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Advice on boat valuation


Noobasaurus Rex

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Hello everyone, first post ever so be kind!

Having decided to follow the masses and buy a narrowboat in this very buoyant market, I am going to be annoying and ask about boat valuations as a complete noob. Found one I like the look of in a marina so will remain cagey on name / precise location (it's up north) etc but details are as follows:

  1. 50' Liverpool Boat built in 1992, traditional stern, 10/6/4 with reported pitting<1mm in last survey (and yes I would be getting my own in the case of being serious about it).
  2. Regularly blacked and anoded, valid BSS.
  3. Beta Marine engine (can't remember which model) that started from cold immediately with the tiniest single whiff of smoke. Recently been used as a CC'er.
  4. Immaculate engine bay and gas locker.
  5. Outside paint job looks good.
  6. No obvious signs of water damage to any walls or panelling.
  7. Oven / fridge / stove / bathroom all look good, good amount of solar panelling on roof and batteries only about a year old. No inverter but that suits me fine! Decent sized SS water tank.
  8. Invoices and receipts available for recent electrical and plumbing work.
  9. Internal fixtures (cabinets and such) are... dated. Layout is mostly fine but would be looking to make it much more 'open plan,' keep the appliances but remove a large amount of cupboards and sofas / seating in the galley / saloon and do a lot of redecorating.

 

I forgot to check the cabin bilge for water / corrosion, or indeed how the cabin is insulated (and that this insulation is actually installed everywhere!), make and age of gearbox or what state any water pumps were in. However the engine and other 'systems' looked to be extremely well maintained and I believe this to be the case across the whole boat, although of course I would look to confirm as much of this as humanly possible.

 

 

My question is that if I believe the fundamentals of this boat to be solid (and they may not be, advice appreciated!) how much should I be budgeting to replace cabinets / fixed seating areas if I were to have a stab at doing it myself? Are the interiors of these things amenable to being removed if all the plumbing / electrics are solid? Is it ludicrously expensive if my DIY skills aren't up to installing cupboards?

Also, million dollar question, based off the above (and that's all the info I can remember) what sort of price should I be looking at? Looking for ball-park / initial offer figures to begin any negotiation.

 

EDIT: Looking for a liveaboard

Many thanks in advance.

Edited by Noobasaurus Rex
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Welcome aboard this den of iniquity and inexactitudes.

 

Boats aren't like cars where the is a general market price - it's more what you are prepared to pay / can get away with.

One thing that stikes me is tha I don't think a 10mm bottom plate was common in 1992 - certainly not form Liverpool boats, but I expect somebody will put me right...

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12 minutes ago, Noobasaurus Rex said:

Hello everyone, first post ever so be kind!

Having decided to follow the masses and buy a narrowboat in this very buoyant market, I am going to be annoying and ask about boat valuations as a complete noob. Found one I like the look of in a marina so will remain cagey on name / precise location (it's up north) etc but details are as follows:

  1. 50' Liverpool Boat built in 1992, traditional stern, 10/6/4 with reported pitting<1mm in last survey (and yes I would be getting my own in the case of being serious about it).
  2. Regularly blacked and anoded, valid BSS.
  3. Beta Marine engine (can't remember which model) that started from cold immediately with the tiniest single whiff of smoke. Recently been used as a CC'er.
  4. Immaculate engine bay and gas locker.
  5. Outside paint job looks good.
  6. No obvious signs of water damage to any walls or panelling.
  7. Oven / fridge / stove / bathroom all look good, good amount of solar panelling on roof and batteries only about a year old. No inverter but that suits me fine! Decent sized SS water tank.
  8. Invoices and receipts available for recent electrical and plumbing work.
  9. Internal fixtures (cabinets and such) are... dated. Layout is mostly fine but would be looking to make it much more 'open plan,' keep the appliances but remove a large amount of cupboards and sofas / seating in the galley / saloon and do a lot of redecorating.

 

I forgot to check the cabin bilge for water / corrosion, or indeed how the cabin is insulated (and that this insulation is actually installed everywhere!), make and age of gearbox or what state any water pumps were in. However the engine and other 'systems' looked to be extremely well maintained and I believe this to be the case across the whole boat, although of course I would look to confirm as much of this as humanly possible.

 

 

My question is that if I believe the fundamentals of this boat to be solid (and they may not be, advice appreciated!) how much should I be budgeting to replace cabinets / fixed seating areas if I were to have a stab at doing it myself? Are the interiors of these things amenable to being removed if all the plumbing / electrics are solid? Is it ludicrously expensive if my DIY skills aren't up to installing cupboards?

Also, million dollar question, based off the above (and that's all the info I can remember) what sort of price should I be looking at? Looking for ball-park / initial offer figures to begin any negotiation.

Many thanks in advance.

I will kick off and say around £30-£35K for the boat. (But hard to tell without some pics, which I understand why you haven't posted so far)

 

No idea on the fit out costs as that will very much depend on the quality of materials and finish you are going for.

Edited by The Happy Nomad
Misread the date of build.
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Thank you for replies so far, obviously this is all contingent on actually asking the questions I forgot to ask previously i.e. see the most recent survey / inspect cabin bilge etc. and get some solid answers.

 

Let's say I wanted to gut the saloon / galley (but keep the appliances) and refit with lowish-end budget materials and a lick of paint... what sort of labour costs would I be looking at for the fitting? I suppose the question is how long would this take a professional to do, and is it something achievable by someone with a small but burgeoning DIY skillset.

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Liverpool hull or Liverpool fitout as well?  I would never buy a Liverpool hull, seen too many bad ones. Poor rudder design depending on through bolts that shear.

If fitout, check insulation throughout especially the roof, some poorly done, some none at all! 10mm baseplate normal, it will never have been painted when new.

Bow water tank? Usually  just the hull. may need extensive cleaning and bitumen lining.

 

£20k to £25k if its in good order and you really like it / want it but from what you say you intend practically a refit so maybe its not the boat for you?

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6 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Liverpool hull or Liverpool fitout as well?  I would never buy a Liverpool hull, seen too many bad ones. Poor rudder design depending on through bolts that shear.

If fitout, check insulation throughout especially the roof, some poorly done, some none at all! 10mm baseplate normal, it will never have been painted when new.

Bow water tank? Usually  just the hull. may need extensive cleaning and bitumen lining.

 

£20k to £25k if its in good order and you really like it / want it but from what you say you intend practically a refit so maybe its not the boat for you?


Not sure who did the original fitout, perhaps the original owner...
Insulation is on the list to check as I have read about LB boats and poor insulation

When you say never been painted, are you referring to the cabin bilge?

Water tank is a large SS affair I think

 

and thanks!
 

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Just now, Noobasaurus Rex said:


Not sure who did the original fitout, perhaps the original owner...
Insulation is on the list to check as I have read about LB boats and poor insulation

When you say never been painted, are you referring to the cabin bilge?

Water tank is a large SS affair I think

 

and thanks!
 

Underside of base plate. Seldom blacked.

If you pay £20k and then rip out and refit, you will never get anything near the total cost back if you sold as soon as completed, its an old boat. Self fit outs are harder to sell.

It will have zero pedigree.

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My instant (and of course non-professional) reaction is that the first figure would be a 3, and that the second figure would be low.

Our last boat had a Liverpool shell and there was nothing wrong with it except that, when ABNB sold it for us, they discovered that one side deck was an inch wider than the other. WE'd never noticed, so it can'tr have been very important.

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6 minutes ago, Noobasaurus Rex said:

Ok, well let's just say the asking price would appear to be a tad high in that case...

Thanks though, this forum is a goldmine!

Asking prices often are, so that there is scope to lower them in negotiations. If you advertise your car for sale at £5,000 you can't say to the buyer, "Oh actually I'll take £6,000", but reverse the figures and you could.

 

Of the varying descriptions of CWDF which I've read lately, that is one of the pleasantest, thank you.

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22 minutes ago, Noobasaurus Rex said:

Ok, well let's just say the asking price would appear to be a tad high in that case...

Thanks though, this forum is a goldmine!

As Athy says the asking price is a target the seller is aiming for not an end result that you and they will possibly eventually agree on.

 

The best thing you as a buyer can do is find as much wrong with the boat (that is fixable) and use that as a lever to get the price down. Even then your seller/broker may say 'oh but that is reflected in the price' but don't get duped into paying more than what it's worth. This is where a good survey can come into play or at the very least a look over the boat by a knowledgeable 'boat buying buddy'.

 

The only time I personally would pay the full asking price would be if the boat was just about perfect in every way (unlikely) and it was a layout, style and fit out that I really really wanted (possible).

 

 

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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2 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Even then your seller/broker may say 'Oh but that is reflected in the price'.

 

 

Does this translate as "Damn, I didn't think he'd notice that"?

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16 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

You mean mostly useless dirt with the odd nugget of value? :giggles:

 


The rabbit holes are indeed very deep, although I do now have a much better understanding of the Transport Act 1962.

And by a tad high, I mean a reduction of 25% would still seem to be on the steeper side of things...

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Liverpool were not a top of the range builder ? and this boat is almost 30 years old. 1mm pitting on a 30 year old boat would be very good so do get your own survey.

Its sometimes said that if it floats, is not about to sink, is habitable and tidy, stuff works and the engine goes, then its probably going to sell for a minimum of £30,000. Maybe just a little more if its nicely painted and really clean etc.  but then again this is an old boat.

If your refit is not going to disturb the wood lining or require major electrical/plumbing changes then it should be relatively easy. Creating a big open space and filling it with carefully chosen free standing furniture is quite a good option for a liveaboard boat, you could maybe do this yourself.

 

.................Dave

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1 minute ago, Noobasaurus Rex said:


The rabbit holes are indeed very deep, although I do now have a much better understanding of the Transport Act 1962.

And by a tad high, I mean a reduction of 25% would still seem to be on the steeper side of things...

It's difficult to gauge/justify our estimated 'valuations' without seeing the boat but it sounds as if it has been listed 'optimistically'.

 

There appears to be a bit of a sellers market at the moment so I suspect the seller is trying to capitalise on that.

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1 hour ago, Noobasaurus Rex said:

Hello everyone, first post ever so be kind!

Having decided to follow the masses and buy a narrowboat in this very buoyant market, I am going to be annoying and ask about boat valuations as a complete noob. Found one I like the look of in a marina so will remain cagey on name / precise location (it's up north) etc but details are as follows:

  1. 50' Liverpool Boat built in 1992, traditional stern, 10/6/4 with reported pitting<1mm in last survey (and yes I would be getting my own in the case of being serious about it).
  2. Regularly blacked and anoded, valid BSS.
  3. Beta Marine engine (can't remember which model) that started from cold immediately with the tiniest single whiff of smoke. Recently been used as a CC'er.
  4. Immaculate engine bay and gas locker.
  5. Outside paint job looks good.
  6. No obvious signs of water damage to any walls or panelling.
  7. Oven / fridge / stove / bathroom all look good, good amount of solar panelling on roof and batteries only about a year old. No inverter but that suits me fine! Decent sized SS water tank.
  8. Invoices and receipts available for recent electrical and plumbing work.
  9. Internal fixtures (cabinets and such) are... dated. Layout is mostly fine but would be looking to make it much more 'open plan,' keep the appliances but remove a large amount of cupboards and sofas / seating in the galley / saloon and do a lot of redecorating.

 

I forgot to check the cabin bilge for water / corrosion, or indeed how the cabin is insulated (and that this insulation is actually installed everywhere!), make and age of gearbox or what state any water pumps were in. However the engine and other 'systems' looked to be extremely well maintained and I believe this to be the case across the whole boat, although of course I would look to confirm as much of this as humanly possible.

 

 

My question is that if I believe the fundamentals of this boat to be solid (and they may not be, advice appreciated!) how much should I be budgeting to replace cabinets / fixed seating areas if I were to have a stab at doing it myself? Are the interiors of these things amenable to being removed if all the plumbing / electrics are solid? Is it ludicrously expensive if my DIY skills aren't up to installing cupboards?

Also, million dollar question, based off the above (and that's all the info I can remember) what sort of price should I be looking at? Looking for ball-park / initial offer figures to begin any negotiation.

 

EDIT: Looking for a liveaboard

Many thanks in advance.

How much have you got and how do you define liveaboard. If I can find a more suitable boat for myself,I might sell mine, if I end up "in credit".

I bought mine as a 'liveaboard', but it was designed to be on shorepower, so I have spent a few thousand quid on making it independant of mains.

1 hour ago, Noobasaurus Rex said:

Thank you for replies so far, obviously this is all contingent on actually asking the questions I forgot to ask previously i.e. see the most recent survey / inspect cabin bilge etc. and get some solid answers.

 

Let's say I wanted to gut the saloon / galley (but keep the appliances) and refit with lowish-end budget materials and a lick of paint... what sort of labour costs would I be looking at for the fitting? I suppose the question is how long would this take a professional to do, and is it something achievable by someone with a small but burgeoning DIY skillset.

Don't put anything cheap on a boat. Replace doors in galley with solid wood.

Modern kitchen stuff is mdf blotting paper.

If you can't hang a door, learn how to do it using good quality hinges and catches.

A major re_fit is not for you, if you want 'a wow factor' see Thetford sinks etc, else buy a tin of white from B&Q, and repeat every six months.

PS I wouldnot pay that money for that boat.

Edited by LadyG
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With a 30 year old boat (over 25 years) your insurers are probably going to demand a full structural survey anyway, at which point you can ask your surveyor for a valuation, and, having seen the boat he will be in a far better position to give a price than anyone on the forum is.

 

From the age and make, I wouldn't be paying over £30k for it and would start negotiating downwards from there.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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You did not post the asking price for the boat you are considering so giving an opinion on value is difficult.

No idea how many boats you have looked at or indeed your budget so try this unless you have already, go to Apollo Duck and enter Liverpool Boats in the search box, have a look at what is on offer and at what price, that should give you some idea if the boat you are considering is reasonable value for money.

I have said this a few times recently, a boat just like anything else is worth what you are prepared to pay for it, so decide your budget, stick to it, make sure your head rules your heart and do the research. It is so easy to be convinced that life afloat is the solution to all ill's, it is not, if it works for you then it can be wonderful, equally you could spend a lot of money and a few months later decide you hate the lifestyle. I know there have been a number of TV programmes with "celebs" telling their audience how wonderful it is but that's in the summer, on a hire boat and they are being paid, try it in mid winter when stepping on the towpath leaves you ankle deep in mud, or so cold you are iced in and the toilet is full. Finally be aware the purchase price is only the start, BOAT as everyone who owns one will testify means "Bung on another Thousand" or a "boat is a hole in the water into which you throw money" either is true.

I hope it works for you and good luck.

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I won't comment on price.

 

However, you say you want to make it more 'open plan, removing cupboards...'.

 

Before you do that, I suggest that you pack up everything you need for a few weeks aboard (I'm guess you aren't intending to live aboard). Clothes, food, tools, bedding, towels, toilet paper, cleaning stuff; everything you would want. Everything.

 

Now put it all away in the boat. If there is spare storage, then think about removing it.

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18 hours ago, Halsey said:

£35-40k if you are already talking about a refit - its over 20 years old and 50ft so not in the "most popular/sought after" bracket

 

Since posting I've done a bit of research on Liverpools for you and £30k seems to be about the going rate for good ones - the size and age are working for you so if after all the advice you still like it start low - if you do move forward make sure you don't get into the deposit trap of only getting your money back if a certain value of work is identified - all the various pre purchase stages are potentially fraught with "trips" - lots of advice available here so keep asking questions.......

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17 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

With a 30 year old boat (over 25 years) your insurers are probably going to demand a full structural survey anyway, at which point you can ask your surveyor for a valuation, and, having seen the boat he will be in a far better position to give a price than anyone on the forum is.

 

From the age and make, I wouldn't be paying over £30k for it and would start negotiating downwards from there.

 

Mine is a 1984 Mike Heywood. Had a survey done when I bought the boat. I was surprised that it took the insurance company another 16 years to ask for another - two years ago, and also a valuation; without which, the insurance company would only have wanted to offer third party cover. 

 

If I happened to be selling the boat, I wouldn't budge on the asking price, for the buyer's concerns about how much reworking they'd be considering. If a boat is basically sound, it's the buyer's problem to judge if the boat is worth stripping out to refashion fittings. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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