Popular Post IanD Posted July 27, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 Following an incensed outburst of mine last night which has rightly been removed by the moderators, I thought I'd post my reply in the hope that this might prompt a calmer discussion about what I feel is becoming an increasing problem on CWDF. This used to be a friendly place for boaters new and old to ask questions and get answers, and a mine of knowledge about the history of the canals and the boats on them. It's moving towards somewhere much less friendly, where anything that challenges the entrenched views of some results in a shower of criticism which often rapidly descends into schadenfreude and personal abuse -- playing the man, not the ball. And I'm not going to mince words here, it's also clear that most of this comes from a few people who are effectively poisoning the atmosphere on the forum. I'm not so concerned about myself -- I'm a big boy, I can normally take robust argument and even insults without throwing a hissy fit, though recent events explain why I finally blew my top this time. I can deal with this trend by blocking people I find obnoxious, and of course they can do the same to me if they want to. My worry is about the loss to CWDF of both experienced posters and new members due to the way that discussions and in particular personal comments on posts seem to be going. Am I the only one who thinks this is a problem? If not, it would be a shame to see CWDF go the way some other forums have done and die slowly while becoming an angry echo chamber ? Dear Athy I do apologise for this, I was just incensed at some of the personal comments on the thread and boiled over after a couple of beers. There seem to be more and more cases recently of people using personal abuse rather than reasoned discussion to try and "win" what they see as an argument (on many subjects) where they're in the right, and where anyone daring to disagree is obviously morally corrupt and therefore ripe for abuse -- and having spent some time looking back over various threads where this has happened, it's obvious that this mostly comes from a small number of people, I'm sure you know who they are as well as I do (because I've blocked many of them). I can't help feeling that this has not only driven some knowledgeable and experienced posters away from CWDF but is putting off new people joining when their first post is shot down on flames for one reason or another -- and there's even sometimes crowing on the lines of "hah, we taught them a lesson, we've had the last word", which I suspect sadly means they've given up in disgust and gone elsewhere. Which is a shame because there's still a huge amount of knowledge and experience which helpful people on the forum are happy to impart, and people leaving reduce this pool (if they're experienced) or lose access to it (if they're new). CWDF didn't use to be like this when I joined back in 2012, it was friendlier and less combative and abusive. Things seemed to take a turn for the worse before/during/after the Brexit referendum, and have done so again since Covid-19 hit -- maybe the first is a symptom of increased "us and them" division in the country, maybe the second is because some people have more time on their hands to angrily hammer away at a keyboard and tell other people how wrong they are. It would be a shame if this continues, because it could be the start of a long slippery slope with CWDF ending up as a small number of angry people shouting into an otherwise empty echo chamber, who think they've "won" because nobody answers back. I've seen this happen with other Internet forums and discussion groups over the years, and I really hope it doesn't happen to CWDF. Best wishes Ian 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post haggis Posted July 27, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 Oh, how I agree with you! I hate the way some members are using the forum now. Members on both sides of political divides seem to take delight in making posts which they know will encourage the "other side" to respond and I just fail to understand why people who are presumably adults keep doing this. Ok we don't all always agree with what is said but what is to be gained on a canal forum by shouting the odds, over and over again. Would it be too much to ask for members to back of a bit and remind themselves that this is a CANAL forum and not a political soap box? We have lost so many members who were willing and able to give others the benefit of their experience and what have we got in return? A forum which has just become a playground where the big kids feel they have to shout louder than anyone else haggis 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bizzard Posted July 27, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 I used to post heaps of rubbish on ere, but most of my fans seem to have gorn , It is quite boring now. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanD Posted July 27, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, bizzard said: I used to post heaps of rubbish on ere, but most of my fans seem to have gorn , It is quite boring now. Please don't stop -- I love your rubbish, it's not only funny (and not abusive...) but makes more sense than some of the rest of the posts ? Edited July 27, 2020 by IanD 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haggis Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 Just now, bizzard said: I used to post heaps of rubbish on ere, but most of my fans seem to have gorn , It is quite boring now. I miss your rubbish, Bizzard ? and all the canal related posts. Perhaps if some members wind their necks in, we might get a good forum back again. Hopefully it has not sunk too low and will recover, haggis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Vectis Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 3 minutes ago, bizzard said: I used to post heaps of rubbish on ere, but most of my fans seem to have gorn , It is quite boring now. Please don't stop. To paraphrase a line from the G&S operetta Patience: 'Rubbish, perhaps. But such precious rubbish!' ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post nicknorman Posted July 27, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 I think it depends on which aspects of the forum you frequent. Personally I tend to stick to technical subjects, and in those I haven’t really noticed a deterioration. There has always been an element of lack of patience with new posters, I don’t think this has got worse. What has perhaps got worse is the prevalence of new posters whose first post might be something like “I’ve just bought a boat to live on but the engine isn’t working, what is wrong with it?” and they then get a bit grumpy when asked for details. In other words, an increase in “entitlement” from new posters. IMO it is completely pointless visiting the political threads unless one’s sole aim is to have an argument for the sake of it. Political views are entrenched, and yes increasingly so since Brexit. You ain’t going to get anyone to change their views so it is pointless to try. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizzard Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 3 minutes ago, haggis said: I miss your rubbish, Bizzard ? and all the canal related posts. Perhaps if some members wind their necks in, we might get a good forum back again. Hopefully it has not sunk too low and will recover, haggis Thank yew haggis. I remember when I first popped up on here, 2011 I think it was. I took very heavy scathing remarks for my first few posts, but I admit some had not much to do with canals really, even my avatar was riduculed and called hideous by a few, but I struggled on in my abnormal bonkers style. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree monkey Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 1 minute ago, bizzard said: Thank yew haggis. I remember when I first popped up on here, 2011 I think it was. I took very heavy scathing remarks for my first few posts, but I admit some had not much to do with canals really, even my avatar was riduculed and called hideous by a few, but I struggled on in my abnormal bonkers style. Often mad, never bad and an absolute world of insane ideas, plus plenty of practical advice when needed, I for one enjoy your contributions 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizzard Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 Blimey, thanks folks, I've gone all red with embarras, can't spell it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 26 minutes ago, IanD said: This used to be a friendly place for boaters ................................. "Edited 2 hours ago by AthyRemoving unacceptable language." ?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanD Posted July 27, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, nicknorman said: I think it depends on which aspects of the forum you frequent. Personally I tend to stick to technical subjects, and in those I haven’t really noticed a deterioration. There has always been an element of lack of patience with new posters, I don’t think this has got worse. What has perhaps got worse is the prevalence of new posters whose first post might be something like “I’ve just bought a boat to live on but the engine isn’t working, what is wrong with it?” and they then get a bit grumpy when asked for details. In other words, an increase in “entitlement” from new posters. IMO it is completely pointless visiting the political threads unless one’s sole aim is to have an argument for the sake of it. Political views are entrenched, and yes increasingly so since Brexit. You ain’t going to get anyone to change their views so it is pointless to try. The problem is that exactly the same attitude is infecting the non-political forums too -- something starts as a discussion about [xxx -- almost anything] and ends up with insults being thrown around instead of facts -- or opinions, which are perfectly valid and don't always agree and shouldn't do. Here's my latest reply to the moderators: Hi Mike CWDF was never perfect but this does seem to have got worse recently, in particular Brexit triggered a perfect sh*tstorm of abuse that's still going on -- just look at how often some people (always the same ones) wheel out words like Remoaner and snowflake as soon as they think they're "losing" an argument (about anything) -- usually because they've presented some dodgy alternative facts and been called out on it. It's like Godwin's Law only even more depressing... I do have faith in CWDF, I think it's a great forum, and I'd like it to stay that way, but preferably with fewer of the kind of postings I'm referring to that either wind people up or drive them away. I realise that the principle of free speech applies and the moderators can't (and shouldn't) police every post, but is does seem to me that a small number of people -- less than 10 by my count -- are responsible for the vast majority of the posts that cause such dissension and anger. It's the equivalent of a few people ruining the atmosphere in a room by farting loudly, deliberately and often -- yes it gets them plenty of attention, but the end result is that more reasonable people walk out of the room and don't come back. You can't ban farting, but maybe if it's made socially unacceptable enough people will try and stop doing it so obnoxiously? Or maybe some people will just see the reaction they've succeeded in getting (which is what they seem to want) and eat more beans... ? It'll be interesting to see what the responses to my post about the subject are... Cheers Ian Edited July 27, 2020 by IanD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 24 minutes ago, bizzard said: I used to post heaps of rubbish on ere, but most of my fans seem to have gorn , It is quite boring now. Still here, still a fan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Awayonmyboat Posted July 27, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 I'm a relatively new member. When I joined I was quite shocked at the level of vitriol shown in some posts and the bad tempered attitude of some. The old regularly comment on the lack of manners in the young but here it often appears to be the other way round - some members who have obviously been cruising many years appear to have forgotten they once did not know everything and delight in being grumpy old folks. It took me awhile to realise there was another side of the coin, namely the huge amount of high quality practical help some members are willing to provide day after day. Every forum lives or dies dependent on its ability to recruit and retain new members. It would be good if some could remember this and be a little less argumentative for the sake of it. 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanD Posted July 27, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Midnight said: "Edited 2 hours ago by AthyRemoving unacceptable language." ?????? I blew my top and used some expletives. Being accused being willing to endanger others and being cavalier with their safety when you've left the house four times since March -- including once for my mum's death in a care home where we couldn't visit her or see her so she died alone, and once for her funeral -- made me see red and I lost it. Edited July 27, 2020 by IanD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen-in-Wellies Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 I for one would never have learnt about the versatility of meccano without @bizzard. Always enjoy your posts. I almost never read, let alone post the political stuff. Mostly limit my posts to techy and silly subjects. This one is an exception of course. Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanD Posted July 27, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 Just now, Jen-in-Wellies said: I for one would never have learnt about the versatility of meccano without @bizzard. Always enjoy your posts. I almost never read, let alone post the political stuff. Mostly limit my posts to techy and silly subjects. This one is an exception of course. Jen If the abuse stayed on the political threads then it would be easy to ignore it, but it's spreading everywhere, largely emanating from a few prolific gas generators... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix_V Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 It is true that some contributors cannot distinguish between abuse and argument but I filter those out and still enjoy both political, general and technical discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
restlessnomad Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 I missed the fun perhaps but OP is as much an offender as anybody else here( if not abusive, unnecessary combative, in my observation)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizzard Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 8 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said: I for one would never have learnt about the versatility of meccano without @bizzard. Always enjoy your posts. I almost never read, let alone post the political stuff. Mostly limit my posts to techy and silly subjects. This one is an exception of course. Jen In my dreams I'm still receiving my copies of ''Meccano Magazine'' from the newsagent ''Beestons'' once a month at 1/3d, the cost is added to my dads ''News of the World'' and Nosegay baccy account. RIP Frank Hornby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyG Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, bizzard said: I used to post heaps of rubbish on ere, but most of my fans seem to have gorn , It is quite boring now. Have you runout of anecdotes, antidotes and have joined the CWDF Establishment aka nit pickers? I can't belive that, PS is cat OK? 8 minutes ago, restlessnomad said: I missed the fun perhaps but OP is as much an offender as anybody else here( if not abusive, unnecessary combative, in my observation)... Lol Edited July 27, 2020 by LadyG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 11 minutes ago, restlessnomad said: I missed the fun perhaps but OP is as much an offender as anybody else here( if not abusive, unnecessary combative, in my observation)... I didnt see the post he refers to either and to be fair its mainly as he says the Political threads that peeps including myself get irate on. I havnt seen much, if any deterioration on other topics. Obvisously Biz is a bloomin eeejut and should be banned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post IanD Posted July 27, 2020 Author Popular Post Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, restlessnomad said: I missed the fun perhaps but OP is as much an offender as anybody else here( if not abusive, unnecessary combative, in my observation)... Guilty as charged on being combative, if I have facts to back me up I won't give in just because somebody else shouts louder. Equally if I'm shown to be wrong -- by verifiable facts or expert opinion from somebody who really *does* know what they're talking about -- I'm perfectly happy to admit it and change my mind, that's called education. And as I said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with vigorous discussion about subjects where people hold strong opinions, that's life. What I certainly never do (or try not to) is to resort to name-calling and personal abuse or accusing somebody of being something they're not, because that's a sign that you've lost the argument. But sometimes it all gets a bit too much and I lash out in frustration, because nobody's perfect... ? [I could also point out that restlessnomad's post is a perfect example of playing the man, not the ball...] Edited July 27, 2020 by IanD 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 46 minutes ago, bizzard said: I used to post heaps of rubbish on ere, but most of my fans seem to have gorn , It is quite boring now. In amongst that rubbish that I usually found entertaining there was often a gem of a post, especially in respect of near obsolete engines and equipment. keep it coming please 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted July 27, 2020 Report Share Posted July 27, 2020 1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said: In amongst that rubbish that I usually found entertaining there was often a gem of a post, especially in respect of near obsolete engines and equipment. keep it coming please Hes irreplaceable and a great asset to the forum..................for an eejut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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