Upgrade to a Beta 50 Greenline from canaline 38?

[stevencarr29]

I am specifying my electrical and engine requirements before I get The Fit-Out pontoon to draw everything up for a few boat builders and I have seen that the base spec I am being offered is a 38 canaline unit with an upgrade option to a Beta 43. I am more than prepared to pay for the Beta 43 but for a few £100 more I can get a Beta 50 which comes with the PRM 150 and dual alternators with the ability to upgrade to a 24v domestic alternator which would work well with my proposed 48/3000 Victron Multiplus II inverter charger.

 

Has anyone got any thoughts on whether the Beta 50 is a bit over the top for a 60ft semi-trad josher or am I on a winner?

 

PS I know I probably need dual skin tanks which will be more £ but I like the idea of the better torque.

 

Any help much appreciated

 

Steve

Edited July 16, 2020 by stevencarr29

[Tracy D'arth]

A 38 HP engine is adequate for a canal boat. 43HP is better if you want to tow a water skier.

The old BMC 1.5D which if lucky pumped out around 30 HP powered 70' boats for years. 

You would be lucky in the average canal to put more than 7 HP into the blade before  the boat tried to dig its stern into the mud. Maybe a bit more on a river going against the flow. 

TD'

[PaulG]

Power wise the 50 is over the top for a NB. There are very few occasions where you could use the extra power. Certainly not on narrow canals, possibly on big rivers like the Trent, Severn, and Thames.
Being a displacement hull, if you try to use the extra power, it will simply make more wash, consume more fuel, make more noise with very little increase in speed.
You can play with this calculator if you want to:
http://www.kiwiprops.co.nz/cms/index.php/resources-general/vesselspeedcalc
You'll see that a 60ft, 20 tonne hull needs

18hp to drive it at 8 knots
35hp to drive it at 10 knots
61hp to drive it at 12 knots
OK, the numbers are for a yacht hull which is a bit different to a NB, but the same principle applies.
The extra 7hp is going to make little appreciable difference to the performance of your boat.

[GUMPY]

I have a Beta 50 with a 19x14 prop in my 60ft NB, the skin tanks have to be at least 12sqft in area, that is two tanks 18" x 4ft and when mine was built the skin tank wasn't big enough and for that reason it is now cooled via a heat exchanger and canal/river water. Keeps it at a comfortable temp unless I am running flat out then it creeps up to 90deg. I have not had a problem with blockages of the cooling system on both canals and rivers despite what some will say its a good system.

Its nice to have the extra power on rivers and tidal sections but on canals its not worth it I tend to sit at 1100 rpm or less with the engine doing very little. 

You will need a decent shaped rear swims (not slab sided) and a decent prop to transfer the power to the water otherwise its a waste of time having it.

 

 

 

[Steve56]

34 minutes ago, stevencarr29 said:

I am specifying my electrical and engine requirements before I get The Fit-Out pontoon to draw everything up for a few boat builders and I have seen that the base spec I am being offered is a 38 canaline unit with an upgrade option to a Beta 43. I am more than prepared to pay for the Beta 43 but for a few £100 more I can get a Beta 50 which comes with the PRM 150 and dual alternators with the ability to upgrade to a 24v domestic alternator which would work well with my proposed 48/3000 Victron Multiplus II inverter charger.

 

Has anyone got any thoughts on whether the Beta 50 is a bit over the top for a 60ft semi-trad josher or am I on a winner?

 

PS I know I probably need dual skin tanks which will be more £ but I like the idea of the better torque.

 

Any help much appreciated

 

Steve

You could just ask Beta to fit the parts you want onto the Beta 43 engine. I'm sure they would be more than happy to do this.

[Keeping Up]

Diesel engines like to work hard, and I reckon the 50 might suffer from being under-loaded. We have the 43 on our 67 footer and there has always been more power available than we need.

[stevencarr29]

9 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I have a Beta 50 with a 19x14 prop in my 60ft NB, the skin tanks have to be at least 12sqft in area, that is two tanks 18" x 4ft and when mine was built the skin tank wasn't big enough and for that reason it is now cooled via a heat exchanger and canal/river water. Keeps it at a comfortable temp unless I am running flat out then it creeps up to 90deg. I have not had a problem with blockages of the cooling system on both canals and rivers despite what some will say its a good system.

Its nice to have the extra power on rivers and tidal sections but on canals its not worth it I tend to sit at 1100 rpm or less with the engine doing very little. 

You will need a decent shaped rear swims (not slab sided) and a decent prop to transfer the power to the water otherwise its a waste of time having it.

 

 

 

Thanks Julian,

 

We are in Kingston Upon Thames so will be up and down the Thames and in the longer term would like river capability for the wider network. My concern is with the rpm likely to below could I be in danger of overheating the alternators through inadequate cooling due to the low rpm?

 

I think if I did go with the smaller Beta 43 the higher rpm noise would annoy me so might need to get a super silent enclosure as well as pay for the PRM150 upgrade and the premier control panel which is thrown in with the Beta 50. 

[pearley]

6 minutes ago, Steve56 said:

You could just ask Beta to fit the parts you want onto the Beta 43 engine. I'm sure they would be more than happy to do this.

PRM150 and superior panel are standard with Beta 43 and 24 volt alternator is listed as optional

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by pearley

[stevencarr29]

9 minutes ago, Steve56 said:

You could just ask Beta to fit the parts you want onto the Beta 43 engine. I'm sure they would be more than happy to do this.

Good idea I shall ask

[Jen-in-Wellies]

3 minutes ago, stevencarr29 said:

Thanks Julian,

 

We are in Kingston Upon Thames so will be up and down the Thames and in the longer term would like river capability for the wider network. My concern is with the rpm likely to below could I be in danger of overheating the alternators through inadequate cooling due to the low rpm?

 

I think if I did go with the smaller Beta 43 the higher rpm noise would annoy me so might need to get a super silent enclosure as well as pay for the PRM150 upgrade and the premier control panel which is thrown in with the Beta 50. 

I've had a Beta 43 in a 57' NB for years. Handles rivers just fine, including things like turning against the flow on the tidal Trent to get in to Keadby lock, where the water can run very fast. More than adequate.

Jen

[stevencarr29]

5 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

Diesel engines like to work hard, and I reckon the 50 might suffer from being under-loaded. We have the 43 on our 67 footer and there has always been more power available than we need.

that is reassuring and highlights my concern that the 50 might not keep the alternators cool enough. Maybe the Beta 43 (possibly with super silent enclosure) with upgraded alternators to 24v domestic is the research for tonight.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

2 minutes ago, stevencarr29 said:

Good idea I shall ask

Have you seen the Beta spec and options for the 43?

https://betamarine.co.uk/portfolio-item/beta-43-greenline/#panel5445555764

[Steve56]

Beta are a very helpful company. As well as all of there standard products they build a great deal of specials. Which is why I say there are so many options you could have. Just give them a bell and discuss.

[GUMPY]

3 minutes ago, stevencarr29 said:

We are in Kingston Upon Thames so will be up and down the Thames and in the longer term would like river capability for the wider network. My concern is with the rpm likely to below could I be in danger of overheating the alternators through inadequate cooling due to the low rpm?

1500rpm on mine is over 5mph, been yelled at twice by the EA for speeding

I have seen 7mph on the GPS on a quiet stretch of the Nene but its legal there.

 

[OldGoat]

When we built, I went for the 50HP Beta and a PRM160 gearbox - because

• we're Thames based
• The 150 gearbox didn't have a good reputation
• It was easier to fit a SeaPower 240v alternator
• Plus a large 24V alternator
• and
• and
• there was not a huge amount of difference in the price between the two

It doesn't get hot - we have raw water cooling which makes the engine quieter (and I don't get burns from a hot exhaust pipe whe clearing the weed hatch)

 

edit: there's only 7 HP nomonal difference between the two engines, thus it's no show stopper either way. The 50 was an established engine at the time and Ted Spash feltt more comfortable with all the bite I was going to hang on it. I've got a larger than usual battery bank and was intending to run an IBM mini computer off it....

 

Ask yourself would you be happier with a sooped up mini minor or a Volvo Estate (if they were the same money....

Edited July 16, 2020 by OldGoat

[stevencarr29]

2 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Have you seen the Beta spec and options for the 43?

https://betamarine.co.uk/portfolio-item/beta-43-greenline/#panel5445555764

Thanks,

 

Yes I have the same document open in front of me.

 

Spec for my 43 beta option would be:

 

• Beta 43 Greenline
• Upgrade - 100 Amp, 24 Volt Secondary Domestic Alternator in Lieu of Standard – Port Side Mounted (Polyvee Drive)
• Upgrade - PRM 280 Gearbox
• Upgrade - C Delux control panel
• Upgrade - Super silent enclosure (50:50 on whether this is worth it or to soundproof full engine bay)
• Upgrade - Hospital silencer
• Upgrade - Aquadrive unit

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

When we built, I went for the 50HP Beta and a PRM160 gearbox - because

• we're Thames based
• The 150 gearbox didn't have a good reputation
• It was easier to fit a SeaPower 240v alternator
• Plus a large 24V alternator
• and
• and
• there was not a huge amount of difference in the price between the two

It doesn't get hot - we have raw water cooling which makes the engine quieter (and I don't get burns from a hot exhaust pipe whe clearing the weed hatch)

Spec for my 43 beta option would be:

 

• Beta 43 Greenline
• Upgrade - 100 Amp, 24 Volt Secondary Domestic Alternator in Lieu of Standard – Port Side Mounted (Polyvee Drive)
• Upgrade - PRM 280 Gearbox
• Upgrade - C Delux control panel
• Upgrade - Super silent enclosure (50:50 on whether this is worth it or to soundproof full engine bay)
• Upgrade - Hospital silencer
• Upgrade - Aquadrive unit

[GUMPY]

5 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

It doesn't get hot - we have raw water cooling which makes the engine quieter (and I don't get burns from a hot exhaust pipe whe clearing the weed hatch)

This is a big bonus from our systems, not having a hot exhaust system under the floor although in my case the weed hatch is in the rear deck.

[Keeping Up]

Knowing that we would never want to exceed 7mph, we deliberately chose a gearbox/prop combination (3:1 and 18x14 high efficiency) which gives us 400 rpm per mph on open water. On canals it is nearer to 450.

 

We also have a bilge blower bringing air inwards to keep the engine bay cool, arranged so that the first thing the cool air strikes is the alternator.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Check the sizes of the two engines to and compare them with the amount of space around them where they are to go. At some point, you, or a mechanic is going to have to service them. There will likely also be batteries and possibly a calorifier in there too and there needs to be space in which to work. You will definitely need to reach the weed hatch at some point. Especially if you ever travel to the wilder reaches of the BCN, or other urban canals.

 

+1 on the hospital silencer. I've put in some sound proofing too, but not as good as the factory enclosure. Have been asked before now if the boat is electric! 

 

Jen

[Tracy D'arth]

I would go for the 24v alternator if you really want a dual voltage boat,  [ I would prefer a simple all 12v system, its a boat not a power station ] , the PRM280 gearbox because you will never break it,  the 'hospital' silencer,  and the Aquadrive.

I would forget the 'delux' panel, they fail after a while anyway and have too many whistles and bells, KISS principle,  and the enclosure, they are a pain when you need to get access, fall apart easily and you will end up throwing it away because they don't make it much quieter.

 

Just my experience and opinion from many years on canals.

TD'

[OldGoat]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I would go for the 24v alternator if you really want a dual voltage boat,  [ I would prefer a simple all 12v system, its a boat not a power station ] , the PRM280 gearbox because you will never break it,  the 'hospital' silencer,  and the Aquadrive.

I would forget the 'delux' panel, they fail after a while anyway and have too many whistles and bells, KISS principle,  and the enclosure, they are a pain when you need to get access, fall apart easily and you will end up throwing it away because they don't make it much quieter.

 

Just my experience and opinion from many years on canals.

TD'

What will make it quieter and cooler engine bay is fresh water cooling - but you need a well designed mud box - not a 1 1/2" pipe let into the bottom of the hull. The boat will sound like a Cgentleman's slipper launch as seen in Henley in better years.....

[Keeping Up]

When ours was installed, we initially had a good quality but standard silencer and it was extremely noisy. Apparently that was a bad choice, the exhaust from a Beta is actually quieter with the cheapest of silences, but is much much quieter with a hospital silencer so go for that option if you can. We had one custom made to fit by TW Marine and it is amazingly quiet.

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, stevencarr29 said:

that is reassuring and highlights my concern that the 50 might not keep the alternators cool enough. Maybe the Beta 43 (possibly with super silent enclosure) with upgraded alternators to 24v domestic is the research for tonight.

 

The alternator cooling has little to do with engine power and everything to do with pulley ratio. The engine speed will almost certainly be limited by the speed at which the stern digs in or the speed limit. If that did cause the  alternator to overheat you could  alter the pulley ratio.

[Machpoint005]

If you have problems in the future and need a "man who can" then the Beta 43 will hold no surprises for any of them.

 

My boat is 48'6" so it is probably overpowered with its Beta 43, but it doesn't half stop well!

[Tony Brooks]

As there is very little chance of you being able to use all the 50HP and probably all of 43HP before you reach the maximum hull speed why not fit a slightly undersized prop. That would give higher engine revs at any given boat speed.