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Engine move for calorifier


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Hi all,

 

I may need to tilt my Vetus M4.15 engine to starboard (or drop the whole thing) to increase the gap on the port side between engine and deck by about 1cm, so I can get a new calorifier through to it's home on the rear bulkhead.

 

The maintenance book I use ("Narrow Boat Engine" by Stephanie Horton) says in no way should I move the upper nuts on the engine mounting bolts, or I might muck up the alignment of the coupling (which I don't think is flexible).

 

This suggests I will need to slacken the lower bolts port side and then wind down the starboard bolts until I've got my 1cm.

 

Any expert recommendations?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Presumably the old calorifer wasn't quite as large so you were able to get it out? Why not shave off the insulation foam with a saw by about 1 cm on two sides to get the new calorifer through the gap. Then either spray some more foam on it or buy an installation jacket to make up for what you took off? Seems easier than moving the engine.

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3 minutes ago, nickhindle said:

Hi all,

 

I may need to tilt my Vetus M4.15 engine to starboard (or drop the whole thing) to increase the gap on the port side between engine and deck by about 1cm, so I can get a new calorifier through to it's home on the rear bulkhead.

 

The maintenance book I use ("Narrow Boat Engine" by Stephanie Horton) says in no way should I move the upper nuts on the engine mounting bolts, or I might muck up the alignment of the coupling (which I don't think is flexible).

 

This suggests I will need to slacken the lower bolts port side and then wind down the starboard bolts until I've got my 1cm.

 

Any expert recommendations?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No expert but my first thought is don't install calorifier there. Going forward any form of maintenance would be a nightmare, Leaks, immersion heater element change etc,etc.  In the end it's your call

As for altering the engine alignment any tampering with the engine mounts will have this effect. Re-alignment isn't difficult dependent upon mechanical skills

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6 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Presumably the old calorifer wasn't quite as large so you were able to get it out? Why not shave off the insulation foam with a saw by about 1 cm on two sides to get the new calorifer through the gap. Then either spray some more foam on it or buy an installation jacket to make up for what you took off? Seems easier than moving the engine.

This may well be the right way to go. Shaving some insulation off would invalidate the gaurantee I guess, but thinking about it, there's probably much less of a risk of a calorifier fault than me tinkering with the engine mountings. Thanks!

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If the needed gap increase is only 1cm why not just try tieing a rope between the engine lifting point and a suitable solid bit of boat on the opposite side, pull hard and tie off. This should hold the engine slightly tilted on its mounts.

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16 minutes ago, Awayonmyboat said:

If the needed gap increase is only 1cm why not just try tieing a rope between the engine lifting point and a suitable solid bit of boat on the opposite side, pull hard and tie off. This should hold the engine slightly tilted on its mounts.

This would be a very painless way to do it! If the rubber bushes in the mounts really would give me 1cm

Edited by nickhindle
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2 hours ago, Slim said:

 

 

No expert but my first thought is don't install calorifier there. Going forward any form of maintenance would be a nightmare, Leaks, immersion heater element change etc,etc.  In the end it's your call

 

 

Assuming there's another suitable location for it of course. On many narrowboats there; just isn't. 

 

The other advice could be not to install a calorifer and instead install an instant gas water heater, but that might not be a useful suggestion either.

Edited by blackrose
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8 hours ago, nickhindle said:

Hi all,

 

I may need to tilt my Vetus M4.15 engine to starboard (or drop the whole thing) to increase the gap on the port side between engine and deck by about 1cm, so I can get a new calorifier through to it's home on the rear bulkhead.

 

The maintenance book I use ("Narrow Boat Engine" by Stephanie Horton) says in no way should I move the upper nuts on the engine mounting bolts, or I might muck up the alignment of the coupling (which I don't think is flexible).

 

This suggests I will need to slacken the lower bolts port side and then wind down the starboard bolts until I've got my 1cm.

 

Any expert recommendations?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

It seems very odd that the book says do not move the upper nuts. It is the lower nuts that determine the alignment. In theory you could remove the top nuts, lift engine and then replace. As long as you dont move the lower nuts the alignment will remain the same.

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13 minutes ago, Steve56 said:

It seems very odd that the book says do not move the upper nuts. It is the lower nuts that determine the alignment. In theory you could remove the top nuts, lift engine and then replace. As long as you dont move the lower nuts the alignment will remain the same.

This is exactly what I thougnt

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18 minutes ago, nickhindle said:

This is exactly what I thougnt

That makes three of us.

 

As she based a lot of that book on my work I think the OP may have misread it.  I think that part refers to what to do if you find loose nuts on a mount. As the top nut is a self locker more often than not it will not have moved so with loose nuts always tighten the lower up against the top, never the top nut down onto the bottom one. If you did that there is an almost certain chance the engine will be pushed out of alignment.

 

Trouble is some Vetus mounts seem to use normal top nuts.

 

Personally I would tilt the engine but unless it has an Aquadrive/Pythondrive the shaft would need freeing. Just don't touch the bottom nuts/

Edited by Tony Brooks
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4 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If the engine really must be moved, then you could count and record the number of turns made on each nut, then reverse that after. Still a good idea to check the alignment when finished as it may not have been perfect to start with.

Jen

Yes I'm quite keen on checking the alignment, as although the engine appears to have been fitted well, things like pipes and cables are just hanging, which makes me think the fitters might not have spent much time on finer details like alignment.

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10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

That makes three of us.

 

As she based a lot of that book on my work I think the OP may have misread it.  I think that part refers to what to do if you find loose nuts on a mount. As the top nut is a self locker more often than not it will not have moved so with loose nuts always tighten the lower up against the top, never the top nut down onto the bottom one. If you did that there is an almost certain chance the engine will be pushed out of alignment.

 

Trouble is some Vetus mounts seem to use normal top nuts.

 

Personally I would tilt the engine but unless it has an Aquadrive/Pythondrive the shaft would need freeing. Just don't touch the bottom nuts/

Thanks Tony.

 

They are normal nuts on top. None of them are loose so I think I can be confident that I can put it back to it's previous position.

 

 

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Just now, nickhindle said:

Thanks Tony.

 

They are normal nuts on top. None of them are loose so I think I can be confident that I can put it back to it's previous position.

 

 

In that case when done and you are sure of the alignment clean the stud and nut a put a dab of paint onto both. That way if one did come loose you could see if it was the top nut than moved. Actually I would probably carefully put a centre punch into the angle between nut and stud to leave both slightly indented.

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10 hours ago, Slim said:

 

 

No expert but my first thought is don't install calorifier there. Going forward any form of maintenance would be a nightmare, Leaks, immersion heater element change etc,etc.  In the end it's your call

As for altering the engine alignment any tampering with the engine mounts will have this effect. Re-alignment isn't difficult dependent upon mechanical skills

This!

 

My old calorifier exploded and it wasn't possible to get out past the engine.  I got a new one and located it in a much more sensible place.  The old exploded one is still there.

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1 hour ago, nickhindle said:

Thanks Tony.

 

They are normal nuts on top. None of them are loose so I think I can be confident that I can put it back to it's previous position.

 

 

Get 4 more nuts and lock them down onto the top nuts. This should hold the top nuts in position.

You can then use the lower nuts to lower the engine, winding them back up when finished.

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2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

This!

 

My old calorifier exploded and it wasn't possible to get out past the engine.  I got a new one and located it in a much more sensible place.  The old exploded one is still there.

I'd beat with a heavy hammer until comes out, they fetch good money at the scrap metal merchants.

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1 hour ago, Steve56 said:

It seems very odd that the book says do not move the upper nuts. It is the lower nuts that determine the alignment. In theory you could remove the top nuts, lift engine and then replace. As long as you dont move the lower nuts the alignment will remain the same.

I’m guessing that’s Ms Horton of RCR fame....in which case it might have some use as ballast but little else......

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2 hours ago, frangar said:

I’m guessing that’s Ms Horton of RCR fame....in which case it might have some use as ballast but little else......

I resent the implication knowing the history of the book. As I said probably a misunderstanding of what is written - not that I have copy of the book to check.

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11 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I resent the implication knowing the history of the book. As I said probably a misunderstanding of what is written - not that I have copy of the book to check.

Given the history of RCR staff....I won’t use the term engineers...it’s an implication I stand by...if you had anything to do with said book then If I was you I’d disassociate myself from it!....

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6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I resent the implication knowing the history of the book. As I said probably a misunderstanding of what is written - not that I have copy of the book to check.

You have been plagiarised Tony, and badly too.

 

I would paint the bottom nuts and the sections of studs below nuts on one side only. Then if the bottom nuts move you can see where they were.

Wizz off the top nuts and push the engine over.

Or as has been said remove some foam if you can and fit a lagging jacket after fitting.

I had a boat with the calorifier in the shower room, pocketed sliding door too small to pass it through when it leaked.  Had a couple of sleepless nights imagining cutting the boat apart to get it out to repair/replace.

Then I realised that the 500 Houdini hatch was JUST big enough to get it through!

TD'

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On 15/07/2020 at 09:11, doratheexplorer said:

This!

 

My old calorifier exploded and it wasn't possible to get out past the engine.  I got a new one and located it in a much more sensible place.  The old exploded one is still there.

On fitting the new calorifier in a better place.  The fitter told me that engine bays are a poor choice for calorfiers.  Too much exposure to hot and cold gradually weakens the metal until they explode.  Is this right?  Or a myth?

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I have experienced boats with engine and cabin mounted calorifiers.

 

The issue I found with boats with engine hole mounted calorifiers is that being mounted lower, and often horizontally, they are much more prone to air locks.

 

Also they seem to lose more heat overnight than one within the confines of the cabin, probably because the ambient temperature in the engine hole drops lower than the cabin on cold nights.

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