Time to fit a second tank for central heating

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Essentially we are comparing like for like. Had I asked for an opinion on the cost of heating systems your view may have had some validity but the matter that was actually under discussion was the type of heating. I didn't ask for any opinion on cost because I already knew what it  was. You chose to share with us the cost of yours even though it had no relevance to the discussion and then offered the opinion that I was going to be overcharged for a job that you had no knowledge of. 

 

In addition to the above, I tend to try to get a job done properly, not necessarily cheaply (the two rarely overlap) and I wouldn't take any advice from someone who, on their own admission, had already bought a dud refrigerator

1 - The freezer wasn't duff when I bought it, otherwise to use your words your comments 'would have had some validity'. In case you are aware it's not unknown for appliances to go wrong after they have been purchased. Would I now buy another Hotpoint freezer or fridge? definitely not.

 

2 - I wasn't suggesting for one second that you should let me advise you, I'm not gas safe registered, I merely referred to a similar scenario that somebody I know encountered that was resolved in a gas safe manner by a gas safe engineer and at not a massive additional cost. It's actually quite a common problem.

 

3 - If you in your original post had simply said "forking out £3,000 or so for a new gas boiler plus some additional work that I now find is required" It would have been a lot clearer that it wasn't just a straightforward swap and I wouldn't have thought 'somebody was having your eyes out'. That comment was not maligning you in any way BTW it was potentially maligning the person who (based on the info. you provided) was over charging you for a straightforward boiler swap.

 

4 - I also get work like this done properly and safely. But equally I baulk at paying more than I should when I can get the same job done to the same standard for less cost than that is fine by me. As it happens ours wasn't the cheapest quote but the other guy who quoted us (also gas safe) it turned out didn't have a fantastic reputation so we went with somebody charging a bit more and got a quality safe job done.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by The Happy Nomad

[peterboat]

What a can of worms! and it shows how threads morph into something else ?

I will say again I know one person with air source heating David at the garage its reliable, I know of two ground source heaters Philip at the farm his is the buried in the field pipe version works well and I have seen him this morning it works well and has been reliable, his solar pays the bill. The second one is the post office in Auchencairn this is the bore hole version, it works to well, in winter the windows are open to get rid off heat.

Now for WV he may be able to get a grant and fit the system for a comparable price to what he has been quoted, the advantages are its clean, as wind farms become more prolific along with his solar the energy used to power the system will be clean. Gas is the past and we know that to be true it will no doubt incur tax penalties in the future to steer people away from it, their is talk of adding Hydrogen or methane to clean it up but this could be expensive leading to bigger bills, anyway its up to him its his dosh and he will spend it however is best for him

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

What a can of worms! and it shows how threads morph into something else ?

I will say again I know one person with air source heating David at the garage its reliable, I know of two ground source heaters Philip at the farm his is the buried in the field pipe version works well and I have seen him this morning it works well and has been reliable, his solar pays the bill. The second one is the post office in Auchencairn this is the bore hole version, it works to well, in winter the windows are open to get rid off heat.

Now for WV he may be able to get a grant and fit the system for a comparable price to what he has been quoted, the advantages are its clean, as wind farms become more prolific along with his solar the energy used to power the system will be clean. Gas is the past and we know that to be true it will no doubt incur tax penalties in the future to steer people away from it, their is talk of adding Hydrogen or methane to clean it up but this could be expensive leading to bigger bills, anyway its up to him its his dosh and he will spend it however is best for him

Absolutely -

 

As an aside since this thread started Facebook and Google have been bombarding me with ruddy ads' for the things.

 

And links to a company that is offering up to £14K in gov.t grants (per household) to swap so gawd knows how much one costs to install. Like most things 'green' once economies of scale kick in us mere mortals will hopefully be able to afford one (Along with an electric car of course!) ?

[GUMPY]

Nobody has mentioned electric central heating boilers, direct replacement for a gas boiler and surely running costs of £0 if you have enough solar.

Or are they complete rubbish?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Nobody has mentioned electric central heating boilers, direct replacement for a gas boiler and surely running costs of £0 if you have enough solar.

Or are they complete rubbish?

I did mention them further up.

 

We didn't opt. for one when we changed 3 years ago as they didn't appear to be well established and the reliability seem to be a big unknown.

 

There are a lot more around nowadays and if we were changing now I would be giving them a close look.

[GUMPY]

1 hour ago, The Happy Nomad said:

I did mention them further up.

 

We didn't opt. for one when we changed 3 years ago as they didn't appear to be well established and the reliability seem to be a big unknown.

 

There are a lot more around nowadays and if we were changing now I would be giving them a close look.

Sorry missed that.

Our gas boiler is 11 years old so we will be looking to replace it in the next few years hence my curiosity. No solar here as we didnt buy the house until after FIT finished and I haven't yet found a way of funding it, since assuming a 20year payback on investment, I may well be dead by then so wouldn't see any benefit.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Loddon

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Sorry missed that.

Our gas boiler is 11 years old so we will be looking to replace it in the next few years hence my curiosity. No solar here as we didnt buy the house until after FIT finished and I haven't yet found a way of funding it, since assuming a 20year payback on investment, I may well be dead by then.

11 is still quite young. Our house is 26 years old and the boiler we replaced 3 years ago was the original. It was repaireable but at considerable cost, the heat exchanger had nearly rusted through.

 

But, and its a big but it was also incredibly innefficient and I suspect your 11 year old one is too, especially if its a hot water cylinder based system.

 

With what we are saving on gas by my very rough calculations our swap will have pretty well paid for itself in another 3 or 4 years. If you alredy have a combi the cost to change should be less of course as there is minimal pipe work required. But the saxings might not be as great of course.

 

I was sceptical about the savings described by our fitter thinking he just wanted us to purchase a new combi but to be fair he was pretty well spot on.

 

Ps the other bonus was we freed up a cupboard of the big copper cylinder.

Edited July 13, 2020 by The Happy Nomad

[GUMPY]

Yes ours is the old style with a hot water tank, however its only timed to come on for 45mins twice a day and the stat shuts it down after about 30mins. It appears to be 90.9% efficient better than some combi boilers.

Wouldn't benefit from gaining the space where the tank is it would just give C more space to store stuff

I will keep looking.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Loddon

[Trevor Lyons]

When we moved to our house, a large Edwardian mid-terrace with gas central heating, it was cold and draughty. We've insulated the roof, had cavity wall insulation (this must have been one of the first English houses with cavity walls) and was I have had air source heating on my house for 6 years, and it's been brilliant. The gas boiler has been disconnected. I have 14 solar panels on the roof, giving about 3.5kW, and the air source heating uses most of this, producing a massive amount of warmth and more hot water than we can use.

 

The installation costs were recovered as follows: the Government repays the capital coat of the air-source system (which cost £10K) over 7 years, so we've had 6/7 of our capital back; and we are paid for the solar power we produce, even though we use almost all of it ourselves. When the 7 years is up, we'll reconnect the gas boiler just for use in the evening, when the sun has set and electricity is expensive.

 

Without government cash help, using similar technology on a boat would have to be very cost effective. Being careful, I have installed on my barge 4 300W panels (1.2kW in total), the complete system costing around £600 (not including four new AGM traction batteries, should they become necessary - £600 (4 x £150) from Photonic Universe. I also have a Renytek 400W wind generator with DC (i.e with an inbuilt controller and rectifier) that I bought cheaply, and I may install that when the barge is static over the winter.

 

It seems to me that the best sort of heat pump would not be air-source (and obviously not ground source!), but canal source.  Water has a very high specific heat, and in a canal there's lots of it! Also, because, solid water (ice) is less dense than liquid water and so floats, canal water beneath any ice will always be above freezing, which is warm enough for a heat pump to work. If a barge has cooling skin-tanks or (like mine) external cooling pipes, there seems no reason why an indirect engine cooling system should not be part of a heat pump system when the motor is not operating. Any ideas?

[phantom_iv]

15 hours ago, Trevor Lyons said:

It seems to me that the best sort of heat pump would not be air-source (and obviously not ground source!), but canal source.  Water has a very high specific heat, and in a canal there's lots of it! Also, because, solid water (ice) is less dense than liquid water and so floats, canal water beneath any ice will always be above freezing, which is warm enough for a heat pump to work. If a barge has cooling skin-tanks or (like mine) external cooling pipes, there seems no reason why an indirect engine cooling system should not be part of a heat pump system when the motor is not operating. Any ideas?

 

Ground source heat pumps are just water-water heat pumps where the "source" water has been piped though some pipes in the ground. Can't why the same heat pump technology couldn't be used via a skin tank of some sort... albeit you might want a smaller heat pump with lower power requirements than a typical domestic installation.

[Tracy D'arth]

You green warriors are going to freeze the canals solid for most of the year. What happens if we harvest too much light and heat from the planet? The next ice age? Constant winter?

 

How can oil and gas be bad? It comes from nature out of the ground and it is vegetable based anyway so its vegan too.

[ditchcrawler]

38 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

You green warriors are going to freeze the canals solid for most of the year. What happens if we harvest too much light and heat from the planet? The next ice age? Constant winter?

 

How can oil and gas be bad? It comes from nature out of the ground and it is vegetable based anyway so its vegan too.

Thats what worries me about all these wind turbines and solar panels sopping up natural recourses. ????? 

[Tracy D'arth]

30 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Thats what worries me about all these wind turbines and solar panels sopping up natural recourses. ????? 

Consider the 1st law of thermodynamics.  Energy is neither created or destroyed.  But the daft space nuts keep chucking bits of our planet away into the void, the planet will collapse.

[TheBiscuits]

4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

But the daft space nuts keep chucking bits of our planet away into the void

 

Think of it as returning (in installments)  the asteroid that finished off the dinosaurs ...

[noone]

?? Just 4 pages to get from "fitting a new diesel tank"...to "the dinosaurs!!!" ..How do you people do it!?.??

[Tracy D'arth]

2 hours ago, Leggers do it lying down said:

?? Just 4 pages to get from "fitting a new diesel tank"...to "the dinosaurs!!!" ..How do you people do it!?.??

Lateral thinking, drink, boredom, over active imagination and desperation.

[Trevor Lyons]

On 01/11/2020 at 19:37, Trevor Lyons said:

It seems that the best sort of heat pump would not be air-source (and obviously not ground source!), but canal source.  Water has a very high specific heat, and in a canal there's lots of it! Also, because, solid water (ice) is less dense than liquid water and so floats, canal water beneath any ice will always be above freezing, which is warm enough for a heat pump to work. If a barge has cooling skin-tanks or external cooling pipes, there seems no reason why an indirect engine cooling system should not be part of a heat pump system when the motor is not operating.

Quoting myself (sorry!) and trying to return to topic, if that's allowed on this forum (?!), let's look at the advantages of canal-source heating. For each watt used to power the heat pump, up to 4 watts  of heat could be extracted from the canal. So a 250W pump could release a steady 1kW of heat, and 250W should surely be within the competence of most barges provided they have at least some solar panels and/or a wind generator.

 

The question is, why isn't every barge heated like this? (Answer: Tradition! Just like cold water tanks in the attic that prevent mains pressure being available, and which can fill up with detritus and dead birds so that only one tap (the one in the kitchen) provides drinking water. Blind unthinking tradition!)

Edited November 3, 2020 by Trevor Lyons
Typos

[mrsmelly]

17 hours ago, Leggers do it lying down said:

?? Just 4 pages to get from "fitting a new diesel tank"...to "the dinosaurs!!!" ..How do you people do it!?.??

My boat has a dedicated diesel tank for heating from new 

[TheBiscuits]

7 minutes ago, Trevor Lyons said:

Quoting myself (sorry!) and trying to return to topic, if that's allowed on this forum (?!) let's look at the advantage of canal-source heating. For each Watt used to power the heat pump, up to 4 Watts  of heat should be extracted from the canal. So a250W pump could release a steady 1kW of heat, and 250w should surely be pithing the competence of most barges provided they have at lease some solar panels and/or a wind generator.

 

The question is, why isn't every barge heated like this? (Answer: tradition! Just like cold water tanks in the attic that prevent mains pressure being available, and which can fill up with detritus and dead birds so that only one tap (the one in the kitchen) has drinking water. Blind unthinking tradition!)

 

Can you supply 20+ amps at 12V 24 hours a day from your battery bank?  I can't.  "Normal" power usage on boats is about 80 - 120 Ah per day, and your pump is taking 500 Ah.

 

Just to drive the heat pump you'll need nine standard 110Ah lesiure batteries, probably plus the usual four for other domestic loads ...

 

... and then you will need to replace about 700Ah daily into the batteries. 

 

How many solar panels do you call "some", and what output do yo expect in early January when you need the heating most?

[peterboat]

15 minutes ago, Trevor Lyons said:

Quoting myself (sorry!) and trying to return to topic, if that's allowed on this forum (?!) let's look at the advantage of canal-source heating. For each Watt used to power the heat pump, up to 4 Watts  of heat should be extracted from the canal. So a250W pump could release a steady 1kW of heat, and 250w should surely be pithing the competence of most barges provided they have at lease some solar panels and/or a wind generator.

 

The question is, why isn't every barge heated like this? (Answer: tradition! Just like cold water tanks in the attic that prevent mains pressure being available, and which can fill up with detritus and dead birds so that only one tap (the one in the kitchen) has drinking water. Blind unthinking tradition!)

I have a lot of solar over 4KW on my widebeam even with that much I dont think their would be enough to heat the boat, I have thought about going the heat pump way and my keel cooling tank is redundant as I have an electric motor, so I might trow some more thought at this problem

5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Can you supply 20+ amps at 12V 24 hours a day from your battery bank?  I can't.  "Normal" power usage on boats is about 80 - 120 Ah per day, and your pump is taking 500 Ah.

 

Just to drive the heat pump you'll need nine standard 110Ah lesiure batteries, probably plus the usual four for other domestic loads ...

 

... and then you will need to replace about 700Ah daily into the batteries. 

 

How many solar panels do you call "some", and what output do yo expect in early January when you need the heating most?

I was thinking of more an Autumn/spring thing than deep winter I am going to see if 1kw heat pump exist

[Trevor Lyons]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

My boat has a dedicated diesel tank for heating from new 

I have a feeling that the EU will not tolerate any red diesel tanks on a barge in Europe, even if it's just for heating. Stupid, I know! And there's the issue of the threat that VAT may be charged each time one enters or leaves the UK and/or the EU, as barges are considered "goods", not "transport" like lorries or cars.

[TheBiscuits]

17 minutes ago, Trevor Lyons said:

And there's the issue of the threat that VAT may be charged each time one enters or leaves the UK and/or the EU, as barges are considered "goods", not "transport" like lorries or cars.

 

Are you sure?

 

Once you have a VAT-paid certificate for both the EU and for the UK you should be able to move back and forth, just keep your proof of VAT status safe!

[noone]

Just found tec. on a 12v 200w water heater..To get the water temp to 55C it requires 16 amps for 22 minutes just to heat 6 litres and then you have to run another pump to circulate it.

Unless there is something more efficient out there,I certainly don't have the power to use it for heating.

[Tracy D'arth]

3 minutes ago, Leggers do it lying down said:

Just found tec. on a 12v 200w water heater..To get the water temp to 55C it requires 16 amps for 22 minutes just to heat 6 litres and then you have to run another pump to circulate it.

Unless there is something more efficient out there,I certainly don't have the power to use it for heating.

Using electricity to heat anything on a boat is never easy or simple, the consumption is just too high for the available energy.

[noone]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Using electricity to heat anything on a boat is never easy or simple, the consumption is just too high for the available energy.

Using one to heat domestic water maybe...I would have to run the engine for 22 mins,but it would heat up faster than my calorifier.

I have always thought about fitting a coil of 8/10mm copper pipe installed against the steel deck-head,with a slow circulation of water flowing through it via the calorifier.During the summer,I am sure it would heat up the calorifier throughout the day!?....I'll put it off til next year...Again!!??