Have BMC engines "had their day"

[Alan de Enfield]

There seems to be hardly a day goes by when someone is not posting about problems with their BMC 1.5 / 1.8, is it simply the age of these engines or is it more 'boater generated' ?

 

Is it because these engines were used in boats which have now become 'entry level boats' and the current / new owners have little experience or knowledge of engine maintenance (being used to modern cars that you just turn the key and go).

 

Is it simply a lack of preventative maintenance or, as the title, are these engines 'past their best' due to 10,000's of hours use running at little over tickover.

[Tony Brooks]

In their day these engines were arguably the most popular in hire boats of all types. I did hear that RCR thought there were more 1.5s and 1.8s than small Lister air cooled on the inland network. Those being the two most numerous engine types.  I don't really know when marinised 1.5s appeared but I suspect in was the early 1960s so some may be 70 years old. In my oppinion in their day they were a better marinisaton than the Perkins 4-xxx series and spares were certainly far easier to obtain that for the Perkins - every town had a BMC dealer.

 

I think you have correctly identified the problems. Extreme age, lack of maintenance, owners who were not brought up have mechanical aptitude and sympathy and so on. Add to the sheer number of them around and you get more problems with them that anything else. I bet in 50 years time we will find Beta cropping up regularly with problems.

 

They are only approaching the "had their day" time because of pollution regs, lack of people with familiarity (particularly in respect of the injector pump) and the lack of spares, again mainly related to the injector pump but other thngs like some water pumps are unobtainable.

[Rose Narrowboats]

All the injector pump spares are still available - however at the cost of them very few people will spend the money on a properly reconditioned pump.

 

The so called "reconditioned" pumps commonly available for around £300 pounds are no more than a clean, new seal kit and calibrate as best as possible given that most of the moving parts are now well past their wear tolerance. Some work okay, some don't.

 

The water pump situation has improved now - I think all variants are available as pattern parts.

 

I doubt (even given the availbility of the fuel to run them on) Kubota's will be around in 50 years time as they are just not as rebuildable as the BMCs are/were.

[Bee]

There is much to be said for them, if you were brought up on Mini engines or Morris Minors they are not too scary to take apart and put back together again. There are many Daf engines in dutch barges still going and the same things apply, they can be rebuilt endless times and as long as spares are available they are a reliable unit. Thing is that all elderly engines (and people) need more input to keep them going and people are used to things just working when you turn the key so the BMC engines really are fading out slowly. People used to marinise their own engines, pull a 1.5 out of a J4 van, bung a gearbox on it and off you go. These days if you do that you would go for maybe a Peugeot or Transit engine and of course then there is the emissions problems.

[Tracy D'arth]

If the pollution regs had not killed production the 1.5D and 1.8D would still be made in Turkey and India.

 

Though very old the design from 1944 was a very advanced engine in its day. Millions were made which is why there are still so many around. But they are all in older boats where the present owners know nothing of maintenance and only assume "you fit a new one" is the way but can't afford new so the poor engines are expected to run for ever on dirty fuel, the wrong and dirty oil, fouled fiters, without any servicing.

 

Most parts are still available, some still in manufacture, so they will be around for a while longer.

TD'

[Sir Nibble]

Once upon a time, diesel engines in vehicles needed thoughtful use. You would turn the key to preheat, count off a number of seconds arrived at by your own judgement of the ambient temperature and attempt a start. If it didn't go you gave it more heat and tried again. This was not the province of a trained technician, it was a basic life skill for operators of these engines. More and more people have demanded a "push button" operation and design has responded. Now diesel engines are almost indistinguishable from petrol and the old style engines are in boats. The operators have become de-skilled and you may as well ask them to light a fire with flint and tinder as to bleed air out of the system. What used to be basic operation has become vintage engineering for enthusiasts and these old engines just don't meet modern expectations.

[Alan de Enfield]

I guess that us old-fogies are a 'dying breed', brought up in the days when it took a week to get the car ready for its annual 70 mile trip to Skegness.

Check water. oil and belts, pump up tyres etc.

Battery 'water' levels checked at least once a week and the boot was always half-full of bottles of water, cans of oil and blankets (JIC)

 

When I started work, one of the old 'reps' was telling me "how lucky you youngster have it" and regaled us with motoring stories from the late 40's / early 50's. One that always stuck in my memory was his 'flat tyre'. The company did not spend any more money on company cars than necessary so the cars were not equipped with spare wheels. On this particular occasion keeping pumping it up every mile didn't work so he ended up getting the tyre half-way off the rim and stuffing it full of grass, getting it as tightly packed as possible and levering the tyre back on. It got him to the next town and a garage.

[Athy]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

When I started work, one of the old 'reps' was telling me "how lucky you youngster have it" and regaled us with motoring stories from the late 40's / early 50's. One that always stuck in my memory was his 'flat tyre'. The company did not spend any more money on company cars than necessary so the cars were not equipped with spare wheels. On this particular occasion keeping pumping it up every mile didn't work so he ended up getting the tyre half-way off the rim and stuffing it full of grass, getting it as tightly packed as possible and levering the tyre back on. It got him to the next town and a garage.

The wheel, if you see what I mean, has come full circle: some modern cars are not equipped with spare wheels. I can't see how the manufacturers think that this is a progressive move.

[LEO]

I had a boat with a BMC 1.5, lovely small engine, but they do need looking after and many were raw water cooled, lots have have 'bodged' repairs and all have their own 'temperamental' way of working. Most now require a good overhaul and once this is done, will if looked after carefully run for years.

 

Mine was raw water cooled originally which caused lots of problems, changed this to indirect cooling with a heat exchanger, cleaned all the water cooling channels on the engine, over hauled the cylinder head, new valves, guides, it ran like a dream.

 

They really are almost reaching classic status, spares can be tricky because there were so many variants, but overall there is not much to go wrong.

 

The other little problem mine had was never fill the oil more than half way on the dipstick or it would throw it out of the rear crankshaft oil seal.......

 

Oh! and so many people feel nuts on them should tightened with molegrips, I had a good collection of AF spanners from fiddling with BMC cars.

 

Now my boat is Gardner powered............it's too late to say 'long live' British engineering, it was killed of years ago by a lack of investment.

[koukouvagia]

I've had a reconditioned 1.8 coupled with an hydraulic drive on our boat for nearly thirty years.  I have to admit that I've had to replace various parts over the years: starter motor, alternator, diesel pump, raw water pump, etc.  I've also had the head skimmed, new valves etc., and rather bizarrely an alternator drive pulley which broke off.  It gets regular services and oil changes and I expect it'll see me out.

I have to say, it was far simpler maintaining a Seffle and a Kelvin!

 

The only thing I don't like about the 1.8 is bleeding the diesel.  Nine times out of ten it's a doddle.  The tenth time it can be a real hassle.

 

[magnetman]

I've got a pair of BMC 1.5D engines in my toy trawler. 

 

Perfect units for the boat they are low hours (1800hrs on clock but I don't know if they were new in 1985) clean running and few problems. 

 

The two problems I had was for some reason someone put in one incorrect (short) tappet screw on one engine and the other thing is if fuel level goes below top of engine a tiny bit of air can get in and cause starting problems. 

 

Keep tanks full is the obvious answer. Or possibly use a day tank arrangement.

 

I know how engines work and happy to do oil changes etc so they should be ok until they have to come out in favour of electric units. 

 

I really like them actually. Dry exhaust on keelcoolers they have a nice diesel rumble. Lovely. 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by magnetman

[Richard T]

We have a 1.8 in our boat. Its done 11000hours. It doesn't smoke and generally starts first time. It does get serviced regularly. I see no need to replace it - if it ain't broke don't fix it! It coupled to a PRM 260 gearbox with a good thrust bearing which is a good combination.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I’ve a 1.8 BMC 

With a PRM gear box

It runs lovely and sounds great. 
Starts first time and don’t smoke. 
I service it myself and learn to do other jobs as they arise.
I put a new drive plate in last week, which was a first for me. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There seems to be hardly a day goes by when someone is not posting about problems with their BMC 1.5 / 1.8, is it simply the age of these engines or is it more 'boater generated' ?

 

Is it because these engines were used in boats which have now become 'entry level boats' and the current / new owners have little experience or knowledge of engine maintenance (being used to modern cars that you just turn the key and go).

 

Is it simply a lack of preventative maintenance or, as the title, are these engines 'past their best' due to 10,000's of hours use running at little over tickover.

A number of things going on I think. This generation of engines, when they were in cars, once the car got to the banger stage, they were owned by people with not much money, who couldn't afford to pay someone to fix them. When it broke, which was often, you either learnt to fix it yourself, or with help from friends and family, or it went to the scrappy and you got another banger. Modern cars, even ones pushing twenty plus years, are still remarkably reliable. This is at the expense of being able to fix them easily yourself, so for the few occasions they do break, it is either a matter of swap out a part, or it goes to the scrappy as it is too expensive to repair. The knowledge of how to fix mechanical things is not as common as it used to be.

The impression I get is that these entry level boats are often being bought by younger people, new to the canals as accommodation. Likely they will not have had experience fixing anything of this sort before. Either they will not have been able to afford to run a car, or servicing and any repairs have been entrusted to a garage. This could be their first exposure to having to maintain and repair an engine of quite primitive design compared with modern ones. The knowledge of how to do it just isn't there and the first time it is needed, Panic! Once they have the first repair under their belt, either they are no longer so intimidated and pick up the skills, or they get disheartened and leave the cut.

 

Jen

When my first banger car broke, a friend worked with me and showed me how to take the gearbox and propshaft out and put them back. After that, fixing cars wasn't quite so scary. Later on there was enough money to pay someone else to fix them.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The knowledge of how to do it just isn't there and the first time it is needed, Panic! Once they have the first repair under their belt, either they are no longer so intimidated and pick up the skills, or they get disheartened and leave the cut.

I think the new member Marji is a great example of the former 'type' with his 'Water Problem' thread

Reads, Listens, Learns, Puts into Practice.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think the new member Marji is a great example of the former 'type' with his 'Water Problem' thread

Reads, Listens, Learns, Puts into Practice.

 

 

 

Agreed, one of the best posters we have had for yonks. Give him a few years and he will be helping others.

[Tracy D'arth]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Agreed, one of the best posters we have had for yonks. Give him a few years and he will be helping others.

That is what it is all about, helping others.

Not grizzling about the rights and wrongs of folk, all boaters are perfect you know.

TD'

[Theo]

My BMC 1.5 certainly has not had its day.

 

I change its oil and oil filter every 250 hours and its fuel filter every 500hrs.

 

After leaving it alone for about six months I went to it at the beginning of last week, gave it a minute on the glowplugs and a 5 second go with the sarter motor.  It did't go so I did the same again and it fired up and has been running smoothly every day since then.  It doesn't smoke at all.  Its oil pressure according to the giage starts off reasonable when the engine is cold but drops into its boots when its warm.  Nothing appears to be rattling, though, so I am unconcerned.

 

I don't know how many hours it has done but when I bought Theodora I fitted an hours counter and she has done 5,500 hours since then.

 

Oh, I did adjust the tappets when we were in Leeds in 2008.

 

Nick

[Tracy D'arth]

5 minutes ago, Theo said:

My BMC 1.5 certainly has not had its day.

 

I change its oil and oil filter every 250 hours and its fuel filter every 500hrs.

 

After leaving it alone for about six months I went to it at the beginning of last week, gave it a minute on the glowplugs and a 5 second go with the sarter motor.  It did't go so I did the same again and it fired up and has been running smoothly every day since then.  It doesn't smoke at all.  Its oil pressure according to the giage starts off reasonable when the engine is cold but drops into its boots when its warm.  Nothing appears to be rattling, though, so I am unconcerned.

 

I don't know how many hours it has done but when I bought Theodora I fitted an hours counter and she has done 5,500 hours since then.

 

Oh, I did adjust the tappets when we were in Leeds in 2008.

 

Nick

My 1.8D starts instantly without heater plug delay time, summer or winter. Oil pressure hot at normal speed, 1200 rpm. is 35 to 45 psi., at 600 tickover [which is a bit slow] its 20 psi.

Its a rebuild I did 20 years and 16000 hours ago.

Older engines often have damn all oil pressure at tickover, as long as the rockers are still getting oil they will run for ever, well as long as most of us want.

On 1.5D do you clean the gear oiler for the injection pump when you service it? You should.

1.8D suffers from premature timing chain and tensioner wear, its too long. Replace the crank sprocket and even the cam sprocket along with the chain, slipper and tensioner if there is any hooking of teeth.  MGB sprockets fit.

On both engines crank pulleys have to be carefully assembled onto the woodruff key or the pulley gets broken on the keyway, do not draw it on with the bolt, fully fit it correctly by hand.

TD'

[dmr]

12 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

My 1.8D starts instantly without heater plug delay time, summer or winter. Oil pressure hot at normal speed, 1200 rpm. is 35 to 45 psi., at 600 tickover [which is a bit slow] its 20 psi.

Its a rebuild I did 20 years and 16000 hours ago.

Older engines often have damn all oil pressure at tickover, as long as the rockers are still getting oil they will run for ever, well as long as most of us want.

On 1.5D do you clean the gear oiler for the injection pump when you service it? You should.

1.8D suffers from premature timing chain and tensioner wear, its too long. Replace the crank sprocket and even the cam sprocket along with the chain, slipper and tensioner if there is any hooking of teeth.  MGB sprockets fit.

On both engines crank pulleys have to be carefully assembled onto the woodruff key or the pulley gets broken on the keyway, do not draw it on with the bolt, fully fit it correctly by hand.

TD'

I am currently trying to learn about boat engine life expectancy. It looks like 16000 is really god for a lightly loaded diesel. What are you doing so right? Do you do quite a bit of high load river boating? Our engine (not a BMC) is starting to show some blowby and oil consumption after 12000 hours. Due to lockdown we have done a lot of battery charging and no full load river cruising this year. Maybe a good thrash will sort it out.  12,000 to 15,000 hours is often quoted as a reasonable life before fixing rings/bores.

 

.................Dave

[Tracy D'arth]

10 minutes ago, dmr said:

I am currently trying to learn about boat engine life expectancy. It looks like 16000 is really god for a lightly loaded diesel. What are you doing so right? Do you do quite a bit of high load river boating? Our engine (not a BMC) is starting to show some blowby and oil consumption after 12000 hours. Due to lockdown we have done a lot of battery charging and no full load river cruising this year. Maybe a good thrash will sort it out.  12,000 to 15,000 hours is often quoted as a reasonable life before fixing rings/bores.

 

.................Dave

It is never idled cold, nor for long periods charging batteries.  Heavily used whenever the opportunity  presents.

Oil and filter changed at 200 to 250  hours.

10w40 oil, bulk Morris's tractor oil usually, nothing fancy.

The build may have a lot to do with it, the donor engine had bores which were good without boring, new pistons and rings, gaps set over the gudgeon pins.

New cam followers. Block oilways reamed out, new oil pump with all ports polished. Crank ground on new centers. Just a careful assembly really.

[StephenA]

Our BMC 1.5 after a serious rebuild by Starline in Upton about 15 years ago has been rock solid (they did a much between job of it than Calcutt did). 15-20 seconds of heaters and it fires up on the first crank, even after standing idle for 5 months. Never idles for long times, tends to get long daily runs covering good distances. Had a few problems with the Alternator but that all got sorted out.  Oil changed on the 200 / 250 schedule.

[Alan de Enfield]

From the 20 odd posts, would it be reasonable to suggest :

 

BMC engines were manufactured in a time when DIY maintenance was expected and required, and that today, engines that have owners 'brought up in the era of preventative maintenance' and which have been rebuilt when necessary, and, continuously looked after are running 'as good as ever'.

 

The engines which are not maintained are now at an age where they can no longer keep running consistently.

[Tracy D'arth]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

From the 20 odd posts, would it be reasonable to suggest :

 

BMC engines were manufactured in a time when DIY maintenance was expected and required, and that today, engines that have owners 'brought up in the era of preventative maintenance' and which have been rebuilt when necessary, and, continuously looked after are running 'as good as ever'.

 

The engines which are not maintained are now at an age where they can no longer keep running consistently.

In the main, true, but there are very few that cannot be recovered and do another round of work. Obviously cracked blocks are now scrap and sleeving over bored ones is too expensive, maximum over bore is 60 thou.

The move to maintenance free mechanicals is not always a good thing, consider sealed for ( very short ) life ball joints as compared with grease nipples and the occasional squirt of grease.

TD'

[Grassman]

The BMC 1.8 in our 1995 built boat has done 12,000 hours, starts at the first attempt and doesn't smoke except for a few seconds at start up, and uses hardly any oil.  I've cruised an average of 400 hours a year since buying the boat in 2013, about 20% of which has been working it hard on rivers including tidal (Ribble, Thames Tideway, Trent, Yorkshire Ouse mainly). Last year we did the whole 32 miles (and 4 locks) of the Manchester Ship Canal in 7 hours, averaging over 5 mph, and it coped easily, with no overheating or nasty smoking.

 

It used to be prone to getting dangerously close to overheating on rivers but the fitting of a larger skin tank 4 years ago cured this. I do an oil change every 200 hours and fuel filter every 400 and this I think is the key. I used to have a shared in a boat with a BMC 1.8 and it used to have a service of some sort between each owner's use of it, and when I left the syndicate it had done 18,000 hours and was still going strong. 

 

Regular servicing and looking after it properly should considerably reduce the chances of problems occurring. I think high and regular use as well as occasionally working it hard also helps, and is much better than it sitting in it's moorings for most of the time.