Athy Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 9 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said: I I've seen that more than half of boaters do declare 100% domestic, so it's hardly surprising that governement/hmrc want to crack down on this. Really? Did the place where you saw it seem trustworthy? if so, that's (to use correctly an overworked word mentioned in another current thread) incredible. Only a long-term moored boater who went to get his diesel in cans could honestly make such a claim, and it's no wonder that the taxman becomes suspicious if others do it. We always declare 20/80 and think that we're probably being fairly accurate, though of course it's impossible to calculate precisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 9 minutes ago, Athy said: Really? Did the place where you saw it seem trustworthy? if so, that's (to use correctly an overworked word mentioned in another current thread) incredible. Only a long-term moored boater who went to get his diesel in cans could honestly make such a claim, and it's no wonder that the taxman becomes suspicious if others do it. We always declare 20/80 and think that we're probably being fairly accurate, though of course it's impossible to calculate precisely. The existing regulations allows a marina/mooring based liveaboard to use the boat to go and fill up and still declare 100% domestic. Using the excuse "I'm just filling up" would be unlikely to be accepted if it was 100 miles away from your permanent mooring 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: The existing regulations allows a marina/mooring based liveaboard to use the boat to go and fill up and still declare 100% domestic. Using the excuse "I'm just filling up" would be unlikely to be accepted if it was 100 miles away from your permanent mooring Thanks for that clarification. I had thought that boats would be O.K. moving from mooring to pump within their marina, but had not realised that the rule applied to banksiders also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Athy said: Thanks for that clarification. I had thought that boats would be O.K. moving from mooring to pump within their marina, but had not realised that the rule applied to banksiders also. It is a long time since I looked at it, but I seem to think there is a 'nearest supplier' clause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stilllearning Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Higgs said: In the case of the EU, it's a case of the new boss (the EU) being worse than the old boss. There are times when your powers of reasoning are even weaker than usual. Last time anyone checked, the UK had left the EU, so the new boss is boris. Edited July 22, 2020 by Athy To remove inflammatory content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob-M Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 19 minutes ago, Athy said: Really? Did the place where you saw it seem trustworthy? if so, that's (to use correctly an overworked word mentioned in another current thread) incredible. Only a long-term moored boater who went to get his diesel in cans could honestly make such a claim, and it's no wonder that the taxman becomes suspicious if others do it. We always declare 20/80 and think that we're probably being fairly accurate, though of course it's impossible to calculate precisely. Is that 20% propulsion or non propulsion...? As we generally move our boat everyday when we are on it I normally declare a higher proportion for propulsion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 3 minutes ago, Rob-M said: Is that 20% propulsion or non propulsion...? The former. I think that the propulsion percentage is usually expressed first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Athy said: The former. I think that the propulsion percentage is usually expressed first. EG : 60/40 is 60% propulsion and 40% 'domestic' Are you saying that only 20% of the fuel you buy is used for propulsion ? 48 minutes ago, Athy said: We always declare 20/80 and think that we're probably being fairly accurate, though of course it's impossible to calculate precisely. Edited July 22, 2020 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUMPY Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 18 minutes ago, Stilllearning said: There are times when your powers of reasoning are even weaker than usual. Last time anyone checked, the UK had left the EU, so the new boss is Dominic Cummings Fixed that for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: EG : 60/40 is 60% propulsion and 20% 'domestic' Are you saying that only 20% of the fuel you buy is used for propulsion ? There's no fooling our Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob-M Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: EG : 60/40 is 60% propulsion and 40% 'domestic' Are you saying that only 20% of the fuel you buy is used for propulsion ? Must be a boat that doesn't move much and sit there running the engine tied up charging the batteries or using a diesel heater rather than a solid fuel stove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 4 minutes ago, Rob-M said: Must be a boat that doesn't move much and sit there running the engine tied up charging the batteries or using a diesel heater rather than a solid fuel stove. Obviously, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momac Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 3 hours ago, wandering snail said: Boaters may want to respond to this to attempt to keep our use of red diesel. https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/consultation-on-reforms-to-the-tax-treatment-of-red-diesel-and-other-rebated-fuels Too little...... too late . Past campaigns have received little support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoominPapa Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Athy said: Really? Did the place where you saw it seem trustworthy? if so, that's (to use correctly an overworked word mentioned in another current thread) incredible. Only a long-term moored boater who went to get his diesel in cans could honestly make such a claim, and it's no wonder that the taxman becomes suspicious if others do it. We always declare 20/80 and think that we're probably being fairly accurate, though of course it's impossible to calculate precisely. Whenever I fill in the declaration sheet, I glance down the page to see what others have declared. I'd say half declaring 100% domestic is on the low side. Most fuel boats don't even ask these days. MP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doratheexplorer Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Athy said: Really? Did the place where you saw it seem trustworthy? if so, that's (to use correctly an overworked word mentioned in another current thread) incredible. Only a long-term moored boater who went to get his diesel in cans could honestly make such a claim, and it's no wonder that the taxman becomes suspicious if others do it. We always declare 20/80 and think that we're probably being fairly accurate, though of course it's impossible to calculate precisely. Some boatyards keep all the details in a big book which they ask you to sign. It's quite easy to see what splits all the lines above on the page are signed for. The one I'm was thinking of showed the clear majority claiming 100% domestic. Edited July 22, 2020 by doratheexplorer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 Just now, MoominPapa said: Whenever I fill in the declaration sheet, I glance down the page to see what others have declared. I'd say half declaring 100% domestic is on the low side. Most fuel boats don't even ask these days. MP. Probably because the vendor has no responsibility, other than to ensure the form is completed. The legal liability with making the correct declaration lies solely with the buyer, hence the demand for name and address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doratheexplorer Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said: The existing regulations allows a marina/mooring based liveaboard to use the boat to go and fill up and still declare 100% domestic. Using the excuse "I'm just filling up" would be unlikely to be accepted if it was 100 miles away from your permanent mooring The example I'm thinking about sells diesel but has no moorings, so that excuse wouldn't apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momac Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) When white diesel becomes mandatory the canals will be awash with the stuff as people start to use jerry cans to fetch fuel from supermarket fuel stations and spill half of it in the cut. Retailers at the waterside on inland waterways , with a few exceptions, will not be able to continue . Edited July 22, 2020 by MartynG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoominPapa Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said: Probably because the vendor has no responsibility, other than to ensure the form is completed. The legal liability with making the correct declaration lies solely with the buyer, hence the demand for name and address. Indeed. My point was simply that Athy was disbelieving that most people declare zero propulsion, but I've seen evidence that strongly suggests that's the case. MP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 Just now, doratheexplorer said: The example I'm thinking about sells diesel but has no moorings, so that excuse wouldn't apply. Sorry, maybe I failed to make it clear. It is the buyer who legally claims 100% domestic when they have a mooring (CCers cannot claim 100% domestic as by their very nature they are 'always' moving) even when they go to 'fetch it' in their boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doratheexplorer Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: Probably because the vendor has no responsibility, other than to ensure the form is completed. The legal liability with making the correct declaration lies solely with the buyer, hence the demand for name and address. Name and address with no request for any proof. Again in the signing book, addresses may just say "Stoke" or "Birmingham". 1 minute ago, MoominPapa said: Indeed. My point was simply that Athy was disbelieving that most people declare zero propulsion, but I've seen evidence that strongly suggests that's the case. MP. Thanks for the back up. Hopefully your experience will carry more weight than mine. 1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said: Sorry, maybe I failed to make it clear. It is the buyer who legally claims 100% domestic when they have a mooring (CCers cannot claim 100% domestic as by their very nature they are 'always' moving) even when they go to 'fetch it' in their boat. I knew what you meant but I don't think the law allows for a 100% declaration if the nearest diesel seller is some distance away from your mooring. Can you show otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 Just now, doratheexplorer said: Name and address with no request for any proof. Again in the signing book, addresses may just say "Stoke" or "Birmingham". Indeed : Boat name : Noddy Address : Big Ears House, Toytown But, the seller is not responsible for accuracy (but obvious fabrications of names could result in suspension or removal of his licence). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doratheexplorer Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 Just now, Alan de Enfield said: Indeed : Boat name : Noddy Address : Big Ears House, Toytown But, the seller is not responsible for accuracy (but obvious fabrications of names could result in suspension or removal of his licence). Which takes us back to my earlier point that boaters have probably brought this on themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 6 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said: Name and address with no request for any proof. Again in the signing book, addresses may just say "Stoke" or "Birmingham". Thanks for the back up. Hopefully your experience will carry more weight than mine. But the boat's number is also taken, so the boater could be identified if necessary. Yes, two similar reports carry more weight than one, of course. I am indeed very surprised: are these people mostly static liveaboards, or mostly mobile cheats? I tend to think of the boating fraternity as fundamentally honest, and to read evidence to the contrary is a shock. Our nearest marina will (or would) sell only on the recommended 60/40 split. I don't know how common that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoominPapa Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Athy said: I am indeed very surprised: are these people mostly static liveaboards, or mostly mobile cheats? I tend to think of the boating fraternity as fundamentally honest, and to read evidence to the contrary is a shock. Most taxation is opportunist (What we can get away with?) as is most tax evasion. It was obvious from the circumstances of the introduction of the split rate that the government didn't really mean it. What did you expect would happen? MP. Edited July 22, 2020 by MoominPapa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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