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Boatersdad

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Sorry if this has been covered before but can I attach a bubble tester inside my gas locker by drilling and tapping through the locker wall, to the outside of the boat or do I need some kind of weld on bracket. If using the drill and tap method the hole would be on the same side as the locker drain hole if that makes a difference 

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8 minutes ago, Boatersdad said:

Sorry if this has been covered before but can I attach a bubble tester inside my gas locker by drilling and tapping through the locker wall, to the outside of the boat or do I need some kind of weld on bracket. If using the drill and tap method the hole would be on the same side as the locker drain hole if that makes a difference 

Any holes you drill MUST be higher than the valve on the gas cylinder.

 

The sides of every cylinder locker must extend at least up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or other high‐pressure components where these are higher. Up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or other high‐pressure components where these are higher, the bottom, sides, and seams of every cylinder locker must be free of any:

• holes, e.g. caused by drilling, rust or cutting; or ,

• cracks, splits or de‐laminations; or,

• missing or damaged welds at seams; or,

• other signs of damage or deterioration… …. that can be determined by visual examination to penetrate the locker to the interior of the vessel. Cylinder locker bottoms, sides and seams covered by this check must not rely upon glue or sealant to prevent any leaked LPG from entering the interior of the vessel.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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10 minutes ago, Boatersdad said:

Sorry if this has been covered before but can I attach a bubble tester inside my gas locker by drilling and tapping through the locker wall, to the outside of the boat or do I need some kind of weld on bracket. If using the drill and tap method the hole would be on the same side as the locker drain hole if that makes a difference 

I think it woud be fine, provided that  any leaked LPG clearly can't enter the interior of the vessel.  If you got a really pedantic BSS examiner they might quibble but you're best off not using one of those anyway.  IMHO.

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7 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

Is a bubble tester necessary? My BSS examiners have always used a manometer connected to a test point near the gas hob.

Most BSS examiners cannot (are not allowed to) use the manometer on Liveaboard boats. They must be gas-safe registered, or you employ a gas safe registered engineer to come and do the manometer test whilst the BSS examiner watches him.

 

From the BSS :

 

 

Carrying out 'work on the gas system of boats used primarily for residential or domestic purposes fall within scope of a piece of UK legislation known as the Gas Safety [Installation and Use] Regulations (GSIUR).

As such, the law demands that anyone contracted to 'work' on the LPG system of a boat in scope must be (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered.

As the definition of 'work' covers the removal and replacement of a screw nipple on a gas test point, the scope of the GSIUR includes carrying out BSS LPG tightness test.

Therefore, on a boat in scope of GSIUR, examiners who are not Gas Safe registered can only complete check 7.12.2 (confirming gas tightness) by either:

  • undertaking a gas tightness test using a bubble tester where fitted and correctly located; or,
  • observing the tightness test conducted by a (LPG boats-competent) Gas Safe registered installer

Where a BSS Examiner is also Gas Safe registered is undertaking a BSS Examination of a boat in scope of GSIUR such as if it is a boat used mainly for domestic/residential purposes, the Examiner could potentially identify safety-related LPG issues beyond the extent of the BSS Requirements. In doing so, they may feel duty-bound under their Gas Safe registration to report and discuss the additional issues.

 

Does a Bubble Tester do away with the need for a Gas Safe registered engineer testing the gas system on residential boats?

Yes, because any BSS Examiner can check for leaks using a fully functioning and appropriately located bubble tester. It is the case however that there is no BSS requirement for a bubble tester and so fitting one is matter of boat owner choice.

Note that all other types of gas work, such as adding or replacing an appliance, needs to be conducted by a Gas Safe registered engineer with the LPG boat competence listed on his/her identity card.

 

Is it recommended that boat owners fit a bubble tester?

Yes, fitting a bubble tester in the LPG cylinder locker is strongly recommended because it allows owners to check for leaks themselves and so enjoy piece of mind in between BSS Examinations. It is very important that fitting bubble testers on residential boats (and private leisure boats) is done by a LPG boat-competent Gas Safe registered engineer.

This is because the bubble tester must be correctly located and oriented, and for large volume LPG systems, the engineer may need to install a bypass arrangement to allow gas to flow past the bubble tester when it is not being used.

 

Are there any other alternatives to allow non Gas Safe registered BSS Examiners to check residential boat gas systems?

Unfortunately there are only two methods that can be used to check for gas leaks on boats (manometer leak check and bubble tester check). The only other alternative is for the non-Gas Safe registered BSS Examiner to observe a manometer leak check conducted by a LPG boat-competent Gas Safe registered engineer.

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A BSC examiner [non gas] who had previously passed my [non compliant] boat insisted I must have a bubble tester.

I got a GasSafe examiner [Richard Free],, he sorted the non compliance, and no bubble tester, presumably 'cos had the required equipment and skills.

£100 for gas work, £160 for Certificate, time spent 3.5+ hours, thorough, knows what he is doing, esp with gas.

A bubble tester is not continually monitored, so imho is useless, a false sense of security and extra joints.

Remember the Services yacht with all the gear which blew up when ignition turned on............

Keep it simple.

Use leak testing solution when changing cylnders, check gas hose/regulator/ pipes/burners. Tight joints save lives.

Edited by LadyG
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7 hours ago, LadyG said:

A BSC examiner [non gas] who had previously passed my [non compliant] boat insisted I must have a bubble tester.

 

Yes, because it's an offence for him to do a manometer test on a liveaboard boat if he's not Gas Safe registered for LPG on boats.

 

With a bubble tester correctly installed, any BSS inspector can do your BSS, and you can test your own system whenever you like.  I do it when swapping a gas bottle over.

 

Without one, you are restricting your choice of BSS inspectors to only those who are also Gas Safe registered.  

 

For a leisure boat, the non-registered BSS chap can do a manometer test, but a liveaboard comes under different rules (GSIUR).

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15 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Yes, because it's an offence for him to do a manometer test on a liveaboard boat if he's not Gas Safe registered for LPG on boats.

 

With a bubble tester correctly installed, any BSS inspector can do your BSS, and you can test your own system whenever you like.  I do it when swapping a gas bottle over.

 

Without one, you are restricting your choice of BSS inspectors to only those who are also Gas Safe registered.  

 

For a leisure boat, the non-registered BSS chap can do a manometer test, but a liveaboard comes under different rules (GSIUR).

I know the [ imho illogical ] BSS ruling about liveaboards, having found that info on here, but not from the previous BSS examiner and certifier.

I was never going to ask the guy who issued the original  Certificate on a non compliant installation to earn more money. I do require that my boat is as safe as I can make it without being OCD.

I don't see any difference between liveaboard/non liveaboard where safety is concerned: if gas leaks, a liveaboard is more likely to notice than anyone else imho.

Edited by LadyG
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1 minute ago, LadyG said:

I know the [ imho illogical ] BSS ruling about liveaboards, having found that info on here.

I was never going to ask the guy who issued the original  Certificate on a non compliant installation, I do require that my boat is safe.

I don't see any difference between liveaboard/non liveaboard where safety is concerned: if gas leaks, a liveaboard is more likely to notice than anyone else imho.

 

I agree, it's another example of the law being an ass!

 

I still recommend having a bubble tester for any boat regardless of use.

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On 13/08/2020 at 17:29, Boatersdad said:

Sorry if this has been covered before but can I attach a bubble tester inside my gas locker by drilling and tapping through the locker wall, to the outside of the boat or do I need some kind of weld on bracket. If using the drill and tap method the hole would be on the same side as the locker drain hole if that makes a difference 

Bit late to this but you don’t have to weld a bracket. A short length of wood batten attached with Marineflex will do - then screw the bubble tester to that. 

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36 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I agree, it's another example of the law being an ass!

 

I still recommend having a bubble tester for any boat regardless of use.

My GasSafe examiner was quite clear when differentiating [sp] twixt BSS reqirements and his own recommendations, indeed he stated that if I wanted the connection twixt cooker and gas supply replicated, I would have to find someone else to do the work as he would only change it according to manufacturer instructions. The armoured hose type fitting prevents inspection of the supply hose, it had been like that for three/four BSS Certifications.

PS Personally I don't want a bubble tester in a busy gas locker, I have a very good sense of smell.

Ideally there should be nothing else in the gas locker,  mea culpa.

Edited by LadyG
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Just now, LadyG said:

My GasSafe examiner was quite clear when differentiating [sp] twixt BSS reqirements and his own recommendations, indeed he stated that if I wanted the connection twixt cooker and gas supply replicated, I would have to find someone else to do the work as he would change it according to manufacturer instructions.

 

Do you mean the GSIUR and the BSS regulations contradict each other, or is your cooker not correctly installed?

 

It's a shame @Mike the Boilermanstopped posting as he was always informative on these topics.

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8 hours ago, LadyG said:

A bubble tester is not continually monitored, so imho is useless, a false sense of security and extra joints.

 

the only way the boat-owner can check if his system is leaking is by routinely checking the bubble tester.

 

what on earth do you mean by 'continually monitored'?  are you suggesting to new boat-owners that there is some magic method of continually monitoring you gas system for leaks?

 

..............................  of course if your week is so busy that you can't afford the time to check regularly then perhaps you should stay away from water, gas, and other potentially hazardous environments.

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2 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

the only way the boat-owner can check if his system is leaking is by routinely checking the bubble tester.

 

what on earth do you mean by 'continually monitored'?  are you suggesting to new boat-owners that there is some magic method of continually monitoring you gas system for leaks?

 

..............................  of course if your week is so busy that you can't afford the time to check regularly then perhaps you should stay away from water, gas, and other potentially hazardous environments.

YES

 

Many 'proper' boats have gas alarms that monitor your cabin and bilges for LPG &/or Carbon Monoxide

(Look out for the next revision of the BSS)

 

https://www.force4.co.uk/item/Pilot/Carbon-Monoxide-and-Twin-Gas-Alarm-System/13H8

 

Pilot Carbon Monoxide & Twin Gas Alarm System

Pilot Carbon Monoxide & Twin Gas Alarm System
- The presence of Carbon Monoxide and leaking gas are extremely dangerous on a boat. This is an effective alarm which will detect both Carbon Monoxide and LPG (butane and propane) gas well before escaping gases build up to dangerous levels.
Supplied with two LPG sensors and one CO sensor, this alarm system has a loud alarm with warning light and a test function.
• Voltage: 12/24V
• Sensitivity: Detects butane/propane at 25% LEL (lower explosive limit)
• Unit Size: W70 x H115 x D40mm
• In the Box: Multi gas alarm, 2 x LPG sensors with 3.5m cable, 1 x CO sensor with 3.5m cable, User manual, Sensor information slip

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20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

YES

 

Many 'proper' boats have gas alarms that monitor your cabin and bilges for LPG &/or Carbon Monoxide

(Look out for the next revision of the BSS)

 

https://www.force4.co.uk/item/Pilot/Carbon-Monoxide-and-Twin-Gas-Alarm-System/13H8

 

Pilot Carbon Monoxide & Twin Gas Alarm System

Pilot Carbon Monoxide & Twin Gas Alarm System
- The presence of Carbon Monoxide and leaking gas are extremely dangerous on a boat. This is an effective alarm which will detect both Carbon Monoxide and LPG (butane and propane) gas well before escaping gases build up to dangerous levels.
Supplied with two LPG sensors and one CO sensor, this alarm system has a loud alarm with warning light and a test function.
• Voltage: 12/24V
• Sensitivity: Detects butane/propane at 25% LEL (lower explosive limit)
• Unit Size: W70 x H115 x D40mm
• In the Box: Multi gas alarm, 2 x LPG sensors with 3.5m cable, 1 x CO sensor with 3.5m cable, User manual, Sensor information slip

 

 

are you really suggesting that canal boats are 'proper boats' ?      :rolleyes:

 

 

Alan, sometimes I wonder why you contribute to this forum - there are plenty of salty forum where you can discuss matters relating to twin-engined doubly-wide beam yogurt pots with others of your inclination ...............  sorry 'inclination' is inappropriate to plastic rafts that don't heel - they just have a tendency to capsize and remain inverted when they meet a proper seaway.

 

 

 

..........................  oh! and just to be pedantic, your suggestions identify the presence of gas, not a leak in the gas system.

 

 

Edited by Murflynn
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A few years ago the subject of holes in the gas locker with bolts through came up.  Rob of the BSS stated, in writing, that if the bolts were properly sealed then that was acceptable.  Not sure if i can find where it was posted on here, but I have it printed out.

As for going through the side of the boat then I can't see that that is  a problem, after all there is already a big hole there.  The thing is to stop the chance of gas getting into the inside of the boat, including the engine space.

 

OK, it was posted on 6th January 2013:

"Bolting a mounting plate or restraint anchors into the locker is ok provided the holes are fully 'filled-in' with no visible gaps/holes.  These should also be quasi-permanent arrangements, not say access or inspection plates designed to be regularly bolted and unbolted."

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4 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

are you really suggesting that canal boats are 'proper boats' ?      :rolleyes:

I think you missed out a word (or are you agreeing ?)

 

Sorry.

No intention to annoy or offend you, simply that 'boating practices' are very different for boat-shaped boats when compared to narrowboats, maybe I should just use 'non-narrowboats' as the adjective.

I cannot just use the term "Inland Waterway" as that would include many boaty-boats.

 

 

No one takes offence at "Sewer Tube" "Skip" or "Tupperware".

 

I'll try and 'do better'in future.

 

Back to the question - YES there is a 'magic' method of continually monitoring for gas leaks.

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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

I think you missed out a word (or are you agreeing ?)

 

Sorry.

No intention to annoy or offend you, simply that 'boating practices' are very different for boat-shaped boats when compared to narrowboats, maybe I should just use 'non-narrowboats' as the adjective.

I cannot just use the term "Inland Waterway" as that would include many boaty-boats.

 

 

No one takes offence at "Sewer Tube" "Skip" or "Tupperware".

 

I'll try and 'do better'in future.

 

Back to the question - YES there is a 'magic' method of continually monitoring for gas leaks.

coincided with my edit - pedantic comment B)

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23 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Do you mean the GSIUR and the BSS regulations contradict each other, or is your cooker not correctly installed?

 

It's a shame @Mike the Boilermanstopped posting as he was always informative on these topics.

I understand the cooker was not fitted according to manufacturer instructions, it is now.

I mean that the examiner was asked [by me] to sort any non compliance in the gas instal, he first filled out the BSC form, which identified faults, he then fixed faults plus some other agreed modifications, he asked me to do some minor [but essential] work on batteries, send a photo, he was back again a month later and issued my Certificate.

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8 minutes ago, dor said:

A few years ago the subject of holes in the gas locker with bolts through came up.  Rob of the BSS stated, in writing, that if the bolts were properly sealed then that was acceptable.  Not sure if i can find where it was posted on here, but I have it printed out.

As for going through the side of the boat then I can't see that that is  a problem, after all there is already a big hole there.  The thing is to stop the chance of gas getting into the inside of the boat, including the engine space.

 

OK, it was posted on 6th January 2013:

"Bolting a mounting plate or restraint anchors into the locker is ok provided the holes are fully 'filled-in' with no visible gaps/holes.  These should also be quasi-permanent arrangements, not say access or inspection plates designed to be regularly bolted and unbolted."

 

The 2015 Version of the BSS states :

 

Up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or other high‐pressure components where these are higher, the bottom,sides, and seams of every cylinder locker must be free of any:

• holes, e.g. caused by drilling, rust or cutting; or ,

• cracks, splits or de‐laminations; or,

• missing or damaged welds at seams; or,

• other signs of damage or deterioration… …. that can be determined by visual examination to penetrate the locker to the interior of the vessel.

 

 

I can imagine that an examiner could argue that a hole drilled and 'filled' with a bolt and washer would not comply, but conversely is it now fully sealed ?

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51 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

the only way the boat-owner can check if his system is leaking is by routinely checking the bubble tester.

 

what on earth do you mean by 'continually monitored'?  are you suggesting to new boat-owners that there is some magic method of continually monitoring you gas system for leaks?

 

..............................  of course if your week is so busy that you can't afford the time to check regularly then perhaps you should stay away from water, gas, and other potentially hazardous environments.

My nose monitors this, but I would have to have a bubble tester visible, eg in the saloon rather than in some  locker which is relatively dfficult to access and it is potentially liable to damage. To me this is like puting an engine rev counter/temp gauge/other inside the engine housing.

For what it is worth, I have a lifetime of working and playing in medium to higher risk activities, so I tend to assess situations objectively. I wear PPI as appropriate.

I travel on trains with back to engine, and on planes seated next to door!

I've had a few near misses along the way, but losing young friends to avoidable accidents makes one more circumspect. 

Edited by LadyG
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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The 2015 Version of the BSS states :

 

Up to the level of the top of the cylinder valves, or other high‐pressure components where these are higher, the bottom,sides, and seams of every cylinder locker must be free of any:

• holes, e.g. caused by drilling, rust or cutting; or ,

• cracks, splits or de‐laminations; or,

• missing or damaged welds at seams; or,

• other signs of damage or deterioration… …. that can be determined by visual examination to penetrate the locker to the interior of the vessel.

 

 

I can imagine that an examiner could argue that a hole drilled and 'filled' with a bolt and washer would not comply, but conversely is it now fully sealed ?

god forbid that the boat was built 100 years ago using rivets instead of welds.   no doubt a BSC examiner would refuse to board the boat 'cos it might sink at any moment - hundreds of holes below the waterline, each filled with a dubious piece of metal.

 

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2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

My nose monitors this, but I would have to have a bubble tester visible, eg in the saloon rather than in some  locker which is relatively dfficult to access. To me this is like puting an engine rev counter/temp gauge/other inside the engine housing.

You do know they only bubble when you press the button, right?

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11 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

god forbid that the boat was built 100 years ago using rivets instead of welds.   no doubt a BSC examiner would refuse to board the boat 'cos it might sink at any moment - hundreds of holes below the waterline, each filled with a dubious piece of metal.

 

To be fair to BSC examiners, sometimes they are right. Narrowboats are usually poorly provided with lifeboats as well. 

1319996662_Stwer_Titanic.jpg.7039d776aa12bba291c4f51c6eae7e93.jpg

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