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Nearly New Boats, Snagging and Surveys


Blue Knight

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40 minutes ago, matty40s said:

That could be WiltshireWanderer off here.

 

Out of interest, I've checked the members' list and we have no member of that name.

Or do you mean that that's the name of her boat?

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22 hours ago, Lady C said:

Whether the boats were loaded or not may have had a bearing on how they travelled.

Even unladen ( our butty was converted) we only breasted up on long sets of locks, and always ran the butty on the towpath side.

Mostly we towed on cross straps. The long line really only got used on the Paddington arm and the Tring summit, where you didn’t need a lock wheeler.

Above Berko, where the grand union becomes narrow, breasting up became impossible except for the shortest pounds.

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1 hour ago, wiltshirewonderer said:

Definitely not me! I'm a bloke and bald. I know who you are probably talking about though ?. No wondering for me at the moment, my current boats engine is in pieces whilst parts are sourced for a top end rebuild.

So we are all left wondering where she has wandered then. 

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Hi All,

 

A quick update:  We've decided to give up on the whole WB-thing and, instead, we are now favouring a NB purchase due to the extensive access it will give us to the C&RT network.

 

We've already started looking at NBs in the £40-50K price bracket but, that being said, we've also been invited to a viewing weekend for the latest new Patching Jones NB at Lyons boatyard near Birmingham. The quality of the fit-out on the P-J web page looks fantastic.

 

Just three questions for you all if I may please:

 

1.  Do these guys build good boats? (P-J produce a boat every 4-months from what I gather).

 

2.  If we were ever to buy a brand new NB then would we still instruct a full survey on the boat?

 

3.  What length of time does a new boat warranty last for these days and does the builder/converter warrant every component of the fit-out and shell?

 

Sorry for the continuous questions,

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

 

Edited by Blue Knight
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9 minutes ago, Blue Knight said:

Hi All,

 

A quick update:  We've decided to give up on the whole WB-thing and, instead, we are now favouring a NB purchase due to the extensive access it will give us to the C&RT network.

 

We've already started looking at NBs in the £40-50K price bracket but, that being said, we've also been invited to a viewing weekend for the latest new Patching Jones NB at Lyons boatyard near Birmingham. The quality of the fit-out on the P-J web page looks fantastic.

 

Just three questions for you all if I may please:

 

1.  Do these guys build good boats? (P-J produce a boat every 4-months from what I gather).

 

2.  If we were ever to buy a brand new NB then would we still instruct a full survey on the boat?

 

3.  What length of time does a new boat warranty last for these days and does the builder/converter warrant every component of the fit-out and shell?

 

Sorry for the continuous questions,

 

Regards,

 

Andrew

 

Past experience suggests that it is so easy for boat builders/fitter to do a Phoenix when things go seriously wrong maybe its best to assume any warrantee that works is a bonus.

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2 hours ago, Blue Knight said:

2.  If we were ever to buy a brand new NB then would we still instruct a full survey on the boat?

 

3.  What length of time does a new boat warranty last for these days and does the builder/converter warrant every component of the fit-out and shell?

If you buy a brand new boat, you will have handed over most/all of the money before there is a complete boat to survey so, if you do have a survey, you have to hope that the builder is honourable and puts right anything that might be wrong/not quite right. Alternatively, the survey will tell you what might need doing, and you can attend to it yourself if the builder doesn't sort it.

 

I second what Tony said about the value of a warranty.

 

My experience is in property - houses and flats. Getting a builder, big or small, to fix snags that they don't want to is nigh on impossible. I've seen a few stories here where similar things have happened with boats.

 

It's difficult to know what is best... lots of new boats are bought with little/no issues. My preference is second hand with a survey - at least you don't hand over any/much money before survey, you have an opportunity to haggle or walk away and, provided the surveyor is good, you know what you're dealing with.

 

Presumably, you would be spending a lot more than £40,000 to £50,000 on a new boat?

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Boat building is a cottage industry on small profit margins, don't expect a proper waranty, if you call the builder back too many times the profit margin goes so they likely either just ignore you or go bankrupt, they need to get on and build the next boat to keep the cash flowing.

 

A boat should be built to a reasonable standard for a reasonably price, but you can't expect perfection on a one off hand built item.

 

.................Dave

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1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

If you buy a brand new boat, you will have handed over most/all of the money before there is a complete boat to survey so, if you do have a survey, you have to hope that the builder is honourable and puts right anything that might be wrong/not quite right. Alternatively, the survey will tell you what might need doing, and you can attend to it yourself if the builder doesn't sort it.

 

Or you could engage a surveyor beforehand to make periodic checks as the build progresses. But expect to pay for rather more of his time than a normal single survey visit.

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2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I think this is good advice. The OP certainly does not know what he wants .....given that a week ago he was looking at a widebeam and now a narrowbeam. That is quite a change of direction. For someone who doesnt have the knowledge of what is important in a canal boat, I think it is pointless getting a new one. Not that many on here will have bought a new boat recently ...but we have. We got ours end of June.

The buying excercise was interesting. We went to  a builder that does at least 10 a year. We seemed to be almost unique in knowing what we wanted ....after first buying a £40-50K boat 3 years ago. Obviously most of their customors have little knowledge of canal boats. We went to New and Used who sell Collingwood and Aqualine. They are chalk and cheese. Our Aqualine had 6 things on the snagging list of which most have been sorted but one important thing left. They will do that otherwise they could get a lot of bad press. There was a huge difference in quality between the Collinwood and Aqualine (and price) and I would hate to imagine what the snagging list was on the Collingwood. I guess they can get away with a long snagging list to someone new to the canals.

Someone new to the canals would certainly waste money on the 'extras' which the individual has to choose. Without experience you would end up with choices that just dont work for the individual. An example on ours was the pump out tank. The one supplied as normal is just too small for a full time couple living aboard in a covid environment. I had to ask if they did a bigger one (which they did) and that was then an extra. It wasnt listed on the the 'extras'. Had I not known the sizes and how quickly you fill them, then we would have been pumping out every week! This is the 2nd new boat we have bought. The previous one was a sailing yacht (expensive) but we also had years experience owning a 2nd hand one before so know what we were ordering. That had about 20 things on the snagging list so I knew what to specify when buying this time. I think it is impossible for someone new to all of this to buy a narrowboat (or fat boat) and get what they a) want and b) really need without owning a used boat first. There are so many things that the buyer will not know about to make a decision.

We did not get a survey done on ours on delivery as anything major should be picked up by the seller - hence you need to choose a company that is not likely to go under....do you financial due dilligence properly! We chose Aqualine as they could deliver a boat in 14 weeks (ordered end Feb, delivered 20th June)....as all they build these day is fat boats and they had a slot in the factory to put a narrow boat between the fat ones! That minimised the risk of cash being tied up. I am experienced enough to spot all the 'non' major items - which we did in the first few days - and the werent many of them.

Advice to the OP...buy a used boat first and dont assume you know what you want until you see (in the flesh) a number of boats. Your views of what you want will change.......as shown by your decision not to go with a fat boat.

 

 

 

This^^^^^^^ best advice 

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1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

I think this is good advice. .................. Not that many on here will have bought a new boat recently ...but we have. We got ours end of June.

The buying exercise was interesting. We went to  a builder that does at least 10 a year. We seemed to be almost unique in knowing what we wanted ....after first buying a £40-50K boat 3 years ago. Obviously most of their customers have little knowledge of canal boats.

......................

.....................

 

Advice to the OP...buy a used boat first and dont assume you know what you want until you see (in the flesh) a number of boats. Your views of what you want will change.......as shown by your decision not to go with a fat boat.

 

 

 

I will third this advice for exactly the same reasons. We have a boat in build after spending many years with a second hand boat. We chose a builder and provided detailed information pack of what we want, layout, equipment spec etc. etc. The builder has stated that they have never received such a good up front pack of information, Without years of experience the new boat build would have been more hit and miss, or going with the norm for the builder.

Edited by PeterF
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14 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

If you buy a brand new boat, you will have handed over most/all of the money before there is a complete boat to survey so, if you do have a survey, you have to hope that the builder is honourable and puts right anything that might be wrong/not quite right. Alternatively, the survey will tell you what might need doing, and you can attend to it yourself if the builder doesn't sort it.

 

I second what Tony said about the value of a warranty.

 

My experience is in property - houses and flats. Getting a builder, big or small, to fix snags that they don't want to is nigh on impossible. I've seen a few stories here where similar things have happened with boats.

 

It's difficult to know what is best... lots of new boats are bought with little/no issues. My preference is second hand with a survey - at least you don't hand over any/much money before survey, you have an opportunity to haggle or walk away and, provided the surveyor is good, you know what you're dealing with.

 

Presumably, you would be spending a lot more than £40,000 to £50,000 on a new boat?

Richard,

 

Many thanks for the detailed response. In this instance the Patching-Jones boat has already been finished and is ready for its open day this weekend in Birmingham. There are seven viewings booked so far - we haven't confirmed our attendance, yet.

 

That said, Nicky and I have only seen a couple of older boats to date so when the builder/fitter asked if we wanted to attend his open day then I thought it would be a good idea as it would help highlight the difference between a new boat costing £89,000, compared to that of a 19-year old boat costing £45,000 and needing some work (or in one other example a 11-year old boat costing £50,000). 

 

In the little motorhome bubble we come from a price tag of £89,000 for a new van only buys a middle of the road foreign motorhome; nothing big, special or sophisticated. Therefore, when I saw the price tag of £89,000 then my first impression was that the advertisers had obviously missed a '1' off the figure and it should read £189,000 instead.  How wrong was I eh - but pleasantly surprised.

 

If anything I want to go for the experience but knowing about the survey system first is always useful in my book.

 

Thanks again for the note.

 

Andrew

 

Edited by Blue Knight
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1 hour ago, Blue Knight said:

hen I thought it would be a good idea as it would help highlight the difference between a new boat costing £89,000, compared to that of a 19-year old boat costing £45,000

Ok, if you are thinking of a 55ft new boat for £89K, it doesnt sound like it is anywhere near a top of the range boat. Take yourself down to Hanbury wharf (Droitwich - 30 mins south of Birmingham) and look at a new Collingwood £85K and a new Aqualine £120K (both prices before addition of extras .....which you will need). There is a huge difference in quality. If you want a quality new boat I dont think you will find a one for under £120K with all the extras. Extras are likely to put on £20-30k in cost but you should be able to negotiate. "oh, you want a 3KVA combi box....that will be another £1500"......"Oh, and you want a hospital silencer, that will be another £400", etc

Try and look at more £40-50K boats before you get sucked into the 'new build'. You should get a quality 20 year old boat for that budget. I would prefer a quality £40-50K old boat to a brand new collingwood.

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When I bought our current boat, which has had ‘snagging’ since 1937 I enquired about the cost of a replica shell, to a similar speck, but welded not rivetted.

Essentially a bare shell was the same price as the whole of the boat. ( but of course it was not a variety of ages and conditions.)

The depreciation on a new boat is phenomenal because most are custom built. 

Better to buy a generic cheapish 4 year old boat, and spend your evenings planning your dream boat once you have it.

After 40 years around the cut I have met so many who threw £££ into the cut, and then moved off pronto.

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If I were buying a new boat I would want a contract similar to a building one whereby 2 1/2 or 5 % of the cost is retained for 12months and only paid when snagging and defects are completed. I somehow don't think many builders would like this idea!! Effectively what you are withholding is their profit.

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36 minutes ago, Richard T said:

If I were buying a new boat I would want a contract similar to a building one whereby 2 1/2 or 5 % of the cost is retained for 12months and only paid when snagging and defects are completed. I somehow don't think many builders would like this idea!! Effectively what you are withholding is their profit.

Their would be no boat builders left! 

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I've had a look at the Patching-Jones website & FB page. I may be mistaken but I think he is a fitter who had historically bought secondhand boats and refurbished them to a seemingly pretty decent standard. The boat that @Blue Knight is looking at is smart and well equipped; a new Mike Christian hull from what I've read. If I had been able to spend £90k on my first boat, and was confident it had my preferred layout, I would certainly have been tempted by this ready-to-go beaut! 

From FB:

"£89,000
Brand new just completed 2020 57ft patchingjones canalboat. From all past boats i've created, I've combined the best features together to create what I believe is the perfect canalboat.
Many special features, with the idea to make life as spacious and easy as possible on the vessel, keeping up with modern trends. Ready to be named by new owner.

Moored for viewings for ease of access at Lyons boatyard, birmingham. 
(Just to note this is nothing to do with Lyons boatyard, they've not carried out any work, all work has been carried out and completed by Patching-Jones)

Specifications
57ft cruiser stern
Canalline 38hp engine
X4 110amp leisure battery
X1 starter battery
Stainless steel water tank
Sterling pro inverter charger 2kw
Surecal twin coil calorifier
Eberspacher diesel central heating unit
X2 100w lay flat solar panels
Victron solar charger regulator
Galvanic isolator 
Thetford LPG 1/2 caprice cooker grill/oven 4 ring hob.
LEC 12v fridge freezer under counter
Utility sink for every need.
Soft close kitchen doors/drawers/bin and towel rail. Ample storage space.
Shoreline jack in point.
Morso eco log burner
X3 double skin slim line radiators 1m x 60cm
Bathroom chrome towel radiator 1200cm x 60cm
New modelThetford porta loo, pull out from under sink.
Walk in shower 1200x 700
X9 porthole windows
X1 13kg propane gas bottle
Side hatch in lounge
Small double side lifting ottoman bed. 
Magnetic blinds. 
X6 AC usb points
X4 DC usb points 
X1 dc power point
X17 AC power sockets
X21 4w LED ceiling lights
Maxview 12v aerial booster
X2 12v control panels 
AC distribution control box
12v HD DVD 24" TV
X20 runway lights
Fixed 2 berth
Spray painted
Place for washer/dryer machine all plumbed and electric point installed if required.
Hot water for taps comes from eberspacher or engine.
Central heating from eberspacher only.
LED headlight
LED stainless steel navigation lights.
X4 rubber fenders
X2 fire extinguishers
X1 fire blanket
X2 fire/gas alarms
X1 windless
X2 mooring pegs.
X3 mooring lines

Edited by MrsM
And yes I am very jealous ?
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9 minutes ago, MrsM said:

I've had a look at the Patching-Jones website & FB page. I may be mistaken but I think he is a fitter who had historically bought secondhand boats and refurbished them to a seemingly pretty decent standard. The boat that @Blue Knight is looking at is smart and well equipped; a new Mike Christian hull from what I've read. If I had been able to spend £90k on my first boat, and was confident it had my preferred layout, I would certainly have been tempted by this ready-to-go beaut! 

From FB:

"£89,000
Brand new just completed 2020 57ft patchingjones canalboat. From all past boats i've created, I've combined the best features together to create what I believe is the perfect canalboat.
Many special features, with the idea to make life as spacious and easy as possible on the vessel, keeping up with modern trends. Ready to be named by new owner.

Moored for viewings for ease of access at Lyons boatyard, birmingham. 
(Just to note this is nothing to do with Lyons boatyard, they've not carried out any work, all work has been carried out and completed by Patching-Jones)

Specifications
57ft cruiser stern
Canalline 38hp engine
X4 110amp leisure battery
X1 starter battery
Stainless steel water tank
Sterling pro inverter charger 2kw
Surecal twin coil calorifier
Eberspacher diesel central heating unit
X2 100w lay flat solar panels
Victron solar charger regulator
Galvanic isolator 
Thetford LPG 1/2 caprice cooker grill/oven 4 ring hob.
LEC 12v fridge freezer under counter
Utility sink for every need.
Soft close kitchen doors/drawers/bin and towel rail. Ample storage space.
Shoreline jack in point.
Morso eco log burner
X3 double skin slim line radiators 1m x 60cm
Bathroom chrome towel radiator 1200cm x 60cm
New modelThetford porta loo, pull out from under sink.
Walk in shower 1200x 700
X9 porthole windows
X1 13kg propane gas bottle
Side hatch in lounge
Small double side lifting ottoman bed. 
Magnetic blinds. 
X6 AC usb points
X4 DC usb points 
X1 dc power point
X17 AC power sockets
X21 4w LED ceiling lights
Maxview 12v aerial booster
X2 12v control panels 
AC distribution control box
12v HD DVD 24" TV
X20 runway lights
Fixed 2 berth
Spray painted
Place for washer/dryer machine all plumbed and electric point installed if required.
Hot water for taps comes from eberspacher or engine.
Central heating from eberspacher only.
LED headlight
LED stainless steel navigation lights.
X4 rubber fenders
X2 fire extinguishers
X1 fire blanket
X2 fire/gas alarms
X1 windless
X2 mooring pegs.
X3 mooring lines

Seems very nice, Tyler Wilson shell and well fitted out, as long as you can get on with the fitout no issues really.

I think I if I had the money would purchase new, however it would always be a widebeam as I cant cope with living in a corridor, having done it for 6 years  at the start of my boating life 

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