The Union Flag

[Athy]

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

How do you feel about "off of"?    Or even "gotten off of"

 

I think "off of" dates back quite a way in common Southern parlance: !I go' i' off of 'im for a fiver". Regional variations often provide the jewels of our language, as well a guarding against the whole nation speaking "estuary English", and so I would be wary of condemning it.

[WotEver]

47 minutes ago, Athy said:

I think "off of" dates back quite a way in common Southern parlance: !I go' i' off of 'im for a fiver". Regional variations often provide the jewels of our language, as well a guarding against the whole nation speaking "estuary English", and so I would be wary of condemning it.

Yeah, I had a few school mates who talked like that.  I do recall going home one day and asking "Mummy, what does 'take a butchers' mean?"

[Athy]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yeah, I had a few school mates who talked like that.  I do recall going home one day and asking "Mummy, what does 'take a butchers' mean?"

I assume that you had not yet reached Nuneaton at that time.

[WotEver]

Just now, Athy said:

I assume that you had not yet reached Nuneaton at that time.

[Mac of Cygnet]

7 hours ago, Athy said:

No apology needed.

I like "outwith" - evidently a reversible word, as it is (I presume) synonymous with "without". I remember singing "There is a green hill far away, without a city wall" at Sunday School and wondering why a green hill should have a city wall.

 

'Outwith' is synonymous with 'without'  only in the sense. you quote, meaning 'outside'.   I used it without (!) thinking - it is the common form in Scotland.

[Mike Todd]

22 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

Widely used north of the border, to mean "beyond" or "outside" - eg "outwith the scope of the legislation". 

 

 

And just south of the Border - I learnt it when living/working on Tyneside.

[JCO]

"Door kept locked outwith office hours" (owtte) - seen on a ground-floor entrance to Prince's Quay car park, Hull, a few years ago.

[Athy]

40 minutes ago, JCO said:

"Door kept locked outwith office hours" (owtte) - seen on a ground-floor entrance to Prince's Quay car park, Hull, a few years ago.

Interesting - so in use further South than we suspected. What did the "owtte" mean?

[JCO]

Or words to that effect - I wasn't sure if I had remembered the wording accurately, outwith the "outwith".

[Jerra]

2 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

And just south of the Border - I learnt it when living/working on Tyneside.

Strangely not common on the western side, can't say I have ever heard it used.   Strangely as we are much nearer Scotland than Tyneside is.

[Athy]

1 hour ago, JCO said:

Or words to that effect - ".

Ah, O.K. I thought perhaps it was an utterance by a 16th century cricket umpire.

[JCO]

Similar to my thoughts Mr Athy. When I first saw it on my GCSE Physics paper markscheme, I thought it had leaked across from the EngLit (Chaucer) markscheme.

[Athy]

2 hours ago, JCO said:

Similar to my thoughts Mr Athy. When I first saw it on my GCSE Physics paper markscheme, I thought it had leaked across from the EngLit (Chaucer) markscheme.

So you thought you'd try it out on us lot.huh? No wonder our grades are lower than predicted.

[Ronaldo47]

The state flag of Hawaii has the Union Jack in its top left-hand corner, despite being  US state. 

[LadyG]

On 16/08/2020 at 13:28, Athy said:

....while when I was growing up in Leicestershire I heard "without" used in the sense of "unless". The English language is wonderful, if not always immediately comprehensible.

I think that the word can be 'tonal' ie different emphasis will alter the meaning [vietnamese, for example, is a tonal language]

[Athy]

3 hours ago, LadyG said:

I think that the word can be 'tonal' ie different emphasis will alter the meaning [vietnamese, for example, is a tonal language]

English seems to be becoming less so. For example, I have noticed recently on the T.V. news that newsreaders are increasingly unable to distinguish between "INcrease" (noun) and "inCREASE" (verb), and use the two interchangeably.

[Bee]

Making nouns into verbs, 'He medalled' as in he won a race and got a medal Grrrrr. 'Parenting skills' even more Grrrrr. Horrible, OK, these are easy examples and I'm just picking the low hanging fruit but ..... Oh dear, poor old English language.

[Athy]

2 minutes ago, Bee said:

Making nouns into verbs, 'He medalled' as in he won a race and got a medal Grrrrr.

 

Absolutely. They shouldn't have meddled with the word.

 

However, whenever I growl about making nouns into verbs, Mrs. Athy points out that we've always buttered our bread. Feminine logic can be so irksome at times.

[Machpoint005]

My current brain fryer is the verb "shop" used transitively.

It always used to need a "for".

[Athy]

25 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

My current brain fryer is the verb "shop" used transitively.

It always used to need a "for".

It has long had a transitive meaning, something like "hand over to the authorities", as in "I was nicking stationery from work but the bloke at the next desk shopped me to the boss".

[The Welsh Cruiser]

'I'm Headed to work' Ermm heading is what I say, is grammatically correct and I steadfastly refuse to be drawn in by this Americanism.

 

'They done well' This seemed to originate in football. Such was the widespread usage of this within the sport that even the otherwise articulate Arsene Wenger was heard saying, after a short pause for contemplation: 'The boys done well'. It seems widespread now, especially in the south of England, and in Scotland.  

 

 

[Machpoint005]

31 minutes ago, Athy said:

It has long had a transitive meaning, something like "hand over to the authorities", as in "I was nicking stationery from work but the bloke at the next desk shopped me to the boss".

 

Indeed, but shop verb (1) is intransitive. Or, rather, it always was. I object to being exhorted to "shop groceries" when they actually want me to shop FOR groceries.  

21 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

'I'm Headed to work' Ermm heading is what I say, is grammatically correct and I steadfastly refuse to be drawn in by this Americanism.

 

'They done well' This seemed to originate in football. Such was the widespread usage of this within the sport that even the otherwise articulate Arsene Wenger was heard saying, after a short pause for contemplation: 'The boys done well'. It seems widespread now, especially in the south of England, and in Scotland.  

 

 

 

Now? It was widespread sixty years ago, long before professional footballers were routinely asked for their opinions.

[The Welsh Cruiser]

3 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

  

 

Now? It was widespread sixty years ago, long before professional footballers were routinely asked for their opinions.

Oh right, has there been no growth in it all would you think? I never heard it when I was younger. Suburbs of Manchester, not especially posh.  

[robtheplod]

I'm pleasantly surprised people were allowed to fly the flag in these dark times! 

[Bee]

36 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

'I'm Headed to work' Ermm heading is what I say, is grammatically correct and I steadfastly refuse to be drawn in by this Americanism.

 

'They done well' This seemed to originate in football. Such was the widespread usage of this within the sport that even the otherwise articulate Arsene Wenger was heard saying, after a short pause for contemplation: 'The boys done well'. It seems widespread now, especially in the south of England, and in Scotland.  

 

 

Or, maybe even worse ' the boy done good'. And another vote for 'Gotten',  horrible word but I think it is an old English version of 'Got' that the Americans still use not having learnt any better. (And just for pedants it seems to be acceptable to start sentences with 'And' these days!)

Edited August 28, 2020 by Bee