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The machine stops (followed by white smoke!)


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2 minutes ago, pedroinlondon said:

Interesting and quite possible.

Is there a way of getting biocide to the affected area? I don't suppose there would be a point in adding it to the tank at this stage.

How did you fix it?

 

How does diesel bug explain the white smoke you saw?

 

Initially you can try to get rid of diesel bug by paying a company to "polish" your fuel (pass it through ever finer filters to remove the bug) and replace your fuel filter with a new one.

 

If that doesn't work, then the company will have to steam clean all your fuel pipes and tank.

 

To check if you have the bug remove the fuel filter and look inside it. If the fuel is reddish and bright there is no bug present. If it has brown ot black deposits in it, you have the bug. 

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So here.

Big correction: the smoke forms straight away once the key is turned to the first position (checking batteries et al?)

As the gopro was right in front of the area and I could see the image on my phone while standing by the ignition, I didn't proceed to start the engine as I saw the smoke as it was forming.

Sorry can't really describe the smell, but it's not burning rubber and does not smell as other electric fires I've smelled in the past...

So something electrical and you guys suspected.

But what is it??

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

That looks like an energise to run solenoid to me, and I can't think of anything that will produce smoke that quickly except an electrical fault. 

Yup. Can see the plug on the bottom. That's a solenoid.

And the blistered pain on the outside also points to possible local overheating (shorting coil ).

 

19 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

To stop your engine do you turn the key off or press a stop button before turning the key off

I think I have asked that twice now but the OP fails to answer.

 

Edited add that I think that we can conclude its energise to run.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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8 hours ago, cuthound said:

I suspect overheating if the white smoke is coming from within the engine hole. Fuel bug usually just stops the engine and water in the fuel results in the engine stopping and a small amount of white smoke coming from the exhaust.

 

How do I know this? Many years ago when we had our second shareboat the yard we were based at didn't realise they had to drain condensation from the bottom of their above ground bulk diesel tank periodically.

 

The net result was they filled my shareboat with around 50 litres of water along with the diesel when they filled it up.

 

A few days later the engine died and wouldn't restart, because the engine was trying to run on water!

 

White smoke was wisping out of the exhaust.

 

Draining the water, adding more diesel, changing the fuel filter and bleeding the fuel system got us going again.

And if I remember correctly, we had to have a new fuel injection pump too?

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1 hour ago, Sir Nibble said:

That looks like an energise to run solenoid to me, and I can't think of anything that will produce smoke that quickly except an electrical fault. 

Yup. Can see the plug on the bottom. That's a solenoid.

Thanks

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

And the blistered pain on the outside also points to possible local overheating (shorting coil ).

 

I think I have asked that twice now but the OP fails to answer.

 

Edited add that I think that we can conclude its energise to run.

The engine is turned on and off by key only. No stop buttons at all.

Sorry foor missing questions. This site on mobile is a bit chaotic and I don't have my laptop here.

20200711_185135.jpg

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2 hours ago, davem399 said:

And if I remember correctly, we had to have a new fuel injection pump too?

 

Yes but only because the first numpty mechanic broke the bleed screw off.

 

The next day Ownerships sent Sam Matts of Foxton Boat Services  who removed either 15 litres of water from the fuel tank and fitted a new lift pump.

Edited by cuthound
To add the last paragraph
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23 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

So its the energised to run solenoid or the relay near it that's cooked?

TD'

I can't see a relay near it? Do you know Canaline fit a relay? judging by the smoke in the video its the solenoid. I mention the relay in case the OP goes looking for something that is not there.

 

I wonder if its a two coil relay with internal contacts that have welded together. That would soon burn out the coil(s).

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4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I can't see a relay near it? Do you know Canaline fit a relay? judging by the smoke in the video its the solenoid. I mention the relay in case the OP goes looking for something that is not there.

 

I wonder if its a two coil relay with internal contacts that have welded together. That would soon burn out the coil(s).

And I suspect that the coil is swimming in fuel too, hence the smoke. Could be a timer on the engagement coil.

OP, pull the plug off and count the connections. If there's two then the solenoid probably has internal contacts like Tony says, if three then there is an external timer that will probably need changing too.

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34 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

And I suspect that the coil is swimming in fuel too, hence the smoke. Could be a timer on the engagement coil.

OP, pull the plug off and count the connections. If there's two then the solenoid probably has internal contacts like Tony says, if three then there is an external timer that will probably need changing too.

 

Thanks Sir N, a timer on a stop solenoid is a new one on me.

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32 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Thanks Sir N, a timer on a stop solenoid is a new one on me.

500 millisecond pulse on the engagement winding. Doesn't work any better than mechanically operated contacts but has the advantage of adding a spiffy microchip and a power transistor and quadrupling the cost of the installation. Probably a design award in it for someone.

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11 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

500 millisecond pulse on the engagement winding. Doesn't work any better than mechanically operated contacts but has the advantage of adding a spiffy microchip and a power transistor and quadrupling the cost of the installation. Probably a design award in it for someone.

I can see the logic for an ECU controlled engine, effectively a cheaper and arguably more reliable solenoid for the cost of a few lines of code and and output line. makes no sense to me for a mechanically controlled diesel.

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23 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I can see the logic for an ECU controlled engine, effectively a cheaper and arguably more reliable solenoid for the cost of a few lines of code and and output line. makes no sense to me for a mechanically controlled diesel.

I can't see the sense in replacing a set of contacts with effectively a 555 and a solid state relay and charging £50 for it. Nothing but digital electronics will do for the fine and instantly reactive control needed for the "new cleaner diesels" (TM). That's the ones you see banging out black smoke because a new injector costs a three figure sum and has to be coded in to the ECU.

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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

I wonder if its a two coil relay with internal contacts that have welded together. That would soon burn out the coil(s).

Takes me back to the days when I mended pinball machines and the Flippers

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  • 2 weeks later...

So... it was either the solenoid or the plug or (most probably:) both.

The smoke was possibly the plastic.

Now, is there a name for the cable with the plug that fits in the solenoid? The plug itself has melted and it looks like the end is factory fitted.

 

20200723_155632.jpg

20200723_174916.jpg.7dde4019a6988ed62e617faad8f5c481.jpgSo... it was either the solenoid or the plug or (most probably:) both.

The smoke was possibly the plastic.

Now, is there a name for the cable with the plug that fits in the solenoid? The plug itself has melted and it looks like the end is factory fitted.

 

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It looks like a three female blade connector but it is probably indexed and you would have to buy the plastic case and the blades, fit the blades and pull them into the case. The problem is I doubt you will have the correct crimping tool for those blades.

 

My inclination if it were my own boat (not a customers) I would make sure I knew which cable went onto which terminal on the stop solenoid because if you get it wrong you may well be in  trouble and then crimp "normal" female blades.  Maybe thread the cables through a piece of plywood or plastic marked so you know which end goes where.

 

If you can get the whole cable assembly off OR cut a length off the end a decent autoelectrical setup shoudl be able to put an new one on the end and then you can rejoin the cable observing the colour codes (best check them before cutting in case they are all the same colour)

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It would appear to be a 2 pin plug. Chop the burnt socket off, crimp 2 ordinary 6mm female spade crips onto the wires and connect them to the pins in the solenoid the right way around same as original.

The problem was caused by water dripping into the socket.  Find out where from and stop it.

TD'

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13 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

It would appear to be a 2 pin plug. Chop the burnt socket off, crimp 2 ordinary 6mm female spade crips onto the wires and connect them to the pins in the solenoid the right way around same as original.

The problem was caused by water dripping into the socket.  Find out where from and stop it.

TD'

Definitely 3 pin.

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14 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

It looks like a three female blade connector but it is probably indexed and you would have to buy the plastic case and the blades, fit the blades and pull them into the case. The problem is I doubt you will have the correct crimping tool for those blades.

 

My inclination if it were my own boat (not a customers) I would make sure I knew which cable went onto which terminal on the stop solenoid because if you get it wrong you may well be in  trouble and then crimp "normal" female blades.  Maybe thread the cables through a piece of plywood or plastic marked so you know which end goes where.

 

If you can get the whole cable assembly off OR cut a length off the end a decent autoelectrical setup shoudl be able to put an new one on the end and then you can rejoin the cable observing the colour codes (best check them before cutting in case they are all the same colour)

Morning Tony

 

Thanks for your suggestions.

I am more inclined to follow your latter suggestion as not to disturb the other cables that share a conduit all the way to the starter motor (and possibly other parts?).
Unfortunately I didn't have time to follow the cable properly yesterday, will try again later.

As for this cable, is it overly complicated inside? You mention the colour codes. Do you know how many wires are inside such cable?

You're right, I don't have crimper for this unusual square blades so will ask the help of an electrician or auto electrical shop. I'm only familiar with fitting in cabin and solar electrics, which is much easier and forgiving than engine electrics...

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