Leisure batteries - advice on what to buy

[PD1964]

I’m going to try a pair of these next time Varta LFD230, as I just want to fit and forget basically and not worry about topping them up, so will see how they work.

https://batteryfactory.co.uk/products/varta-leisure-12v-230ah-cca-1150a-professional-dual-purpose-deep-cycle-930230115-lfd230?variant=21372263759931

[Tony Brooks]

On 27/08/2020 at 09:46, cairanvanrooyen said:

I am in the market for 5no new 110ah 12v leisure batteries.

 

Just a thought - why five. If you are replacing five then fine but if you think that five is in some way "better"  that four or three so are adding more then you may well be mistaken. If you do not monitor them and fully charge them at least once a week then adding more batteries will just extend the time before you start to destroy them by a few hours or days. To be sure about how many batteries you need you really need to do a power audit and then some charging calculations to ensure you do not over discharge the batteries and also very regularly can fully charge them.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Tony Brooks

[cairanvanrooyen]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Just a thought - why five. If you are replacing five then fine but if you think that five is in some way "better"  that four or three so are adding more then you may well be mistaken. If you do not monitor them and fully charge them at least once a week then adding more batteries will just extend the time before you start to destroy them by a few hours or days. To be sure about how many batteries you need you really need to do a power audit and then some charging calculations to ensure you do not over discharge the batteries and also very regularly can fully charge them.

 

 

I am replacing 5 existing for 5 new.

 

I do need to do a power audit - do you have any resources or advice on how to go about this?

 

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I’m going to try a pair of these next time Varta LFD230, as I just want to fit and forget basically and not worry about topping them up, so will see how they work.

https://batteryfactory.co.uk/products/varta-leisure-12v-230ah-cca-1150a-professional-dual-purpose-deep-cycle-930230115-lfd230?variant=21372263759931

Take caution, 200 cycles to 50% depth of discharge does not seem that good to me and as I explained above modern open cell lead calciums are virtually maintenance free.

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, cairanvanrooyen said:

 

I am replacing 5 existing for 5 new.

 

I do need to do a power audit - do you have any resources or advice on how to go about this?

 

 

If you have a method of monitoring the batteries  to infer state of charge at times through the day and also when fully charged then you do not need to do a power audit. The state of charge will tell you if you are using more electricity than is advisable. The simplest tools are an accurate voltmeter and ammeter plus a bit of knowledge about how to interpret them (See @WotEver's battery primer that is pinned at the start of the maintenance section) otherwise one of the amp hour counting battery monitors will tell you all you need PROVIDING you TOTALLY IGNORE any reading giving % of charge and time remaining. The volts, amps and amp hours used will be accurate.

 

Power or energy audit info via google or in my course notes on http://www.tb-training.co.uk

[bill brown]

Another point to make your life easier... try to get batteries with the connections in the same position as those you already have - if you are happy with the way they are setup that is.

[Murflynn]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Did it seem to have a strip of plastic set into the lid along the centre of it length. If so it might lever up to expose the cells but don't try until you have a good reason.

no.  I had such a one previously but in this case the case (no pun intended) was monolithic over the top of the cells.

 

a previous one could be accessed by removing vinyl stickers and levering off the cover strip, as you say.

[Rob-M]

On 27/08/2020 at 11:57, Onewheeler said:

My last set of cheap leisure batteries (Numax) lasted 10 years with minimal care so give it a try.

We are on our 7th year with a set of Numax which doesn't the first 3 months after purchasing sat in our garage. When we are out we cruise most days for 6-8 hours so they get a good charge but our alternator only puts out 14.1v so never a high charging voltage.

[smiler]

6 hours ago, PD1964 said:

I’m going to try a pair of these next time Varta LFD230, as I just want to fit and forget basically and not worry about topping them up, so will see how they work.

https://batteryfactory.co.uk/products/varta-leisure-12v-230ah-cca-1150a-professional-dual-purpose-deep-cycle-930230115-lfd230?variant=21372263759931

I've got 2 of them.

One is 3 years old and the other is 2 years old.(I know it's not wise to mix used and new batteries)

They have had a lot of abuse - been pulled down to 11.6volts quite a few times and never get fully charged.

I even ran an 800w mobile airco unit a few times this year(not for long though)

They are definitely low on capacity compared to new, but they will see this season out (until end of October)

Next spring I will replace with the same(or even lead carbon) and have a much better charging regime.

Be warned though, they are flippi g heavy - 50 odd kg each.

 

[LadyG]

On 27/08/2020 at 10:22, Tony Brooks said:

Agreed, I used ABS for our start battery. Be aware that if you buy sealed you will be limited as to the maximum charging voltage and it will make things far more difficult when it becomes time to diagnose potential battery problems.

 

Maximum charging voltage is only an issue with advanced alternator controllers or land line/solar chargers. Its no problem if they are programmable but might be if they are not.

 

I am with Tracy - only buy expensive if you truly know how to look after them and can keep them very well charged.

I will be replacing two batteries, they are in the domestic number two (bow) bank, feeding the old compressor fridge, which I guess draws 50ah on a hot day.

I use 550watts solar PV, and engine 70amp standard alternator to recharge, I believe the solar charge controller is set to agm, I have a newish 80ah  starter agm, and a newish domestic bank number one, of 3 x135 ah agm.

The bow batteries are about 35 feet from the engine and the solar controller, so I expect there will be some voltage drop.

The batteries are very difficult to access, I don't know what they are, I have nursed them for the last two years, but now they are not holding charge. 

I assume the Leisure 110 sealed batteries from ABS will be OK. I turn fridge off when  there is insufficient solar to keep them charged. They are monitored with LED voltmeter, and system has worked since I bought boat. 

I am going for Leisure brand 2 x 110ah from ABS, under £200.

Agm deep cycle batteries seem to be much more expensive, and not much 'better', should I anticipate major problems?

 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by LadyG

[MarkH2159]

On 27/08/2020 at 11:57, Onewheeler said:

My last set of cheap leisure batteries (Numax) lasted 10 years with minimal care so give it a try.

Agreed. I have 4 x Numax XV31MF type 110 AH domestics and one more Bow thruster battery, almost 7 years old.

Charged in the normal manner, either from engine or inverter/charger or solar.

Zero maintenance and still going strong.

I would recommend them and if and when replacements are needed, I will likely get exactly the same again.

[Rob-M]

2 minutes ago, MarkH2159 said:

Agreed. I have 4 x Numax XV31MF type 110 AH domestics and one more Bow thruster battery, almost 7 years old.

Charged in the normal manner, either from engine or inverter/charger or solar.

Zero maintenance and still going strong.

I would recommend them and if and when replacements are needed, I will likely get exactly the same again.

We have those same Numax batteries, I notice Tayna now advertise them as 105 Ah.  Ours are doing ok after 6 years.

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

I will be replacing two batteries, they are in the domestic number two (bow) bank, feeding the old compressor fridge, which I guess draws 50ah on a hot day.

I use 550watts solar PV, and engine 70amp standard alternator to recharge, I believe the solar charge controller is set to agm, I have a newish 80ah  starter agm, and a newish domestic bank number one, of 3 x135 ah agm.

The bow batteries are about 35 feet from the engine and the solar controller, so I expect there will be some voltage drop.

The batteries are very difficult to access, I don't know what they are, I have nursed them for the last two years, but now they are not holding charge. 

I assume the Leisure 110 sealed batteries from ABS will be OK. I turn fridge off when  there is insufficient solar to keep them charged. They are monitored with LED voltmeter, and system has worked since I bought boat. 

I am going for Leisure brand 2 x 110ah from ABS, under £200.

Agm deep cycle batteries seem to be much more expensive, and not much 'better', should I anticipate major problems?

 

 

 

As a voltmeter is useless for telling you when the batteries are fully charged and any display on the majority of solar controllers are equally useless I don't see how you can ever know when they are fully charged so you might suffer a degree of sulphation but with Solar in the summer and cruising I doubt it will be major. The volt drop to the front batteries (70 ft run) may or may not be significant depending upon cable conductor cross-sectional area and the current flow so expect some volt drop that I can't quantify and that might have the effect of taking longer to get to fully charged.

[Man 'o Kent]

For what it's worth I've been using Lincon Batteries of Southend-on-sea, Essex for over fifty years in cars, yachts and narrowboats without a single failure or complaint. .A very helpful business that will advise and make up a battery to match your requirements.

 

Usual disclaimer, no interest other than a satisified customer.

[NB Alnwick]

We have been using these since the supply of cheap batteries from Vince1969 dried up about ten years back.

They are not always in stock at main suppliers but can usually be found at just over £100 each from a reputable supplier on eBay.

As we recently found, they also make excellent engine start batteries and the 'maintenance-free' attribute suits lazy boaters like me.

The full specification is:

Manufacturer: Bosch
Article number: 0 092 L40 340
Battery Capacity [Ah]: 105
Voltage: 12V
Battery type:  Lead Acid, maintenance free
Length [mm]: 330
Width [mm]: 172
Height [mm]: 238
Post type: BS Taper
Post positions: Central at both ends
Warranty:  4 years

 

[LadyG]

Aha, I have discussed my main problem, with a supplier of Numax, among others, this problrm is the heavy draw from the ancient fridge. They recommend agm rather than sealed, and I have found two agm https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124315780372 which meet my budget.

The inverter also draws from these two batteries, at the moment it is only used for phone and tablet charging. I assume if both the domestic bank number 1, and the domestic (bow) bank number 2 are ON, they act as one battery bank, and therefore it is better to have them all agm.

Edited May 6, 2021 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, LadyG said:

Aha, I have discussed my main problem, with a supplier od Numax, among others, this problrm is the heavy draw from the ancient fridge. The recommend agm rather than sealed, and I have found two agm https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124315780372 which meet my budget

 

Just make sure you can provide the charging voltage they require taking any cable losses into account. The reason is some (older?) types require a lower than typical alternator voltage and at least on supplier demands a charging voltage higher than that from a typical alternator. Your solar and any mains battery charger is more likely to be adjustable to suit so check.

 

FWIW 50 ah per day is not a heavy draw and should be easily within the capabilities of ordinary wet open cells. It is only a (say) 4 amp or less load when running. Whatever battery technology you buy/get sold will be destroyed virtually as fast as any other if you can't keep it fully charged so with that cable run I suspect ordinary LAs would be the most cost-effective but it's your choice.

[blackrose]

I can't really see how AGM batteries will help. It's just discharge vs charge irrespective of battery technology. As Tony said you can kill any battery if you can't keep it charged. Ordinary open LAs would probably not only be the most cost-effective but all other things being equal also allow a bit more discharging providing they are charged at the correct voltage in the first place. If your absorption charge is at 14.8v for LAs (compared to 14.4v for sealed or AGMs) you get a bit more going in and can therefore take a bit more out. 

[LadyG]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Just make sure you can provide the charging voltage they require taking any cable losses into account. The reason is some (older?) types require a lower than typical alternator voltage and at least on supplier demands a charging voltage higher than that from a typical alternator. Your solar and any mains battery charger is more likely to be adjustable to suit so check.

 

FWIW 50 ah per day is not a heavy draw and should be easily within the capabilities of ordinary wet open cells. It is only a (say) 4 amp or less load when running. Whatever battery technology you buy/get sold will be destroyed virtually as fast as any other if you can't keep it fully charged so with that cable run I suspect ordinary LAs would be the most cost-effective but it's your choice.

The two bow batteries are not easily accessable.  I need to find someone who is very long and thin to change them, I am aware I have chosen a premium cost by using agms, but I decided they were probably going to outlive my boating days, whereas I would possible kill the lead acids by neglect, and be faced with changing them again, and I'd likely have to pay someone to do it. My understanding is that modern agm s charge faster than FLA, that is  a condiderable advantage in einter when charging with the engine.

 

[LadyG]

28 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I can't really see how AGM batteries will help. It's just discharge vs charge irrespective of battery technology. As Tony said you can kill any battery if you can't keep it charged. Ordinary open LAs would probably not only be the most cost-effective but all other things being equal also allow a bit more discharging providing they are charged at the correct voltage in the first place. If your absorption charge is at 14.8v for LAs (compared to 14.4v for sealed or AGMs) you get a bit more going in and can therefore take a bit more out. 

My solar controller is charging agm, and I only have agms. I see your argument about puting more in to FLA , but modern agm batteries have two claimed advantages, first you can take them lower, and second, they charge up quicker. So, in my book, that allows me to to charge my batteries with less engine usage, and have a bit more leeway in my charging regime.

I am aware that I do not have a foolproof monitoring system, I know what the numbers look like when solar has primed the batteries, ie they must be fully charged after solid weeks of sunshine. I have no other way of pumping them full of active electrons in summer. In winter, before sunrise, I check voltages, and use the engine to get back to parity when indicated. The amps going in to the batteries reduce when the engine is running, and in normal times, I would be moving the boat, and intended to pop in to a marina for overnight charging, but that has not happened.

Anyways, there is a trade off, cost of overnight in a marina, might be £120 per annum that is £600 every five years, and £600 every five years is more than I might pay in new agms!

I am fairly frugal in winter. I have given up on finding a real electrician to re-design the electrics, I am living with what I have got, even if this means buying batteries which cost twice as much as FLA, it also means I don't have to do anything till they die, which might be a long time. I bought the boat which had been on shorepower, and changed one domestic battery bank immediately. Last year the engine struggled a bit, so I put a newer, bigger battery in, now, in Year three, I am replacing the secondary domestic battery bank, they must almost certainly be agms, they are too inaccesible to be open FLA

I can't mix battery types if using a single solar controller, no way would two controllers make life easier .

I will report back the next time I have to replace batteries, assuming I outlive tbem!

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

The two bow batteries are not easily accessable.  I need to find someone who is very long and thin to change them, I am aware I have chosen a premium cost by using agms, but I decided they were probably going to outlive my boating days, whereas I would possible kill the lead acids by neglect, and be faced with changing them again, and I'd likely have to pay someone to do it. My understanding is that modern agm s charge faster than FLA, that is  a condiderable advantage in einter when charging with the engine.

 

 

It is true that starved electrolyte batteries are said to allow a higher discharge rate and will accept a higher charge rate than ordinary lead acids. Higher discharge rate is relevant for your application. The higher charge rate will appear to be an advantage BUT its almost certain that you are going to charge them at a sub-optimum voltage because of cable losses so this will extend the full recharge time. I am far from convinced that advantage will turn to to be a significant advantage.

 

I take it from the comment about the batteries outlasting your boating days that you already have plans to give up in the next 5 years or so.

 

However, as I said it's your choice and your money, just don't let marketing bullshine get in the way of a reasoned decision.

 

Questions: Re the proposed AGMs, what is their maximum charging voltage and also the recommended charging voltage. Remember some AGMs demand a lower than open cell charging voltage (maybe older types) while one supplier demands a higher voltage than can not be met from the majority of alternators.

[LadyG]

50 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

It is true that starved electrolyte batteries are said to allow a higher discharge rate and will accept a higher charge rate than ordinary lead acids. Higher discharge rate is relevant for your application. The higher charge rate will appear to be an advantage BUT its almost certain that you are going to charge them at a sub-optimum voltage because of cable losses so this will extend the full recharge time. I am far from convinced that advantage will turn to to be a significant advantage.

 

I take it from the comment about the batteries outlasting your boating days that you already have plans to give up in the next 5 years or so.

 

However, as I said it's your choice and your money, just don't let marketing bullshine get in the way of a reasoned decision.

 

Questions: Re the proposed AGMs, what is their maximum charging voltage and also the recommended charging voltage. Remember some AGMs demand a lower than open cell charging voltage (maybe older types) while one supplier demands a higher voltage than can not be met from the majority of alternators.

 

I don't actually have any idea about charging voltages, and I have no control over it, so it is a question of trial and error (shock horror). I had to give up on 'electricians',

OK, confession time, when I bought the boat, I had 'an electrician' replace one of the Chinese invertors (800amps) with a small Victron for my  phone etc.

There were two invertors side by side, and associated wires, plugs etc, so I suggested he remove the large invertor which somehow fed the washing machine which is at t'other end of boat, and plumbed in to calorifier, and which was to be used when cruising, I did not like that idea, primarily in case of fire, while I was merrily plodding along at 2.5mph, oblivious to what was happening below.

The Electrician (not) removed it, but failed to tell me it was an inverter charger, and I sold it. BUT, I later found the leaflet, and it was an inverter charger, probably wired to charge these two bow batteries. There were, and are no labels, other than those which could be identified by function anyway.

So, while I had assumed that all the batteries were charged from showerpower via a 20amp 1960's non smart car charger, at one end of the boat, in fact, there must have been two chargers, one at either end. And now there is only one, and I don't suppose it feeds all the batteries, I have little or no interest in all these things. Electricians, cost a fortune, and none of them did anything well, so I have come to the conclusion that I am better off just paying for more batteries than more electricians

The two batteries I need to replace worked OK, after all, they were not asked to do much, 'till one week this year, I decided to keep the fridge on 24/7 and let them 'get on with it', they died, as in not holding charge. I knew they were 'on the edge'. I assume that they are feeding the fridge, and if the fridge no longer works, they need to be replaced. At the moment, I think they will run the fridge, so I will have it on when the solar is pumping magic e's, and off when not needed. I could live without a fridge, but there is no need to when it is sunny and hot.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by LadyG

[Chagall]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

 

I don't actually have any idea about charging voltages, and I have no control over it, so it is a question of trial and error (shock horror). I had to give up on 'electricians',

OK, confession time, when I bought the boat, I had 'an electrician' replace one of the Chinese invertors (800amps) with a small Victron for my  phone etc.

There were two invertors side by side, and associated wires, plugs etc, so I suggested he remove the large invertor which somehow fed the washing machine which is at t'other end of boat, and plumbed in to calorifier, and which was to be used when cruising, I did not like that idea, primarily in case of fire, while I was merrily plodding along at 2.5mph, oblivious to what was happening below.

The Electrician (not) removed it, but failed to tell me it was an inverter charger, and I sold it. BUT, I later found the leaflet, and it was an inverter charger, probably wired to charge these two bow batteries. There were, and are no labels, other than those which could be identified by function anyway.

So, while I had assumed that all the batteries were charged from showerpower via a 20amp 1960's non smart car charger, at one end of the boat, in fact, there must have been two chargers, one at either end. And now there is only one, and I don't suppose it feeds all the batteries, I have little or no interest in all these things. Electricians, cost a fortune, and none of them did anything well, so I have come to the conclusion that I am better off just paying for more batteries than more electricians

The two batteries I need to replace worked OK, after all, they were not asked to do much, 'till one week this year, I decided to keep the fridge on 24/7 and let them 'get on with it', they died, as in not holding charge. I knew they were 'on the edge'. I assume that they are feeding the fridge, and if the fridge no longer works, they need to be replaced. At the moment, I think they will run the fridge, so I will have it on when the solar is pumping magic e's, and off when not needed. I could live without a fridge, but there is no need to when it is sunny and hot.

 

 

 

 

Oh dear ?  ...was it the same "not electrician" that bought the larger of the two inverters from you?   

[LadyG]

On 05/05/2021 at 13:23, NB Alnwick said:

We have been using these since the supply of cheap batteries from Vince1969 dried up about ten years back.

They are not always in stock at main suppliers but can usually be found at just over £100 each from a reputable supplier on eBay.

As we recently found, they also make excellent engine start batteries and the 'maintenance-free' attribute suits lazy boaters like me.

The full specification is:

Manufacturer: Bosch
Article number: 0 092 L40 340
Battery Capacity [Ah]: 105
Voltage: 12V
Battery type:  Lead Acid, maintenance free
Length [mm]: 330
Width [mm]: 172
Height [mm]: 238
Post type: BS Taper
Post positions: Central at both ends
Warranty:  4 years

 

£270 and out of stock! 

Presumably sealed lead acid. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

 

I don't actually have any idea about charging voltages, and I have no control over it, so it is a question of trial and error (shock horror).

 

 

If you want optimum battery life you need to know the charging voltages a particular battery type requires and there are/were two types of AGM. If you can't alter the charging parameters for your charging equipment then you really should select batteries that will be happy with the charging values you have. Trial and error is not likely to provide an optimum result.

 

I know its like finding hens teeth to prise the charging voltage data out of suppliers and manufacturers but if you don't want to risk ruining the new batteries that is what you need to do or stick to technology where those values are well known. Even ordinary lead acids have two different maximum charging/gassing voltages depending upon the plate materials. (lead antinomy or lead calcium). If you buy AGMs that have a maximum voltage of 13.8 and then charge them at 14.4 you are likely to "boil" them dry. If you get some with a required charging voltage of 14.8 and only charge them at 14.4 then although given time they should fully charge you can wave goodbye to any warrantee claim if the suppler finds out about the lower voltage.

 

And we still don't know what volt drop there is on the long charging cables although as the charging current decreases so will the volt drop so given enough charging time they should fully charge eventually.