Thoughts on a potential purchase

[olive88]

Hi everyone,

 

Apologies if this is not the 'done' thing, but I'd appreciate thoughts on this boat to purchase for CC:

 

https://www.greathaywoodboatsales.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Moonlight-Holly-Brochure-2.pdf

 

At first I thought could be a bit overpriced, but please correct me if I'm being tight!

 

I intend on doing more cosmetic updates (on whatever I buy), and with this one definitely a bathroom update, but want to make sure I'm not missing anything obvious in terms of the essentials (engine, electrics, heating)...

 

Ta!

[Alan de Enfield]

The Alde central heating is LPG (Gas) and they are very thirsty - a boat moored next to us were using between and and two cylinders PER WEEK in very cold weather (£30 per cylinder) so it is a very expensive form of heating.

 

About twice the price of heating our 5 bedroomed house.

 

See if the Solid fuel fire can also provide hot water for the Central heating.

 

They ripped out the Alde and converted the Morso to have a back boiler and provide the heat source for the CH.

 

 

The Inverter is a bit small for a Liveaboard (depending on your lifestyle) a 2kw would be more useful than an 800w.

 

 

At 20 years old your insurers may require a full survey before accepting it for cover. (some insurers ask at 20 years, some at 25 and the odd one at 30 years)

 

Going by pictures and description it is not expensive at that price.A 'real life' inspection may prove differently as photos can often miss out undesirable things (like leaking windows, smokey engine etc etc etc)

[Athy]

Welcome, Olive.

Yes, it is quite the done thing: every year, probably dozens of people seek similar advice.

The boat looks quite clean (decent paintwork. newly blacked), and has a fairly high specification (bath, washing machine). It was built by a known builder which, I think, is still in business.

It looks fairly priced, which doesn't mean that you shouldn't try a slightly lower offer.

 

Do heed Mr. de Enfield's wise words above.

[rgreg]

Regarding the Alde central heating, with the Solid Fuel stove lit in winter you will probably use it very little. The Squirrel keeps my 57ft warm throughout and it is on 24/7 over the winter months. The central heating only gets used periodically in spring and autumn when the stove isn't lit so is not a significant cost overall.

On the face of it this boat looks realistically priced.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, olive88 said:

Hi everyone,

 

Apologies if this is not the 'done' thing, but I'd appreciate thoughts on this boat to purchase for CC:

 

https://www.greathaywoodboatsales.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Moonlight-Holly-Brochure-2.pdf

 

At first I thought could be a bit overpriced, but please correct me if I'm being tight!

 

I intend on doing more cosmetic updates (on whatever I buy), and with this one definitely a bathroom update, but want to make sure I'm not missing anything obvious in terms of the essentials (engine, electrics, heating)...

 

Ta!

Welcome.

 

Thats a tidy looking boat.

 

Only two comments to make.

 

First, Alde central heating goes through gas like a pirate goes through rum, ie they consume a LOT when in use. I've experienced this as a hire boater in winter. Fortunately any gas we used was included in the hire cost. That said it was our only source of heating during a very cold spell. We didnt have a stove which this boat has. That will offset some LPG consumption.

 

Second, I'm not a fan of beds that dont extend sideways at least temporarily, I can't see if that double does or not. Otherwise the bed is pretty small for two.

 

Edit to add, - the bed width can be rectified relatively inexpensively.

Edited August 21, 2020 by The Happy Nomad

[Tracy D'arth]

Year of build or have I missed it?

 

Alde, bad news unless you have shares in Calor.

 

£39.5K to me. Chance it without a survey?

[matty40s]

If it's only just come to market, that boat will. E sold by tommorow if it looks in the flesh how it does on the pictures.

Dont hang about, get down there at opening time and be prepared to stick your neck out.... deposit subject to survey.

[rgreg]

19 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Year of build or have I missed it?

 

Alde, bad news unless you have shares in Calor.

 

£39.5K to me. Chance it without a survey?

2000.

 

[Opener]

On 21/08/2020 at 15:55, Alan de Enfield said:

The Alde central heating is LPG (Gas) and they are very thirsty - a boat moored next to us were using between and and two cylinders PER WEEK in very cold weather (£30 per cylinder) so it is a very expensive form of heating.

Seen na few adverse comments about Alde - I suspect we are far from typical users but I'm always puzzled by very critical comments.

 

2003 50ft boat - used only during the season for fairly short periods so by no means a CC.  Alde 28** Comfort series which lives in the cupboard.  Heats water via the cauliflower plus some background heating but via fin-rads so not really significant output or load.  Separate wood/coa; stove for space heating.

 

We must be on to our third spark generator in seven years but I put that down to infrequent use.  Alde goes on in the morning for about half to one hour to give stacks of water to wash / wash up or shower if turned up a bit.  Ditto, half hour later to wash dishes - ample hot water.  We probably use one or two cylinders PER YEAR so nothing like the poor experience of others.

 

So don't be put off cos it has an Alde - not all experiences are poor.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Opener said:

lde goes on in the morning for about half to one hour to give stacks of water to wash / wash up or shower if turned up a bit.  Ditto, half hour later to wash dishes - ample hot water.  We probably use one or two cylinders PER YEAR so nothing like the poor experience of others.

But when you are using it as you central heating (as out neighbour was) in cold weather they got thru between 1 and 2 cylinders per week.

 

You decided to cherry pick parts of my post but glossed over this :

 

On 21/08/2020 at 15:55, Alan de Enfield said:

See if the Solid fuel fire can also provide hot water for the Central heating.

 

[Opener]

Agreed - a different viewpoint based on a very limited set of circumstances.  Just seemed to me that many have a downer on Alde when it is not all bad.

[Richard10002]

39 minutes ago, Opener said:

Agreed - a different viewpoint based on a very limited set of circumstances.  Just seemed to me that many have a downer on Alde when it is not all bad.

We have a Truma gas warm air and water heater. It heats enough water for a wash, and washing pots all year round, but we only use the warm air for short periods to take a chill off - it uses a lot of gas.

 

If we had an Alde we would use it the same way as the Truma. 

 

Proper heating is via a Boatman stove, and the shower has a dedicated instant gas heater. 

 

 

[cuthound]

I see the boat is described as having Rockwool/Polystyrene insulation.

 

My boat was wrongly advertised as having Rockwool insulation. As I was unsure of the properties of this type of insulation, I spoke to my surveyor about it in advance of the survey.

 

He said that it was not ideal, as it can soak up moisture, particularly if it continues down to baseplate level, where it will soak up the moisture from leaks and condensation and that he would check for this.

 

He removed several sections of skirting during the survey which revealed 3M Thinsulate insulation, which stopped at floor level, and told me this was almost as effective insulation as sprayfoam, which he considered the best for a steel boat.

[Movin' on]

JD Boat Services fit out VERY practical boats and are happy to talk to you about their work so make contact and ask questions.........

 

GHBS on the other hand cant be trusted (that is based on actual experience not here-say) so double check everything they say and make sure you have a FULL INDEPENDANT survey -  and make sure the boat is actually for sale before you waste your time!

Edited August 24, 2020 by Halsey

[Tracy D'arth]

Establish who owns the boat, GHBS or a private owner, it will make a big difference to the deal and liability for any defects.

[cuthound]

49 minutes ago, Halsey said:

JD Boat Services fit out VERY practical boats and are happy to talk to you about their work so make contact and ask questions.........

 

GHBS on the other hand cant be trusted (that is based on actual experience not here-say) so double check everything they say and make sure you have a FULL INDEPENDANT survey -  and make sure the boat is actually for sale before you waste your time!

 

I've heard that said before, so when the boat I now own appeared for sale at GHBS I made an offer with some trepidation.

 

However, apart from their term & conditions stating that the deposit not being refundable unless significant defects totalling 5% or more of purchase price were found, I found them nothing else onerous and they behaviour was always professional.

 

Indeed when my surveyor found a defective combi charger/inverter which would cost less thsn 5% to replace, at my request they contacted the owner and persuaded him to reduce the agreed "subject to survey" price by the cost of supplying and fitting a new combi.

 

 

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

I've heard that said before, so when the boat I now own appeared for sale at GHBS I made an offer with some trepidation.

 

However, apart from their term & conditions stating that the deposit not being refundable unless significant defects totalling 5% or more of purchase price were found, I found them nothing else onerous and they behaviour was always professional.

 

Indeed when my surveyor found a defective combi charger/inverter which would cost less thsn 5% to replace, at my request they contacted the owner and persuaded him to reduce the agreed "subject to survey" price by the cost of supplying and fitting a new combi.

 

 

Sounds a bit like buying from Currys - mostly it's OK but, when it isn't, you're screwed  

[olive88]

Thanks for the advice everyone, here's an update..

 

When an saw her, she was lovely and as photos depicted. Looked to have been kept up to a very high standard w sparkling engine bay, no huge rusty bits, recent blacking etc.

 

Put in an offer which was accepted and paid my deposit. Only to find out (when doing my homework on surveyors) that she had been out for survey (not cruising as I was led to believe) last week. From what I've managed to gather via the broker a survey was commissioned, welding a foot above the base plate was conducted but the purchase was not completed. Now the surveyor who by chance informed me of this told me the repairs were well done and the boat was fine, and I've asked for photos of the repairs but obviously dont have access to the survey and only the sellers word there were no other issues. Broker also says they had no idea this had taken place.

 

My conundrum is... lose my deposit because I've got uncomfortable w the whole thing or get a new survey (as I would have anyway) and deal w what comes up knowing I can get my deposit (but not survey and lifting costs) if there are massive issues.

 

Pretty intimidating as a total newbie so would value any advice!

[Tracy D'arth]

Has a misrepresentation taken place?  If you ask the actual seller the point blank question and the answer is untrue then it is misrepresentation.

Which is why I asked who owns the boat.

If it is the person  who is pretending to be a broker, then he is duty bound to tell you, then any discrepancies in the sale come under the Consumer Sales act.

 

Who misrepresented that the boat was out cruising when it was out of the water being surveyed?

[olive88]

@Tracy D'arth

 

I was told by the broker it was out cruising. I was told by the broker there was no recent survey. I did not ask the seller these questions.

 

The broker says they were unaware this was the case, and not to sound naive but I'm inclined to believe them given the reaction I got when I let them know. I had no doubt that the seller owns the boat, is there a way to check this now given the circumstances?

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, olive88 said:

@Tracy D'arth

 

I was told by the broker it was out cruising. I was told by the broker there was no recent survey. I did not ask the seller these questions.

 

The broker says they were unaware this was the case, and not to sound naive but I'm inclined to believe them given the reaction I got when I let them know. I had no doubt that the seller owns the boat, is there a way to check this now given the circumstances?

 

 

Ask them both the direct question, "do you or the company own the boat"?

[olive88]

Will do- assuming its worth pursuing further at this point?

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, olive88 said:

@Tracy D'arth

 

I was told by the broker it was out cruising. I was told by the broker there was no recent survey. I did not ask the seller these questions.

 

The broker says they were unaware this was the case, and not to sound naive but I'm inclined to believe them given the reaction I got when I let them know. I had no doubt that the seller owns the boat, is there a way to check this now given the circumstances?

 

 

 

Legally the seller is not required to tell you of any faults,or even tell you the truth, the Broker is required to answer any specific questions truthfully (to the best of his knowledge)

 

If you but thru a broker you have absolutely no warranty and no 'come back', if you buy FROM a broker who owns the boat there is a whole raft of legislation that protects you.

 

Notes from the RYA on buying a boat :

 

Broker’s ‘Legal Liability To Disclose Information’

In the RYA’s view, there is no general legal obligation on either Seller or broker to disclose the existence of defects to a prospective Buyer, unless, of course, they are asked a specific question, which is why a survey is essential.

Nevertheless the RYA, the BMF and the ABYA believe that it is good practice for a broker to fairly represent a boat being offered for sale and should therefore disclose any defects made know to them by the Seller.

A standard disclaimer will be included in the brokers Agreement with the Seller, the purpose of which is to protect a broker against complaints by a Buyer that the broker’s published particulars of a boat are wrong, in circumstances where the broker has relied on the Seller’s information when writing those particulars

Edited August 27, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[matty40s]

As they had not told the broker it needs overplating, but knowing would walk away if worried, and the broker should refund your deposit as the boat was not advertised/sold honestly and correctly.

If you can see detail of survey, and feel happy enough that your surveyor thinks the work is sound, then reduce your offer accordingly.

[olive88]

Have just done more digging and seen that in fact the boat was first listed by brokerage on apollo duck back at the beginning of June. Seems unlikely the brokerage would therefore not have known about previous survey and interested buyers. Whether or not they legally have to disclose that, it's not sitting right with me that when asked directly if there was a recent survey the answer was no.

 

Even if the boat seems sound now very unsure about continuing w the purchase.