Bewildered Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 About a week ago we left Cropredy to head north up the Claydon locks, as we past the winding hole at Clattercote (bridge 147) we noticed that it has signs that say, private no turning. I wasn’t intending to turn as my route took me past it but it made me wonder if land owners have the right to close an official turning point that is marked on the maps. I think if I had wanted to wind there I would have just done it. As far as I am concerned the winding hole and the water belong to CRT and as my boat is on the water (not their land) there is nothing the land owner can do other than put signs up and hope boaters take notice. I’m not entirely sure if I am correct here (clarification would be appreciated) but if I am correct this sign must put off a lot of boaters, especially hire boaters. So can land owners close winding holes or can they only put up signs and hope for the best? Also the winding hole at Summerton meadows is closed with a chain and a sign saying its shallow, anyone know why this is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty40s Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, Bewildered said: So can land owners close winding holes or can they only put up signs and hope for the best? Also the winding hole at Summerton meadows is closed with a chain and a sign saying its shallow, anyone know why this is? Yea they can if they own the land on the offside and the original bank that was cut away to form the winding hole. It hasnt been dredged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewildered Posted July 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, matty40s said: Yea they can if they own the land on the offside and the original bank that was cut away to form the winding hole. It hasnt been dredged. But are the winding holes not part of the original navigation? Edited July 15, 2020 by Bewildered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty40s Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 Not necessarily, or the winding hole was built by the original wharf owner when setting up , and still remains in their ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy D'arth Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 When is a winding hole not a winding hole? When it belongs to someone other than the waterway owner. Same with disused arms that become moorings, entrances to marinas and docks etc. Just quietly wind; doing no damage; like everyone else does and no one will get too upset. TD' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bastion Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 It is a private winding hole the official one is past the next lock going north. The official one at Somerton is above Somerton deep lock. Mistakes often made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 15 hours ago, Bewildered said: About a week ago we left Cropredy to head north up the Claydon locks, as we past the winding hole at Clattercote (bridge 147) we noticed that it has signs that say, private no turning. I wasn’t intending to turn as my route took me past it but it made me wonder if land owners have the right to close an official turning point that is marked on the maps. I think if I had wanted to wind there I would have just done it. As far as I am concerned the winding hole and the water belong to CRT and as my boat is on the water (not their land) there is nothing the land owner can do other than put signs up and hope boaters take notice. I’m not entirely sure if I am correct here (clarification would be appreciated) but if I am correct this sign must put off a lot of boaters, especially hire boaters. So can land owners close winding holes or can they only put up signs and hope for the best? Also the winding hole at Summerton meadows is closed with a chain and a sign saying its shallow, anyone know why this is? The winding hole belongs to Gregg Klaes, owner of Forge Farm and Clattercote Wharf. If the sign puts off a lot of boaters, that's because it's supposed to. About half a mile further towards Claydon, round the bend and before the locks, there is a winding hole immediately beyond what we call Anorexics' Bridge, the bridge with the very thin top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dor Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 The winding hole at the top of Tyrley Locks on the Shroppie has (or had) asign saying something like "winding by permission of the owner". I assume this means that the winding hole is private, but the owner is happy for people to use it. The sign presumably means he can retract the permission at some point without it being challenged through common usage. Seems a bit churlish to stop people using a winding hole unless the owner has a specific use for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 7 minutes ago, dor said: Seems a bit churlish to stop people using a winding hole unless the owner has a specific use for it. Would you feel the same about allowing other people's cars to turn round in your drive? As I understand it, Gregg dug out, or had dug for him, that winding hole. He has a stretch of long-term moorings at his farm. and he personally owns a full-length motor and butty. So the 'ole is for the use of him and his moorers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 15 hours ago, Bewildered said: About a week ago we left Cropredy to head north up the Claydon locks, as we past the winding hole at Clattercote (bridge 147) we noticed that it has signs that say, private no turning. I wasn’t intending to turn as my route took me past it but it made me wonder if land owners have the right to close an official turning point that is marked on the maps. I think if I had wanted to wind there I would have just done it. As far as I am concerned the winding hole and the water belong to CRT and as my boat is on the water (not their land) there is nothing the land owner can do other than put signs up and hope boaters take notice. I’m not entirely sure if I am correct here (clarification would be appreciated) but if I am correct this sign must put off a lot of boaters, especially hire boaters. So can land owners close winding holes or can they only put up signs and hope for the best? Also the winding hole at Summerton meadows is closed with a chain and a sign saying its shallow, anyone know why this is? The one at Somerton has been roped off for many many years and its only short and muddy anyway. The one at the top of Somerton deep turns up to 67 feet and maybe more I havnt tried to wind anything longer than that there for years. Most with lengths stated are wrong as with lock dimensions. For instance the one in the cleeves below Lower Heyford that proudly displays max 60 feet turns a full length boat of 71ft 6 inches, many more around the place are wrongly signed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Todd Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 19 hours ago, Bewildered said: About a week ago we left Cropredy to head north up the Claydon locks, as we past the winding hole at Clattercote (bridge 147) we noticed that it has signs that say, private no turning. I wasn’t intending to turn as my route took me past it but it made me wonder if land owners have the right to close an official turning point that is marked on the maps. I think if I had wanted to wind there I would have just done it. As far as I am concerned the winding hole and the water belong to CRT and as my boat is on the water (not their land) there is nothing the land owner can do other than put signs up and hope boaters take notice. I’m not entirely sure if I am correct here (clarification would be appreciated) but if I am correct this sign must put off a lot of boaters, especially hire boaters. So can land owners close winding holes or can they only put up signs and hope for the best? Also the winding hole at Summerton meadows is closed with a chain and a sign saying its shallow, anyone know why this is? The one at Somerton Meadows was closed in about 2008 - we used to moor a little further down at Lower Heyford. My understanding was that a new owner did not like boats turning there - not helped as it was generally marked as 50ft which was ignored by many up at least 60 ft if not a bit more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewildered Posted July 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 4 hours ago, Athy said: The winding hole belongs to Gregg Klaes, owner of Forge Farm and Clattercote Wharf. If the sign puts off a lot of boaters, that's because it's supposed to. About half a mile further towards Claydon, round the bend and before the locks, there is a winding hole immediately beyond what we call Anorexics' Bridge, the bridge with the very thin top. Interesting, the one at Clattercote is marked on my Nicholson guide but the other one isn't. Perhaps CRT should produce an official map showing which winding holes are useable and which are not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 8 minutes ago, Bewildered said: Interesting, the one at Clattercote is marked on my Nicholson guide but the other one isn't. Perhaps CRT should produce an official map showing which winding holes are useable and which are not The "other one" is pretty wide: in our 45-footer I can, on a good day, get round in one go without any reversing, so I would think that a full-length boat could turn there. I don't know if it's an official turning point or not; if not, there must be some historical reason (old wharf?) for the considerable widening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewildered Posted July 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 The nature of canal usage is so different now from what it was originally designed for that we, perhaps, need a campaign to have more winding holes dug. Also existing short winding holes dug out to accommodate full length boats where possible. I'm sure there are many obsticals to such a undertaking but the physical work in many places is just one day with a JCB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, Bewildered said: The nature of canal usage is so different now from what it was originally designed for that we, perhaps, need a campaign to have more winding holes dug. Also existing short winding holes dug out to accommodate full length boats where possible. I'm sure there are many obsticals to such a undertaking but the physical work in many places is just one day with a JCB Not a bad idea. In practice, there are far more marinas ow than there used to be, and boats can turn round in their entrances (at Cropredy you even get two choices of entrance). Some years ago (seven or eight?) a winding hole was dug out in the long-term moorings above Claydon locks. We used it a few times. But the last time we went past, there were two boats parked in it, rendering it completely unusable, so why it was dug in the first place I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Lowe Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 Many of what appear to be winding holes are actually all that remains of a long disused wharf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Lewis Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 Please feel free to report findings the IWA Winding Hole survey https://www.waterways.org.uk/news_campaigns/campaigns/winding_holes/winding_hole_survey 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 3 hours ago, Bewildered said: Interesting, the one at Clattercote is marked on my Nicholson guide but the other one isn't. Perhaps CRT should produce an official map showing which winding holes are useable and which are not Nicholson 2009 edition shows it in the right place, i.e. on the last bend before the bottom lock. On previous editions it was shown in the wrong place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keeping Up Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 3 hours ago, Bewildered said: Perhaps CRT should produce an official map showing which winding holes are useable and which are not If they did it would almost certainly be full of errors They should also produce an official guide showing which official maps are useable and which are not - but then ... 3 hours ago, Athy said: Not a bad idea. In practice, there are far more marinas ow than there used to be, and boats can turn round in their entrances (at Cropredy you even get two choices of entrance). Most marina entrances have notices telling you that winding is prohibited, and you can certainly expect to be shouted at if you do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy D'arth Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 1 hour ago, MartinC said: Nicholson 2009 edition shows it in the right place, i.e. on the last bend before the bottom lock. On previous editions it was shown in the wrong place Some issues of Nicholsins were reprinted because there were so many errors. 1 hour ago, Keeping Up said: If they did it would almost certainly be full of errors They should also produce an official guide showing which official maps are useable and which are not - but then ... Most marina entrances have notices telling you that winding is prohibited, and you can certainly expect to be shouted at if you do. I wander slowly into marinas, look at diesel prices, if there are any spaces etc. then wander gently out again with a friendly wave. So its not winding! TD' 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeddlad Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said: I wander slowly into marinas, look at diesel prices, if there are any spaces etc. then wander gently out again with a friendly wave. So its not winding! TD' Lol, Snap! That's exactly what I do! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuthound Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 18 hours ago, Bewildered said: The nature of canal usage is so different now from what it was originally designed for that we, perhaps, need a campaign to have more winding holes dug. Also existing short winding holes dug out to accommodate full length boats where possible. I'm sure there are many obsticals to such a undertaking but the physical work in many places is just one day with a JCB I'd prefer it if they dredged and cut back the vegetation on the ones they already have before digging any more. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Todd Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 18 hours ago, Bewildered said: Interesting, the one at Clattercote is marked on my Nicholson guide but the other one isn't. Perhaps CRT should produce an official map showing which winding holes are useable and which are not They do publish those which are official places https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/canal-and-river-network. To list those that look like winding holes but are not would be an almost impossible task as, over time, the offside edge of many canals is, shall we say, rather wavy and in places a desperate shorter boat might try anything that looks wide enough (but often turns out not to be). Calling for proof of a negative is the mark of a poor quality hack newspaper(or a sub standard scientist or even philosopher. How often have you heard a campaigner say something like "5g - or whatever - should be banned because you haven't proved it safe'. The only thing that you could demonstrate is that it is unsafe. No amount of spotting white swans 'proves' All Swans Are White but seeing a single black swan immediately disproves it. The only 'safe' solution for CaRT would be start with a blanket statement "You must not wind anywhere unless specifically marked both in situ and on our published maps" although I am sure that the anti H&S brigade would be out instantly to complain about 'people controlling our canals that don't know anything about boating' just because they 'know' of a special place where they can always turn their boat! Incidentally, I suspect Paul Balmer's survey data is more up to date than Nicholsons, although the latter do make claims about regular updating and they have, I believe, more than one peson doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, Keeping Up said: Most marina entrances have notices telling you that winding is prohibited, and you can certainly expect to be shouted at if you do. I would substitute "some" and "possibly" for the highlighted words. But your comment does raise a couple of points: - Most marinas have a wide bit of canal by their entrance to enable their moorers to get in and out, so that you can turn round without actually going through the entrance. We have done this at Braunston a few times, for example. - If you do stick your bows into the actual entrance, as the water is CART's, what rule are you breaking? - To what extent does shouting affect the performance of your boat? Neither Cropredy nor Braunston marinas has a No Turning sign as far as I'm aware. Fenny does, but they allowed us to turn there after I'd asked permission. Edited July 17, 2020 by Athy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Pegg Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Athy said: I would substitute "some" and "possibly" for the highlighted words. But your comment does raise a couple of points: - Most marinas have a wide bit of canal by their entrance to enable their moorers to get in and out, so that you can turn round without actually going through the entrance. We have done this at Braunston a few times, for example. - If you do stick your bows into the actual entrance, as the water is CART's, what rule are you breaking? - To what extent does shouting affect the performance of your boat? CRT do not ‘own’ the water that is not on their land, they maintain a supply to their business partner for which they levy a charge. If you pass the original line of the bank then you will be trespassing on the marina owner’s land. JP Edited July 17, 2020 by Captain Pegg 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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