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'BITUROSS' & water-tank crying.


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Has anyone used BITUROSS in the past and know what this is (epoxy? bitumen?). I'm craned out to do my water tank & I've reached a stage of despair because it appears I'm crap at angle grinding through this BITUROSS coating (mentioned in my boat's paperwork). I've been advised by the marina to get it back to bare metal, but it literally took me 30 minutes just to achieve a 20cm square. I've overcome crawling into the tiny space, but I can't see how I can overcome my slowness (too weak arms & pressure)? I ended up having a good cry tonight because I felt so overwhelmed.

Any tips really appreciated at this point. 

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Is it really hard or or is it making a sticky mess? If its sticky then scraping it off with a sharp scraper might be better than an angle grinder. What disc/brush are you using in the angle grinder?  Is the tank really rusty? If its in good condition then local repairs might be enough rather than a full overhaul.

As you now know, getting to clean bare metal is a big horrid job so if you do succeed it would be crazy to do the tank in anything except a good epoxy.

 

..............Dave

 

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Hello Dave, & thanks for responding! On the lid to the tank it seems soft, but it is unfortunately hard in the tank itself. I've been given two types of wire brushes (cup version & one for corners) but I've only worked with the cup version so far. The tank isn't rusty all over, but it if fairly widespread. If I try to get it down to the metal myself, it will take ten days or more - and my sanity with it. I'm about to ask the boat yard for a quote, but not sure if they'd even do this type of jobs. I can't see myself getting successfully down to metal on my own. I was hoping that if this BITUROSS was bitumen, it might be possible to just do vactan on the rust and a new layer of bitumen on top?

 

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No vactan in a water tank, its water based and won't last.

 

Wire brushes are not ideal on bitumen type stuff.  Chip and scrape, chipping hammer and hand scraper, no point in removing the good stuff, do the bad bits and a bit around them.

Watch your eyes and nails, ruined mine often and the nail bars are not open.

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My thoughts are that if its that hard its not worth it, getting rid of some paints is next to impossible, bituminous paint is one of them, anything you do tends to melt the stuff and mess up the grinding / sanding disc or brush and getting back to chemically inert steel ain't going to happen. Its easy to say take it back to bare steel but in decades of boating I have very, very,  seldom done that. Without seeing the thing its hard to know what to do but bituminous potable water tank paint if its still available would probably be perfectly ok, 10 minutes sanding to roughen up the surface, wash the tank out, let it dry and slap a couple of coats on, follow the instructions on the tin and that's it, finished. Why is the boat out of the water? Is it an integral tank? worries about it rusting through?

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20 minutes ago, Lady_Why said:

Hello Dave, & thanks for responding! On the lid to the tank it seems soft, but it is unfortunately hard in the tank itself. I've been given two types of wire brushes (cup version & one for corners) but I've only worked with the cup version so far. The tank isn't rusty all over, but it if fairly widespread. If I try to get it down to the metal myself, it will take ten days or more - and my sanity with it. I'm about to ask the boat yard for a quote, but not sure if they'd even do this type of jobs. I can't see myself getting successfully down to metal on my own. I was hoping that if this BITUROSS was bitumen, it might be possible to just do vactan on the rust and a new layer of bitumen on top?

 

Its a horrid job so the yard will likely want a lot of money, or more likely just not be interested.  So is the "Bituross" melting and clogging up the brush or do you just not have the strength to push hard on the grinder?    If its a long term boat then bare metal and epoxy is the way to go, but otherwise if the existing coating is well stuck on then just scrape off any loose bits of and put a potable "blacking" on top of it (after testing a small patch for compatibility). Vactan is not a water tank treatment, its a sort of last resort primer when its not possible to remove rust. Again, if you are not doing a top notch epoxy job then there is no need to go right back to bare metal.

Can find no mention of Bituross on the www.

Are the yard maybe telling you to go to bare metal just to give you a hard time because you are a woman??   or maybe they are saying "you really should go to bare metal....in an idealworld....but....."

 

................Dave

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Only reference I can find is to 

 

BITUROX

Which appears, as far as I can determine, to be a registered process for making road laying bitumen. If that is what it is then it maybe not the best material for a water tank. I have a slight inkling that it may not be potable. 

Note I haven't spend much time reading the material I'll leave that to you. 

 

http://www.biturox.com/en/

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.poerner.at/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/Flyer_POE_Biturox_Web2012_e.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj04L6D9P_qAhUyRxUIHfD9DMEQFjACegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw0RbhZUWohcT4YliVIMl18Y

 

Edited by reg
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36 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

No vactan in a water tank, its water based and won't last.

 

Wire brushes are not ideal on bitumen type stuff.  Chip and scrape, chipping hammer and hand scraper, no point in removing the good stuff, do the bad bits and a bit around them.

Watch your eyes and nails, ruined mine often and the nail bars are not open.

I would assume it is ok, if the Vactan is covered with another paint afterwards (bitumen or epoxy?). The Vactan fact sheet mentions its potable and I've seen it recommended for water tanks.

 

27 minutes ago, Bee said:

My thoughts are that if its that hard its not worth it, getting rid of some paints is next to impossible, bituminous paint is one of them, anything you do tends to melt the stuff and mess up the grinding / sanding disc or brush and getting back to chemically inert steel ain't going to happen. Its easy to say take it back to bare steel but in decades of boating I have very, very,  seldom done that. Without seeing the thing its hard to know what to do but bituminous potable water tank paint if its still available would probably be perfectly ok, 10 minutes sanding to roughen up the surface, wash the tank out, let it dry and slap a couple of coats on, follow the instructions on the tin and that's it, finished. Why is the boat out of the water? Is it an integral tank? worries about it rusting through?

Yes, it's an integral tank & I was a bit worried since it hasn't been opened in 18 years (to my knowledge). So for assurance I craned it out and did an early blackening too.

I don't know if it is bituminous paint. The name suggests it, but the surface seems hard and slow to get through. If it's not bituminous paint, I'm not sure if I can put a bituminous paint on top? 

 

30 minutes ago, dmr said:

Its a horrid job so the yard will likely want a lot of money, or more likely just not be interested.  So is the "Bituross" melting and clogging up the brush or do you just not have the strength to push hard on the grinder?    If its a long term boat then bare metal and epoxy is the way to go, but otherwise if the existing coating is well stuck on then just scrape off any loose bits of and put a potable "blacking" on top of it (after testing a small patch for compatibility). Vactan is not a water tank treatment, its a sort of last resort primer when its not possible to remove rust. Again, if you are not doing a top notch epoxy job then there is no need to go right back to bare metal.

Can find no mention of Bituross on the www.

Are the yard maybe telling you to go to bare metal just to give you a hard time because you are a woman??   or maybe they are saying "you really should go to bare metal....in an idealworld....but....."

 

................Dave

No, I couldn't find it on the web either! The yard isn't that helpful, tbh - at least not in terms of discussing possibilities & options. It's just 'back to metal' or 'I don't know what to tell you'. Hence my depressed state. 

It doesn't melt or clog; just tough to get through. Grinding forever and only inching forwards. Have to pause a lot as the grinder gets very hot. The boat yard worker recommended the angle grinder (i'm hiring it), but also mentioned that they themselves use needle guns for the job (?). It is a long term boat (give & take the intrusion of fate) & I kind of love her, so would like to do the best job. But I also don't want to struggle with my own well-being. 

It is not advisable to put vactan on top of the rust, before applying the potable blacking?

 

8 minutes ago, reg said:

Only reference I can find is to 

 

BITUROX

Which appears, as far as I can determine, to be a registered process for making road laying bitumen. If that is what it is then it maybe not the best material for a water tank. I have a slight inkling that it may not be potable. 

Note I haven't spend much time reading the material I'll leave that to you. 

 

http://www.biturox.com/en/

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.poerner.at/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/Flyer_POE_Biturox_Web2012_e.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj04L6D9P_qAhUyRxUIHfD9DMEQFjACegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw0RbhZUWohcT4YliVIMl18Y

 

That's certainly a very similar name!

 

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1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

No vactan in a water tank, its water based and won't last.

Incorrect advice. Have you ever tried it?
 

Vactan has been tested and approved for use in potable water systems. In such an environment it would be overcoated and so only be working as a passivating primer anyway. 

27 minutes ago, Lady_Why said:

It is not advisable to put vactan on top of the rust, before applying the potable blacking?

That’s what I did, and I had no adverse results. As others have said, if the non-rusty bits are as well adhered as you describe then I’d leave them alone. Get rid of anything loose, wire brush the rusty bits as best you can, coat the rusty bits with Vactan, then apply a potable blacking. 

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9 minutes ago, WotEver said:

As others have said, if the non-rusty bits are as well adhered as you describe then I’d leave them alone. Get rid of anything loose, wire brush the rusty bits as best you can, coat the rusty bits with Vactan, then apply a potable blacking. 

Thank you, Wotever. ? I am currently not 100% sure that the previous paint was bituminous though. Would there be an issue using potable blacking on something that isn't the same?

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2 minutes ago, Lady_Why said:

Would there be an issue using potable blacking on something that isn't the same?

I don’t know so won’t guess. I’ll leave that question for others to answer. Obviously you’d still need to abrade the existing coating whatever you use. 

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2 hours ago, Lady_Why said:

Has anyone used BITUROSS in the past and know what this is (epoxy? bitumen?). I'm craned out to do my water tank...

 

I have only skim read the thread and I couldn't see if anyone else had asked this question, but why would you take your boat out of the water to paint the water tank?

 

You might need to get it out of the water to apply new paint in winter depending on what paint you're using, but I doubt you'd need to get it out in summer and you certainly don't need it out the water to do the prep. 

 

I'd estimate it took me a week to get all the cement epoxy out of my widebeam tank using a needle gun and angle grinder. It was very hard work. You can buy a reasonable mini angle grinder for about 40 quid from Screwfix so I'm not sure why you're hiring one? You might need to chuck it away afterwards though. They're not really designed for continuous work. Try wire wheels rather than wire cups. I hope you're wearing eye protection as well as ear defenders and leather gloves.

 

If you really can't be bothered with it then just get rid of any rust, key the entire surface and slap a few coats of bitumen on top. It pretty much sticks to anything.

Edited by blackrose
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12 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I have only skim read the thread and I couldn't see if anyone else had asked this question, but why would you take your boat out of the water to paint the water tank?

 

I was a bit nervous about the state of the tank and doing hard grinding while in water, so took it out. I combined it with an early blacking. In hindsight it was possibly unnecessary, but I didn't know at the time. Neither did I know you can get that cheap angle grinders (it was the one thing I didn't google, in all of my googling)! That said, I needed & will need the boat yard's help to sort out the screw holes so I can re-fit the lid (brass screws got messy when they tried to get them out), since I'm not very tool savvy. Hm, tomorrow may be my last day of using a hired grinder at least. 

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Sounds like a job for a Tercoo disks, not cheap but very effective. I did a complete 57ft hull using a set of these although It was hard work doing such a big area. 

I would suggest for a water tank a single or a double would do the job. 

Force 4 do the double for just under £50

https://www.force4.co.uk/item/Force-4/Tercoo-Rotary-Blaster-Double/CZ7

 

Short video on its use here 

https://www.thewetworks.co.uk/products/tercoo-rotary-blaster-3-models

 

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7 hours ago, Lady_Why said:

I was a bit nervous about the state of the tank and doing hard grinding while in water, so took it out. I combined it with an early blacking. In hindsight it was possibly unnecessary, but I didn't know at the time. Neither did I know you can get that cheap angle grinders (it was the one thing I didn't google, in all of my googling)! That said, I needed & will need the boat yard's help to sort out the screw holes so I can re-fit the lid (brass screws got messy when they tried to get them out), since I'm not very tool savvy. Hm, tomorrow may be my last day of using a hired grinder at least. 

"Brass screws got messy" a difficult question this one, but do you know what size thread they are?

I have some spare 5/16 x 18TPI BSW, brass screws, which may help.

 

Bod.

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8 hours ago, Lady_Why said:

Thank you, Wotever. ? I am currently not 100% sure that the previous paint was bituminous though. Would there be an issue using potable blacking on something that isn't the same?

I thought the way to identify bitumen was white spirit on a white cloth and rub hard. If the cloth stains it's bitumen. 

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8 hours ago, Lady_Why said:

I was a bit nervous about the state of the tank and doing hard grinding while in water, so took it out. I combined it with an early blacking. In hindsight it was possibly unnecessary, but I didn't know at the time. Neither did I know you can get that cheap angle grinders (it was the one thing I didn't google, in all of my googling)! That said, I needed & will need the boat yard's help to sort out the screw holes so I can re-fit the lid (brass screws got messy when they tried to get them out), since I'm not very tool savvy. Hm, tomorrow may be my last day of using a hired grinder at least. 

When sourcing screws to re-fit the lid consider using stainless steel socket screws (an allen key rather than slotted or crosshead) Much more positive with no slip or damage. As for removing the existing coating given what you've tried so far I fear it's a needle gun or something similar.

Edited by Slim
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Screwfix sell stainless socket screws and the nuts to fit, I use them a lot. Might not be big enough though so you might have to look around a bit, they are not very expensive but I you are asked for lots of money then keep looking!

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11 hours ago, reg said:

Sounds like a job for a Tercoo disks, not cheap but very effective.

 

I was recommended this in a FB group too, so I am considering giving it a try. Thanks for the links!

 

3 hours ago, jenevers said:

If this stuff is so hard to remove, surely it's not rusty underneath, so why are you trying to remove it?

Because I'm a novice (& possibly a moron) who follow instructions from the boat yard, trusting that they are the experts. In my defence, I questioned the 'you must take it back to metal' advice a couple of  times, and particularly after realising that I can't take it back to the metal. 

 

3 hours ago, Bod said:

"Brass screws got messy" a difficult question this one, but do you know what size thread they are?

I have some spare 5/16 x 18TPI BSW, brass screws, which may help.

 

Bod.

The boat yard have advised me to go with stainless steel instead. Thank you so much for the offer though! And thank you, Slim & Bee, for further tips on screws!

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3 hours ago, Slim said:

I thought the way to identify bitumen was white spirit on a white cloth and rub hard. If the cloth stains it's bitumen. 

Turns out, they had a little test patch in a drawer in the office all along. I was given it this morning. I have no clue why I wasn't given it straight away, when I presented the problem. *sigh* But at least I have it now. Did the test once, but then realised the surface might be dirty - so I cleaned the surface and tried again. Not all that much came off though so I still feel uncertain if I'm staring at bitumen or 'deeper dirt'.

 

 

Edited by Lady_Why
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7 minutes ago, Lady_Why said:

Turns out, they had a little test patch in a drawer in the office all along. I was given it this morning. I have no clue why I wasn't given it straight away, when I presented the problem. *sigh* But at least I have it now. Did the test once, but then realised the surface might be dirty - so I cleaned the surface and tried again. Not all that much came off though so I still feel uncertain if I'm staring at bitumen or 'deeper dirt'.

 

 

Boat 'engineers' / repairers don't make money by being helpful and telling you how to do it "DIY", they make money when you say "I cannot do it, will you do the job ?"

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23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Boat 'engineers' / repairers don't make money by being helpful and telling you how to do it "DIY", they make money when you say "I cannot do it, will you do the job ?"

I liked this boat yard the first time around, so I resisted this notion for a long time. They are already making money out of me (craning, opening the tank, tool hire) so I hoped I could assume that whatever guidance they give - even if only a little - would be honest. I don't really know if I should revise that, or just view them as disorganised/disinterested.

The problem, of course, is that I am now deeply resistant to asking them to do it since I feel that I've been given the run around. 

Edited by Lady_Why
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14 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

No vactan in a water tank, its water based and won't last.

 

Wire brushes are not ideal on bitumen type stuff.  Chip and scrape, chipping hammer and hand scraper, no point in removing the good stuff, do the bad bits and a bit around them.

Watch your eyes and nails, ruined mine often and the nail bars are not open.

Why would anyone not wear gloves for a job like this?

 

Agreed there is no point removing the good stuff - provided that the new coating will bond to it properly.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Lady_Why said:

Turns out, they had a little test patch in a drawer in the office all along. I was given it this morning. I have no clue why I wasn't given it straight away, when I presented the problem. *sigh* But at least I have it now. Did the test once, but then realised the surface might be dirty - so I cleaned the surface and tried again. Not all that much came off though so I still feel uncertain if I'm staring at bitumen or 'deeper dirt'.

 

 

Try dropping a small bit into a jar of white spirit for a few minutes. I would imagine that if it's bitumen based it would soften up and leave a residue on your fingers

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