Engine move for calorifier

[doratheexplorer]

21 minutes ago, cuthound said:

I have experienced boats with engine and cabin mounted calorifiers.

 

The issue I found with boats with engine hole mounted calorifiers is that being mounted lower, and often horizontally, they are much more prone to air locks.

 

Also they seem to lose more heat overnight than one within the confines of the cabin, probably because the ambient temperature in the engine hole drops lower than the cabin on cold nights.

I've definitely noticed that mine holds its heat better than the old one.  It's probably better insulated too though.

[OldGoat]

I never understand why folks put their calorifiers in the engine bay

 

We have an airing cupbard FHS and the cauliflower lives in there

Seemples.

[Bod]

On 14/07/2020 at 22:21, nickhindle said:

Hi all,

 

I may need to tilt my Vetus M4.15 engine to starboard (or drop the whole thing) to increase the gap on the port side between engine and deck by about 1cm, so I can get a new calorifier through to it's home on the rear bulkhead.

 

The maintenance book I use ("Narrow Boat Engine" by Stephanie Horton) says in no way should I move the upper nuts on the engine mounting bolts, or I might muck up the alignment of the coupling (which I don't think is flexible).

 

This suggests I will need to slacken the lower bolts port side and then wind down the starboard bolts until I've got my 1cm.

 

Any expert recommendations?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

Which part of the engine is causing the problem?

Could only that part be moved/removed?

 

Bod. 

[Sea Dog]

5 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

The fitter told me that engine bays are a poor choice for calorfiers.  Too much exposure to hot and cold gradually weakens the metal until they explode.  Is this right?  Or a myth?

He really said that?  A cylinder designed to hold water which is heated only to be replaced by cold, then heated again (repeat ad infinitum) can't stand engine bay temperature change?  You won't be using him again, I suspect!

 

[Tony Brooks]

29 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

He really said that?  A cylinder designed to hold water which is heated only to be replaced by cold, then heated again (repeat ad infinitum) can't stand engine bay temperature change?  You won't be using him again, I suspect!

 

I agree 100%, I wanted to add he's a prat to my original answer but thought I had better not. If Dora is as the name suggest then it looks to me like a lets try a bit of bullshine so I can get more unjustified money.

[Rivelin]

In the end I managed to do it without moving the engine, which was lucky because the lower bolts were close to the bottom bracket so I wouldn't have got the 1cm needed.

 

I removed the alternator, thermostat, heat exchanger and rocker cover, then had to remove the bolt and locknut from the end valve, and it went in (just!).

 

Everything is back in place - just need to do a quick valve clearance check on that end valve.

 

Thank you all for the help and suggestions ?

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by nickhindle
Photo added

[ditchcrawler]

Over pressurising splits them , The pressure relief valve is there to protect it, not control the pressure

[Tony Brooks]

I have also known people save money by fitting an ordinary domestic indirect cylinder and wondering why it splits.

[Machpoint005]

On 15/07/2020 at 01:34, blackrose said:

 

Assuming there's another suitable location for it of course. On many narrowboats there; just isn't. 

 

The other advice could be not to install a calorifer and instead install an instant gas water heater, but that might not be a useful suggestion either.

 

Ooh! Think of all that lovely free already-paid-for heat going to waste!

 

[Machpoint005]

5 hours ago, cuthound said:

>>Also they seem to lose more heat overnight than one within the confines of the cabin, probably because the ambient temperature in the engine hole drops lower than the cabin on cold nights.<<

 

That's an interesting one, but if the cauliflower is properly insulated I wouldn't expect that great a difference (but I haven't crunched the numbers). I've a feeling that the issue is rather more that if you don't have a non-return valve (or a handraulic stop valve) in the system, then soon after the engine is turned off, the water in the cauliflower warms the engine, rather than the other way around. We have a cauliflower in an airing cupboard (OK a cupboard) and a stop valve, such that if no shower is taken in the evening, there is hot water the next morning.

 

Of course, since we can get a tankful of hot water after only ten minutes or so of cruising, it isn't really an issue for us.

 

 

[WotEver]

On 14/07/2020 at 22:21, nickhindle said:

The maintenance book I use ("Narrow Boat Engine" by Stephanie Horton) says in no way should I move the upper nuts on the engine mounting bolts, or I might muck up the alignment of the coupling (which I don't think is flexible).

I don't know why no-one else has picked up on this but if that's really what Stephanie wrote then she's very confused.  The lower nuts set the engine alignment - those are what the mounts sit on - so as long as they don't move you can loosen the top nuts as much as you like, wiggle the engine to your heart's content, then tighten the top nuts back up and everything will be where it started off.

 

Not that it's relevant to you any longer of course, I just thought it worth pointing out.

[Rivelin]

7 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I don't know why no-one else has picked up on this but if that's really what Stephanie wrote then she's very confused.  The lower nuts set the engine alignment - those are what the mounts sit on - so as long as they don't move you can loosen the top nuts as much as you like, wiggle the engine to your heart's content, then tighten the top nuts back up and everything will be where it started off.

 

Not that it's relevant to you any longer of course, I just thought it worth pointing out.

 

[Steve56]

8 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I don't know why no-one else has picked up on this but if that's really what Stephanie wrote then she's very confused.  The lower nuts set the engine alignment - those are what the mounts sit on - so as long as they don't move you can loosen the top nuts as much as you like, wiggle the engine to your heart's content, then tighten the top nuts back up and everything will be where it started off.

 

Not that it's relevant to you any longer of course, I just thought it worth pointing out.

Check out posts 8 and 9.

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, nickhindle said:

 

 

Exactly as I suspected and said. Perfectly true

[Steve56]

6 minutes ago, nickhindle said:

 

Now after reading this passage it all makes perfect sense and totally agree with what has been written.

[frangar]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Exactly as I suspected and said. Perfectly true

How does the top nut affect alignment? The engine surely rests on the bottom nuts and those control the angle...the top nut merely locks the system in place. I take it by calling a professional she doesn’t mean an RCR contractor? 
 

edited to add the only way that might make sense is if the mounts where threaded and a bolt used in them rather than them having studs...in which case it’s not a nut but a bolt that shouldn’t be touched. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by frangar

[Tracy D'arth]

I think most of us are aware by now that the Horton/Key empire is not fit for purpose most of the time.

TD'

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, frangar said:

How does the top nut affect alignment? The engine surely rests on the bottom nuts and those control the angle...the top nut merely locks the system in place. I take it by calling a professional she doesn’t mean an RCR contractor? 
 

edited to add the only way that might make sense is if the mounts where threaded and a bolt used in them rather than them having studs...in which case it’s not a nut but a bolt that shouldn’t be touched. 

 

Why or why can people not read what is written as Steve has done. That paragraph is NOT about engine alignment, its about engine mount nuts working loose and what to do about it.

 

So once again for those who can't see the wood for the trees. The majority of such mounts use a self locking nut on top and a plain nut on the bottom. If vibrations do cause a nut to work lose it will be a bottom nut so the engine will drop at that mount - unless an idiot has reused the self locking nuts and not taken precautions. The self locker will be in the correct place so to put the engine back into alignment you tighten the bottom nut back up against the top.

 

I know some mounts use plane nuts on the top and if you have one of those either put a dab of paint on the nut and thread so you can see if it has moved, use a centre punch to put a witness indention into the thread or nut, or as someone said last time I wrote all this put a lock nut  down onto the top nut.

 

In my view the paragraph is correct, its the readers and those that are reacting to partial information that are wrong.

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Why or why can people not read what is written..................

 

 

That unfortunately is a common failing, either not reading properly, not understanding what is written, or already having preconceived ideas about the author.

 

There is one poster in particular who seems to struggle to understand what many other posters have written, I have come to the conclusion (as taught on a management course) that it is the 'authors' fault for not writing at the level of understanding of the 'reader'.

[Rivelin]

I agree the paragraph is not incorrect, but in my view a little open to interpretation...

 

I have found the book very useful and valuable, and would recommend it to anyone that needs a general guide for what to do and when to do it.

[Tony Brooks]

32 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That unfortunately is a common failing, either not reading properly, not understanding what is written, or already having preconceived ideas about the author.

 

There is one poster in particular who seems to struggle to understand what many other posters have written, I have come to the conclusion (as taught on a management course) that it is the 'authors' fault for not writing at the level of understanding of the 'reader'.

 

I struggle to write so its not open to misunderstanding etc. so I often write far more words then I think are strictly necessary. It far easier when talking face to face when you can often tell by the expression it the words have been understood or not and a check question is easy to ask. Looking at the way a fair number on here and elsewhere on the internet write I wonder if it is even possible to get some things properly understood.

[WotEver]

5 hours ago, nickhindle said:

 

But that’s not what you said. 
 

ETA: I see Tony B has already pointed this out. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by WotEver

[Rivelin]

38 minutes ago, WotEver said:

But that’s not what you said. 
 

ETA: I see Tony B has already pointed this out. 

What's not what I said?

[Steve56]

There just seems to be so much misunderstanding with this post. Originally it was said that if the OP wanted to move his engine he could undo the top mounting nuts and do so. As long as the lower nuts were not disturbed the alignment would not alter.

The paragraph in the book is explaining what to do if you get a nut come loose. In most circumstances the top nut is a lock nut and stays in place and the lower nut becomes loose. In this situation you would raise the lower nut to tighten, exactly as the book. Two totally different situations.

[WotEver]

8 hours ago, nickhindle said:

What's not what I said?

Steve explains it in the post above.