingly make false statements.  So it would be sensible for any buyer to ask questions along the lines of:

- has anyone else made an offer on this boat?

- did they have a survey?

- do you know any of the results of that survey?

- were any serious faults disclosed?

etc

 

 

Indeed :)

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1 hour ago, WotEver said:

According to the RYA, the various acts that protect a purchaser are The Consumer Rights Act 2015, The Sale of Goods Act 1979, The Misrepresentation Act 1967, The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 and The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumer Regulations 2002.

But, only the Consumer to consumer legislation will apply, unless it is owned by the Broker, and as K has discussed things with both the seller and the broker it appears that they are not the same.

 

There is very little legislations that protects the consumer in a C to C transaction.

 

The Sales & supply of Goods acts only related to a Trade to consumer transaction.

 

You can only 'return' the item or ask for you money back from a 'trader' not from private individual

 

From 'Which' article on consumer rights :

 

Did you buy it from a private seller?

When you buy from an individual (as opposed to a retailer), the Consumer Rights Act says that the goods you get must be as they were described to you by the seller.

There's no obligation on the seller to disclose any faults, but misrepresenting goods isn't allowed.

For example, something second-hand should not be described as new. If it is, the seller will be in breach of contract.

 

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The Sales & supply of Goods acts only related to a Trade to consumer transaction

 

A couple of questions.

 

1.  I admit I haven't read the whole act but the S of G act summary says

"The Sales of Goods Act 1979 is an Act that regulates the sale of goods that are bought and sold in the UK and the binding contract between both parties. The contract of sale states that the transfer of property from a seller to a buyer is completed through a money transaction, known as the price." 

That to me doesn't suggest it has to be trade to consumer merely two parties.   Is the summary wrong and why?

 

2.  The Trade Descriptions Act covers services, surely brokerage is a service and unless the seller is responsible for every word written or said by the brokerage then they aren't operating within the act.  Are they?

 

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35 minutes ago, Jerra said:

 

2.  The Trade Descriptions Act covers services, surely brokerage is a service and unless the seller is responsible for every word written or said by the brokerage then they aren't operating within the act.  Are they?

But the seller is responsible for every word said. The broker ‘understands the situation to be...’

49 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But, only the Consumer to consumer legislation will apply...

Hence my observation that caveat emptor applies. 

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1 hour ago, Jerra said:

A couple of questions.

 

1.  I admit I haven't read the whole act but the S of G act summary says

"The Sales of Goods Act 1979 is an Act that regulates the sale of goods that are bought and sold in the UK and the binding contract between both parties. The contract of sale states that the transfer of property from a seller to a buyer is completed through a money transaction, known as the price." 

That to me doesn't suggest it has to be trade to consumer merely two parties.   Is the summary wrong and why?

 

2.  The Trade Descriptions Act covers services, surely brokerage is a service and unless the seller is responsible for every word written or said by the brokerage then they aren't operating within the act.  Are they?

 

 

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 has now been replaced by the Consumer Rights Act 2015, but you may be able to claim under it if goods you bought on or before 30 September 2015 become faulty.

 

 

The Consumer Rights Act 2015

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 became law on 1 October 2015, replacing three major pieces of consumer legislation - the Sale of Goods Act, Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations, and the Supply of Goods and Services Act. It was introduced to simplify, strengthen and modernise the law, giving you clearer shopping rights.

 

 

What are consumer rights for buyers?

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 does not apply to private sellers, and a buyer's rights are significantly reduced when a sale is carried out between two individuals. The law does state, however, that:

  • the seller must have the right to sell the item in question (meaning they are the owner, or have permission from the owner to sell the item)
  • the goods must match their description and the photograph used

 

https://www.collectplus.co.uk/help-advice/consumer-rights-for-private-sales

 

 

 

 

This is why brokers have the 'small print' saying they have based the details on those provided by the seller, and, you should ensure they are correct by engaging a survey to act on your behalf. You have no 'come back' on a broker, you can only try and claim against your surveyor if he misses something.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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21 minutes ago, WotEver said:

And good luck with that!

I'm sure that by now you know my position on Surveyors (and trying to take them to court) !

 

Basically, as a 'private individual' buying a boat from either a private individual, or via a broker you have "bu**er all protection"

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'm sure that by now you know my position on Surveyors (and trying to take them to court) !

 

Basically, as a 'private individual' buying a boat from either a private individual, or via a broker you have "bu**er all protection"

Spoke with someone the other week, who'd viewed a boat, liked it enough to arrange getting it out of the water only for the owner selling it to someone prepared to buy without survey. She managed to get half her money back from the yard.

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3 minutes ago, Sir Percy said:

Spoke with someone the other week, who'd viewed a boat, liked it enough to arrange getting it out of the water only for the owner selling it to someone prepared to buy without survey. She managed to get half her money back from the yard.

It's not her fault the sale fell through.  If the yard won't return 100% of her deposit she should take them to small claims court. It's cheap, easy, and free if you win.

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7 minutes ago, Sir Percy said:

Spoke with someone the other week, who'd viewed a boat, liked it enough to arrange getting it out of the water only for the owner selling it to someone prepared to buy without survey. She managed to get half her money back from the yard.

 

I wonder what costs the 'yard' had incurred if it was the seller who sold it and not the 'yard', - had they lifted it out ready for the survey ?

 

I'm not condoning it but it may not be the yard's fault 'it was sold out from underneath her'.

Quite often these tales have more than two-sides to them and the buyer loses out (I cost me over £25k in repairs as a result of buying after what subsequently turned out to be a 'bad survey').

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In this case (from what I know) it was a private sale, seller was iniitially not interested in having it out of the water. Not really blaming the yard. I should have mentioned that this was in London. Maybe another reason to avoid buying in London.

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6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

...This is why brokers have the 'small print' saying they have based the details on those provided by the seller, and, you should ensure they are correct by engaging a survey to act on your behalf. You have no 'come back' on a broker, you can only try and claim against your surveyor if he misses something.

But if the broker (acting on behalf of the seller) becomes aware of something more about the state of the boat, from potential buyers who pull out, they can't then lie about it. 

 

Taking the example above, continuing to say "The condition of the hull is unknown ..." if both seller and broker know that a surveyor has recommended it needs £7000 of work on it is risking some comeback.  Couldn't a subsequent potential buyer, paying another surveyor who say comes up with a similar figure, justifiably claim against the seller or broker for their wasted survey cost?

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