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David Mack

CRT / Bridgewater Canal Agreement

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Two or three years ago the Bridgewater Canal Co introduced stricter rules for craft based on CRT waters visiting the Bridgewater Canal, including a 7 day maximum, no return within 28 days rule, which caused some difficulties, particularly for those visiting Liverpool and for hire boats on the Cheshire Ring. I know CRT were particularly incensed by the Bridgewater's unilateral action.

It seems that heads have now been knocked together, and that a more sensible compromise has been reached.

 

"Agreement with Bridgewater Canal Company (BCC) brings benefits for boaters

An agreement has been reached between Bridgewater Canal Company and the Canal & River Trust, effective from 1 September 2020, that gives licence holders for each organisation permission to cruise between Trust waterways and the Bridgewater Canal.

Boaters are required to book online but can now spend up to seven days, travelling as far as they want, cruising away from their home navigation free of charge. If, during this time, you’ve ventured from those navigation authority’s waters, you’ll get a further three days to make the return journey to your home navigation.

Liverpool Waterfront Courtesy of Culture LiverpoolFor example, if you’re a Trust boat licence holder, and book to cruise on the Bridgewater, you can take a gentle seven day cruise to Liverpool and on to Trust waters and have an extended break there (observing mooring stay times of course!). Then you have three days to make your return journey to home waters, making sure you’re back no more than 28 days after you first cruised on to the Bridgewater.

You can revisit the other authority’s water again after a 28-day period.

Holiday hire boats, whichever waterway they are based on, will have unlimited access across both navigations.

Richard Parry, chief executive of the Trust, comments: “I am pleased that this reciprocal agreement with the Bridgewater Canal Company will give boaters easier, and more, access to the canals of the North West – regardless of which navigation authority they are licensed with. We look forward to welcoming boaters from the Bridgewater Canal on to our network.”

The booking of passage between the Trust waterways and Bridgewater Canal will allow both organisations to plan works and day-to-day repairs.

Look out for more details in the next couple editions of Boaters’ Up

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So, due to this improvement in the arrangement, instead of just going onto the BW for a few days, we now have to book online. I presume they'll tell us where sooner or later, but for boaters without internet? Perhaps they'll provide a terminal at the stop lock.

This is another example of Arthur's Law, which is that every improvement to anything makes it less efficient and worse in practice. The ultimate example it a TV set, which now costs ten times as much as it used to and has terrible sound.

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18 hours ago, David Mack said:

For example, if you’re a Trust boat licence holder, and book to cruise on the Bridgewater, you can take a gentle seven day cruise to Liverpool and on to Trust waters and have an extended break there (observing mooring stay times of course!). Then you have three days to make your return journey to home waters, making sure you’re back no more than 28 days after you first cruised on to the Bridgewater.

 

Does this mean we now have to book for passage along the Bridgewater even when using it as a transit route?

.
 

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9 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Does this mean we now have to book for passage along the Bridgewater even when using it as a transit route?

.
 

That is exactly how it reads, hence my decision to always declare as a hire boat because they don't need to book.

Its a farce, the Bridgewater boats are always on the Shroppie going to Llangollen, bet none of them book to be on C&RT water.

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1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Its a farce, the Bridgewater boats are always on the Shroppie going to Llangollen, bet none of them book to be on C&RT water.

Surely that is something to pressurise CRT about.

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7 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Surely that is something to pressurise CRT about.

I would expect that to be an exercise in futility.  Why don't you try it?  :apple:

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1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

That is exactly how it reads, hence my decision to always declare as a hire boat because they don't need to book.

Its a farce, the Bridgewater boats are always on the Shroppie going to Llangollen, bet none of them book to be on C&RT water.

It would appear to be reciprocal, but of course the critical bit is enforcement. 

Edited by Arthur Marshall

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55 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

That is exactly how it reads, hence my decision to always declare as a hire boat because they don't need to book.

Its a farce, the Bridgewater boats are always on the Shroppie going to Llangollen, bet none of them book to be on C&RT water.

Bridgewater boats need a CRT licence from Barbridge junction onwards.

 

Lots of Bridgewater boats have 12 months CRT licences and others like me just get a 6 month CRT licence to cover the summer period. (Not this year though)

 

In the past I have used weekly CRT licences for short visits and others have used the 30 day explorer CRT licence.

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1 hour ago, Midnight said:

Does this mean we now have to book for passage along the Bridgewater even when using it as a transit route?

.
 

Yes. That's why it's an improvement, and we should be proud of CRT for agreeing to it.

Edited to add: That's irony, if not sarcasm.

Edited by Arthur Marshall
Sarcasm
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1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I would expect that to be an exercise in futility.  Why don't you try it?  :apple:

I always let CRT know what I think.  The problem is they will take no notice of a single voice crying in the wilderness.  If every licence holder contacted them rather than said "it is an exercise in futility it could help.

 

Until recently (I have known any MPs personally for a good number of years)they reckoned if somebody bothered to write to them at least 100 were concerned about the subject and hadn't written.

 

The more who take the trouble the more likely something might get done.    It is absolutely certain nothing will happen if there are only one or two who express concern.

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2 hours ago, Jerra said:

Surely that is something to pressurise CRT about.

Its not the Bridgewater boaters fault, why make them suffer, I gave that thinking up when I was a school.

What other navigation authority gives you 12 weeks a year for free on their waters? Try visiting the Thames or the Nene, Basingstoke or Wey every month without paying anything.

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1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Its not the Bridgewater boaters fault, why make them suffer, I gave that thinking up when I was a school.

Its not a question of making them suffer.   If boaters don't want to have to book to use the BW the only way is to get CRT & BW to agree booking is unnecessary.    That won't happen if BW boaters don't have to book.  Either accept the booking system and don't complain or do something about it.

 

The only way I can see to do something about it is put pressure on Peel.   This will not happen unless BW boaters know how inconvenient booking is.   They can only know this if they have to use a booking system.

 

So either accept the situation without a murmur (you choice it seems) or find a way to get Peel to change their minds.

 

Can you suggest any other way?

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Is it really a booking that is being made or perhaps more of a registration? I assume there won’t be a sentry posted to the junctions to check you are there on the day of your ‘booking’ and transit will not be denied if you are a day or so late arriving.

 

What it really seems to do is set the duration and permissible start date of a transit and that of the return if it is to be made within 28 days. It also effectively prohibits more than one transit within 56 days (excepting a return within 28 days). There’s still a lot of leeway within that given the relatively short length of canal involved.

 

JP

Edited by Captain Pegg

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1 hour ago, Pie Eater said:

Bridgewater boats need a CRT licence from Barbridge junction onwards.

 

Lots of Bridgewater boats have 12 months CRT licences and others like me just get a 6 month CRT licence to cover the summer period. (Not this year though)

 

In the past I have used weekly CRT licences for short visits and others have used the 30 day explorer CRT licence.

I have never noticed a Bridgewater boat carrying a C&RT licence.  I will start looking and asking passing boaters maybe.

I know the limit is Barbridge but it is ignored constantly.

12 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Its not a question of making them suffer.   If boaters don't want to have to book to use the BW the only way is to get CRT & BW to agree booking is unnecessary.    That won't happen if BW boaters don't have to book.  Either accept the booking system and don't complain or do something about it.

 

The only way I can see to do something about it is put pressure on Peel.   This will not happen unless BW boaters know how inconvenient booking is.   They can only know this if they have to use a booking system.

 

So either accept the situation without a murmur (you choice it seems) or find a way to get Peel to change their minds.

 

Can you suggest any other way?

But I did "murmur".  That's why the thread is here.

 

I have had so many contacts with C&RT over the years that they now ignore me and never reply to emails..........

 

Time for someone else to carry the batten.

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14 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Is it really a booking that is being made or perhaps more of a registration? I assume there won’t be a sentry posted to the junctions to check you are there on the day of your ‘booking’ and transit will not be denied if you are a day or so late arriving.

 

What it really seems to do is set the duration and permissible start date of a transit and that of the return if it is to be made within 28 days. It also effectively prohibits more than one transit within 56 days (excepting a return within 28 days). There’s still a lot of leeway within that given the relatively short length of canal involved.

 

JP

Why does it prohibits more than one transit within 56 days?

Cant you just register, make your trip and then, after 28 days, register again?

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22 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Its not a question of making them suffer.   If boaters don't want to have to book to use the BW the only way is to get CRT & BW to agree booking is unnecessary.    That won't happen if BW boaters don't have to book.  Either accept the booking system and don't complain or do something about it.

 

The only way I can see to do something about it is put pressure on Peel.   This will not happen unless BW boaters know how inconvenient booking is.   They can only know this if they have to use a booking system.

 

So either accept the situation without a murmur (you choice it seems) or find a way to get Peel to change their minds.

 

Can you suggest any other way?

Peel wont give a monkeys how inconvenient anything is for their boaters. Tit for tat will do nothing except set boater against boater

13 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I have never noticed a Bridgewater boat carrying a C&RT licence.  I will start looking and asking passing boaters maybe.

 

I was surprised how many do and I know one boat that got a CRT enforcement notice on the tiller for not displaying it.

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3 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

hence my decision to always declare as a hire boat because they don't need to book.

 

CRT will be pleased to take the extra fees off you ...

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Derek Porteous said:

Why does it prohibits more than one transit within 56 days?

Cant you just register, make your trip and then, after 28 days, register again?

I thought it said once you had left the Bridgewater (either after a one way or return transit within 28 days) then you couldn’t return within 28 days. I will concede that isn’t technically the same thing as one journey in 56 days but if no one is recording the dates boats are physically present on the Bridgewater it may effectively be applied that way by those who administrate it.

 

JP

Edited by Captain Pegg

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47 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

But I did "murmur".  That's why the thread is here.

 

I have had so many contacts with C&RT over the years that they now ignore me and never reply to emails..........

 

Time for someone else to carry the batten.

I was of course replying to Ditchcrawler.

36 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Peel wont give a monkeys how inconvenient anything is for their boaters. Tit for tat will do nothing except set boater against boater

So put simply there is no point anybody complaining about any booking system because if CRt see it accepted with no complaints they will introduce more and more of it.

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32 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

I thought it said once you had left the Bridgewater (either after a one way or return transit within 28 days) then you couldn’t return within 28 days. I will concede that isn’t technically the same thing as one journey in 56 days but if no one is recording the dates boats are physically present on the Bridgewater it may effectively be applied that way by those who administrate it.

 

JP

Mmmmm. Good point. I hope not, or that really would be a regression. Hopefully details will be published soon.

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2 hours ago, Jerra said:

I was of course replying to Ditchcrawler.

So put simply there is no point anybody complaining about any booking system because if CRt see it accepted with no complaints they will introduce more and more of it.

I dont think its worth complaining to CRT that Peel want you to register to go on their waters. 

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2 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

I thought it said once you had left the Bridgewater (either after a one way or return transit within 28 days) then you couldn’t return within 28 days. I will concede that isn’t technically the same thing as one journey in 56 days but if no one is recording the dates boats are physically present on the Bridgewater it may effectively be applied that way by those who administrate it.

 

JP

 

No, the 28 days starts when you leave the Bridgewater currently, so anyone reaching Leigh on the L&L today can't return onto the Bridgewater until the 29th, unless they pay £40 for it.

 

From September they can do it free, but need to book it.  The 28 day clock starts ticking again once they leave the Bridgewater on the return trip.

 

3 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I have never noticed a Bridgewater boat carrying a C&RT licence.  I will start looking and asking passing boaters maybe.

I know the limit is Barbridge but it is ignored constantly.

 

Many of the active boaters have full CRT licences.  Admittedly they get a large discount on them (75%?) but many have them.

 

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39 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I dont think its worth complaining to CRT that Peel want you to register to go on their waters. 

I never suggested that!   I suggested complain to CRT that the agreement is not both ways, therefor they should require BW boaters to book.    Then there is a possibility, (and for those who are upset/annoyed a possibility is better than nothing) that BW boaters would press Peel about it and the agreement might (note the word) get altered.

 

If nobody does/says anything booking both on CRT water and elsewhere will spread generally with an "administration" charge,

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26 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

No, the 28 days starts when you leave the Bridgewater currently, so anyone reaching Leigh on the L&L today can't return onto the Bridgewater until the 29th, unless they pay £40 for it.

 

From September they can do it free, but need to book it.  The 28 day clock starts ticking again once they leave the Bridgewater on the return trip.

 

I’m unclear as to what you are disagreeing with as I can’t see anything contradictory in what you say compared to what I said notwithstanding that you have added helpful detail outwith the context of my post.
 

I was suggesting that once there is a formal record of when you were booked to be on the Bridgewater then the last (28th) day of that period may become the reference date from which a future booking might be permitted rather than the actual date on which the boat concerned left the Bridgewater. The text posted above by David Mack implies that it is two periods of 28 days (one where you are permitted use for free and one where you are not) if it is read literally, although I accept that may not be the actual intent of the agreement. Nonetheless it’s the easiest way for a booking clerk to apply the agreement unless they are in possession of information regarding actual movements. Perhaps it may be realistic on the Bridgewater that such information exists but it wouldn’t be on CRT waters.

 

JP

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