Advice on boat valuation

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, Higgs said:

Mine is a 1984 Mike Heywood. Had a survey done when I bought the boat. I was surprised that it took the insurance company another 16 years to ask for another - two years ago, and also a valuation; without which, the insurance company would only have wanted to offer third party cover. 

That was lucky.

All of the insurers I have had ask for a declaration that if the boat is over 20 / 25 / 30 years old the boat has had a survey within the last 5 years.

[Higgs]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That was lucky.

All of the insurers I have had ask for a declaration that if the boat is over 20 / 25 / 30 years old the boat has had a survey within the last 5 years.

 

Yes, my understanding was similar. I'd have expected to be asked for another survey much sooner than I was. Although I haven't changed broker in all the time I've had the boat, the insurers do change. 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Higgs

[blackrose]

19 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Liverpool hull or Liverpool fitout as well?  I would never buy a Liverpool hull, seen too many bad ones. Poor rudder design depending on through bolts that shear.

 

What examples of bad LB hulls have you seen? I've been on one for 15 years and think the steelwork is fine.

 

However, for a period they were building more boats than just about any other builder, so it won't be surprising if you see more that aren't right.. The rudder through bolts can easily be rectified by the way. It's not a major issue.

 

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by blackrose

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Alastair said:

I won't comment on price.

 

However, you say you want to make it more 'open plan, removing cupboards...'.

 

Before you do that, I suggest that you pack up everything you need for a few weeks aboard (I'm guess you aren't intending to live aboard). Clothes, food, tools, bedding, towels, toilet paper, cleaning stuff; everything you would want. Everything.

 

Now put it all away in the boat. If there is spare storage, then think about removing it.

 

19 hours ago, Noobasaurus Rex said:

 

 

EDIT: Looking for a liveaboard
 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

29 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

What examples of bad LB hulls have you seen? I've been on one for 15 years and think the steelwork is fine.

 

However, for a period they were building more boats than just about any other builder, so it won't be surprising if you see more that aren't right.. The rudder through bolts can easily be rectified by the way. It's not a major issue.

 

 

Where to start,   on new delivered hulls.

 

Poor welding generally.

Rudder tube not welded to deck.

Front and back bulkheads only welded where they touched, gaps elsewhere.

Bulkheads not in square, inside cabin 1 1/2" longer one side than the other.

Bent boats due to welding all one side first, they throw them over to weld.

Sinking when launched due to gaps, and cuts below the water line.

Feces in the water tank. Tank not blacked.

Wrong handrails, window apertures not as ordered.

Stem post not central to hull.

 

On completed boats.

 

Little or no insulation in roofs.

MDF fitouts

The rudder bolts problem.

Wooden doors poor quality timber.

Electrics, too many faults to list.

 

Enough? I could cite more.

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Tracy D'arth

[Noobasaurus Rex]

38 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Where to start,   on new delivered hulls.

 

Poor welding generally.

Rudder tube not welded to deck.

Front and back bulkheads only welded where they touched, gaps elsewhere.

Bulkheads not in square, inside cabin 1 1/2" longer one side than the other.

Bent boats due to welding all one side first, they throw them over to weld.

Sinking when launched due to gaps, and cuts below the water line.

Feces in the water tank. Tank not blacked.

Wrong handrails, window apertures not as ordered.

Stem post not central to hull.

 

On completed boats.

 

Little or no insulation in roofs.

MDF fitouts

The rudder bolts problem.

Wooden doors poor quality timber.

Electrics, too many faults to list.

 

Enough? I could cite more.

 

So perhaps an owner fit-out would not be the worst thing!

 

Thanks for all the responses, gonna keep an eye on it but perhaps only for chucking an embarrassingly low offer on it should there not be any major problems come up after more probing questions.

 

As for living in a muddy ditch with very few possessions, I’m fortunate to have spent many years living in a van / out of one rucksack / on a bicycle, so I’m actually looking forward to that aspect of basically camping full

time, it’s just boats and how they work that I’m a bit clueless on...

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, Noobasaurus Rex said:

So perhaps an owner fit-out would not be the worst thing!

 

As long as your start with a good foundation - not junk. Silk purse and sow's ear come to mind. 

 

 

 

 

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Where to start,   on new delivered hulls.

 

Poor welding generally.

Rudder tube not welded to deck.

Front and back bulkheads only welded where they touched, gaps elsewhere.

Bulkheads not in square, inside cabin 1 1/2" longer one side than the other.

Bent boats due to welding all one side first, they throw them over to weld.

Sinking when launched due to gaps, and cuts below the water line.

Feces in the water tank. Tank not blacked.

Wrong handrails, window apertures not as ordered.

Stem post not central to hull.

 

 

I guess I must have got lucky then. I've had none of those issues. 

 

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

 

 

On completed boats.

 

Little or no insulation in roofs.

MDF fitouts

The rudder bolts problem.

Wooden doors poor quality timber.

Electrics, too many faults to list.

 

Enough? I could cite more.

 

 

I didn't realise these could all be classified as hull problems? 

 

Yes, it's enough and I'm sure you could cite more, but we can all cite issues on fit-outs from any builder. I've see issues with Colecraft boats and they're lauded on this forum. Anyway, as I said, since LB produced more budget boats than anyone else in orders of magnitude, then one is likely to see more problems. The other side of the coin of course is that there are also many satisfied owners of Liverpool boats, but we tend only to hear about the negatives.

Edited July 30, 2020 by blackrose

[Tracy D'arth]

Its the negative reviews that can enable quality control to be better. LB seemed never to learn, the phoenix company Collingwood is still the same, some of the same fault even now .

[David Schweizer]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That was lucky.

All of the insurers I have had ask for a declaration that if the boat is over 20 / 25 / 30 years old the boat has had a survey within the last 5 years.

Our boat was bulit in 1982, and the Insurers we used, SAGA, never asked for any kind of survey. (unless it was a Springer!) of course you have to be of a certain age, over 50yrs. I seem to recall.

[TheBiscuits]

9 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

Our boat was bulit in 1982, and the Insurers we used, SAGA, never asked for any kind of survey. (unless it was a Springer!) of course you have to be of a certain age, over 50yrs. I seem to recall.

 

I believe their policy used to be you'd need a survey to insure an older boat, but as long as you stayed insured with them they didn't ask for regular surveys after that.

 

I don't know if that's still the case or not.

 

Everyone else wants a 5 yearly survey.

 Sadly mine was due in May, and there was no way I could get it done then.  I paid extra for a waiver on the 5 year clause and will get the survey later this year.

[MrsM]

Hi there. Wonder if you have found a boat yet? We have recently bought our first boat. Had been following adverts on Apollo Duck etc for months to get a good feel for the market. We had a wish list (mainly around stern type and general layout) and looked at about 15 boats that met our needs. Eventually offered on a boat with plenty wrong and that had been unused for at least a year, but it ticked a lot of boxes for us. There didn't seem a massive amount of consistency in terms of pricing from what we saw. In fact the more expensive boats were generally those that had been tarted up inside (often not very tastefully) and the owners seemed to think this made them much more desirable. In the end we went for something basically sound, good engine & gearbox and are slowly but surely working our way through some of the jobs. In other words, I wouldn't worry to much about the internals as these can be altered to suit. As long as the bones of your boat are good and it is what you want, decide what it is worth to you and go for it! Very good luck. 

[Higgs]

On 30/07/2020 at 21:52, TheBiscuits said:

 

I believe their policy used to be you'd need a survey to insure an older boat, but as long as you stayed insured with them they didn't ask for regular surveys after that.

 

I don't know if that's still the case or not.

 

Everyone else wants a 5 yearly survey.

 Sadly mine was due in May, and there was no way I could get it done then.  I paid extra for a waiver on the 5 year clause and will get the survey later this year.

 

I think it was useful to me that I'd been with the same insurance brokers for many years, although not SAGA, before they asked for another survey. The boat is now 38 years old. I had it surveyed in 2003, when I bought it, and it didn't have another until 2018. The insurance company was also very obliging and extended my policy renewal date, to accommodate the somewhat rushed planning I faced to book a dry dock in order for me to comply with their request. They asked for a survey and a valuation. All this has to be done by surveyors with recognised qualifications. 

 

 

[Noobasaurus Rex]

On 05/08/2020 at 09:49, MrsM said:

Hi there. Wonder if you have found a boat yet? We have recently bought our first boat. Had been following adverts on Apollo Duck etc for months to get a good feel for the market. We had a wish list (mainly around stern type and general layout) and looked at about 15 boats that met our needs. Eventually offered on a boat with plenty wrong and that had been unused for at least a year, but it ticked a lot of boxes for us. There didn't seem a massive amount of consistency in terms of pricing from what we saw. In fact the more expensive boats were generally those that had been tarted up inside (often not very tastefully) and the owners seemed to think this made them much more desirable. In the end we went for something basically sound, good engine & gearbox and are slowly but surely working our way through some of the jobs. In other words, I wouldn't worry to much about the internals as these can be altered to suit. As long as the bones of your boat are good and it is what you want, decide what it is worth to you and go for it! Very good luck. 

Haven’t found anything yet.

 

Saw an absolute corker, fairly new boat at a very good price and ticket every box but owner wanted a quick sale and would give preference to buyers not wanting a survey... so as a newbie will probably not pursue any longer...

 

Out of interest, would an engine bay swimming in water and detritus be an instant no no or just something that would need addressing assuming the engine seemed to be sound?

 

Also, does a hull need to be grit-blasted for a proper survey? Seems to be scratching off blacking and taking measurements could miss some serious pitting...?

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Noobasaurus Rex said:

Also, does a hull need to be grit-blasted for a proper survey? Seems to be scratching off blacking and taking measurements could miss some serious pitting...?

If you did, not only would you be paying £100's extra to get it grit blasted, you'd be paying £100's more to have it recoated (even if you didn't buy it)

 

Not having a 100% thickness survey is a risk, but most boats leak / wear in similar areas so the surveyor should concentrate on those areas.

 

If the engine hole is full of oily water it would indicate a lack of maintenance - if he hasn't bothered to clean up what you can see , how bad are the things you cannot see - and - remember a surveyor will not find all of the faults on a boat, you can only hope he finds the more serious ones (a surveyor I had missed some important things which cost me over £20,000 to correct, having bought the boat. You have no come-back on the surveyor)

[MrsM]

1 hour ago, Noobasaurus Rex said:

Haven’t found anything yet.

 

Saw an absolute corker, fairly new boat at a very good price and ticket every box but owner wanted a quick sale and would give preference to buyers not wanting a survey... so as a newbie will probably not pursue any longer...

 

Out of interest, would an engine bay swimming in water and detritus be an instant no no or just something that would need addressing assuming the engine seemed to be sound?

 

Also, does a hull need to be grit-blasted for a proper survey? Seems to be scratching off blacking and taking measurements could miss some serious pitting...?

I can only speak from my limited experience as a newbie. Our surveyor did a brief in-water survey that we weren't around for then came back when the boat was out of the water and did the hull survey. The boatyard scraped the hull as soon as we were out so it was pretty easy for the surveyor to take multiple depth readings. We had arranged with the seller that we would go ahead and get the boat blacked if the survey was clear and we were continuing with the purchase, otherwise it was going straight back in the water, unless the seller decided to have it blacked. We were lucky to have a 6-7 hour cruise to the lift-out marina which gave us time to check out as many of the services as we could.  Some that the in-water survey said were OK were actually faulty and we went through everything in detail with the surveyor after he had finished with the hull. From this experience I would urge you to check as much as you can in person, don't just rely on someone else. For example the pumpout loo was supposed to be working but actually flooded the bathroom when I tested it (fortunately before trying to use it!). Our boat was empty for a year before we bought it (previous owner sadly passed away) and in good need of sort out. Hopefully you will find your boat soon. Think you are very wise walking away from a seller trying to avoid a survey; even though they will not necessarily tell you everything at least you will have the chance to discuss the boat with an experienced person. 

[Tony Brooks]

14 hours ago, Noobasaurus Rex said:

Out of interest, would an engine bay swimming in water and detritus be an instant no no or just something that would need addressing assuming the engine seemed to be sound?

 

 

In my case no it would not, it would just be an indication of poor/no maintenance. If the vendor seemed to have difficulty bending or did not seem very practical it could just be a gradual build up over time but I would make it plain that it would devalue the boat in my eyes. Most "oil" in an engine drip tray of bilge is usually a very few mm of oil drips, or topping up spills and fuel drips on top of a lot of water so is often looks worse than it is. I would stir it up a bit to see if the water appeared to contain antifreeze because that is likely to indicate an ongoing leak.

[transplant]

On 29/07/2020 at 09:11, Athy said:

My instant (and of course non-professional) reaction is that the first figure would be a 3, and that the second figure would be low.

Our last boat had a Liverpool shell and there was nothing wrong with it except that, when ABNB sold it for us, they discovered that one side deck was an inch wider than the other. WE'd never noticed, so it can'tr have been very important.

@Athy Asymmetrical gunwales?

[Athy]

1 hour ago, transplant said:

@Athy Asymmetrical gunwales?

Yes, 4" on one side and 5" on the other.

[The Welsh Cruiser]

On 08/08/2020 at 19:55, Alan de Enfield said:

If you did, not only would you be paying £100's extra to get it grit blasted, you'd be paying £100's more to have it recoated (even if you didn't buy it)

 

Not having a 100% thickness survey is a risk, but most boats leak / wear in similar areas so the surveyor should concentrate on those areas.

 

If the engine hole is fne bilge. ull of oily water it would indicate a lack of maintenance - if he hasn't bothered to clean up what you can see , how bad are the things you cannot see - and - remember a surveyor will not find all of the faults on a boat, you can only hope he finds the more serious ones (a surveyor I had missed some important things which cost me over £20,000 to correct, having bought the boat. You have no come-back on the surveyor)

Unless your boat is a Hallmark, as mine is, and rainwater landing on the steps down to the cabin is drained into the engine bilge. The only time there was no water down there since I've owned the boat was during the drought we had 2 years ago. The water shouldn't be oily though, I agree.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Unless your boat is a Hallmark, as mine is, and rainwater landing on the steps down to the cabin is drained into the engine bilge. The only time there was no water down there since I've owned the boat was during the drought we had 2 years ago. The water shouldn't be oily though, I agree.

We had a Hallmark (Millenium), it was manufactured in 1999 and we bought in 2000 as 'sunk recovered'. It was totally unused, the pots and pans were still in their polythene, the oven door was still taped shut etc etc.

(It had 'sunk' on its mooring at Whixhall marina over the Winter 99/00, and as we were locals we bought it and kept it there - we were actually negotiating to buy the Marina when BWML made a better offer so you can tell how long ago it was).

 

The drains had blocked and the rain had run down the steps into the engine compartment, building up and up until it pulled the back end under the water.

New alternator, new starter motor and a bit of TLC on the engine and it was good to go.

We put a Pram-Hood onto it so never had the problem again.

 

A strip back to bare metal and a new paint job and had a couple of years fun before selling it on (at a profit - including all the refurb costs) and I saw it at Whilton a couple of years ago and it sold for more than we sold it for - buy the right boat at the right price and you'll never make a loss on boats.

 

 

 

 

[The Welsh Cruiser]

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

We had a Hallmark (Millenium), it was manufactured in 1999 and we bought in 2000 as 'sunk recovered'. It was totally unused, the pots and pans were still in their polythene, the oven door was still taped shut etc etc.

(It had 'sunk' on its mooring at Whixhall marina over the Winter 99/00, and as we were locals we bought it and kept it there - we were actually negotiating to buy the Marina when BWML made a better offer so you can tell how long ago it was).

 

The drains had blocked and the rain had run down the steps into the engine compartment, building up and up until it pulled the back end under the water.

New alternator, new starter motor and a bit of TLC on the engine and it was good to go.

We put a Pram-Hood onto it so never had the problem again.

 

A strip back to bare metal and a new paint job and had a couple of years fun before selling it on (at a profit - including all the refurb costs) and I saw it at Whilton a couple of years ago and it sold for more than we sold it for - buy the right boat at the right price and you'll never make a loss on boats.

 

 

 

 

Indeed. Mine is 1998 I paid £18K for it 7 years ago. I'll be selling it soon it's been valued at £25K by a brokerage. I've spent a fair amount on improvements and upgrades mind.

[Noobasaurus Rex]

Ok so have found a boat

 

Have got some names from some searching on canal world, but any recommendations for marine engineers in London who do surveys?

 

is it possible to have RCR come do their engine diagnostic pre-purchase?

 

Thanks for the help so far!