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Time to fit a second tank for central heating


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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Some of us don't have the 'luxury' of gas 'on tap'.

 

We have Calor, for which we pay a premium per litre / kg compared to 'mains gas' and we also have to pay £19 +VAT per month for the privilege of having one of their tanks in the garden (next to the sewage treatment plant - as we don't have mains sewerage either).

Sorry I was really talking about us part time cruisers who have bricks and mortar places to live as well. The price for onboard electricity bears little resemblance to shorside as well as vast swings between winter and summer, when solar makes it almost free.

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Just now, Detling said:

Sorry I was really talking about us part time cruisers who have bricks and mortar places to live as well. The price for onboard electricity bears little resemblance to shorside as well as vast swings between winter and summer, when solar makes it almost free.

 

I was also taking about our 'bricks and mortar'.

We don't all have 'mod-cons' like gas and mains-drains connected.

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20 hours ago, PD1964 said:

Who will it effect? It will be like when a pint of beer went up to a £1. We all still drank it and moaned about it for a short while, but it became the norm. As with this, we will all moan for a bit, but will still go out on our boats. As we do it for the joy of boats and the canals. 

Pubs close every day, the average drinker buys beer in a supermarket and drinks at home.

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20 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Pubs close every day, the average drinker buys beer in a supermarket and drinks at home.

Read what it says. When did beer prices reach £1 per pint? In the 80’s. It’s about how we adapt to change. 
 Another pointless irrelevant to the Thread post.

Edited by PD1964
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1 hour ago, Detling said:

Air source heating and other heat pump methods of heating have the problem of overall costs. Look at your electric and gas bills and you will see that 1kWh of electric is about 3 times the price of 1kWh of gas. A heat pump produces about 3kW of heat for every 1kW of electric put into it, so the number of kWh required to heat a room or hot water is abour 1/3rd of the kWh of gas but the cost is about the same. So you finish up with a more complex piece of equipment (more to break) which costs more to build and install and no real difference in running costs. The best outcome of using heat pumps is that you are reducing the amount of CO2 you put into the atmosphere to heat your house/boat and maybe reducing the air temperature or water temperature at the same time.  But frozen roads and canals and rivers and lakes has human and wildlife implications as well, broken bones and thirsty birds etc. Just imagine what effect the 2000+ boats in London area taking a steady 5kW each from the canal water, how thick would the ice get.

Thats at the present time, what happens when a carbon tax is added? and you can offset the cost by using solar another carbon reducing good thing. We all have to remember that its carbon free by 2050 and gas doesnt fit in with that

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7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Some of us don't have the 'luxury' of gas 'on tap'.

 

We have Calor, for which we pay a premium per litre / kg compared to 'mains gas' and we also have to pay £19 +VAT per month for the privilege of having one of their tanks in the garden (next to the sewage treatment plant - as we don't have mains sewerage either).

That is why I stuck with oil, about 26p/Lt at the moment and that is about 10 kw so say 3p/Kw

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3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

That is why I stuck with oil, about 26p/Lt at the moment and that is about 10 kw so say 3p/Kw

 

We are are on oil (Kero) for heating / hot water but Calor gas for cooking.

 

I think that is about the same price as I paid for my last delivery in March.

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7 hours ago, Detling said:

Air source heating and other heat pump methods of heating have the problem of overall costs. Look at your electric and gas bills and you will see that 1kWh of electric is about 3 times the price of 1kWh of gas. A heat pump produces about 3kW of heat for every 1kW of electric put into it, so the number of kWh required to heat a room or hot water is abour 1/3rd of the kWh of gas but the cost is about the same. So you finish up with a more complex piece of equipment (more to break) which costs more to build and install and no real difference in running costs. The best outcome of using heat pumps is that you are reducing the amount of CO2 you put into the atmosphere to heat your house/boat and maybe reducing the air temperature or water temperature at the same time.  But frozen roads and canals and rivers and lakes has human and wildlife implications as well, broken bones and thirsty birds etc. Just imagine what effect the 2000+ boats in London area taking a steady 5kW each from the canal water, how thick would the ice get.

Heat pumps are just one option I've been looking at, still unsure of the best option but if they are going to impose restrictions on gas use where lies the point in forking out £3,000 or so for a new gas boiler for it to be superseded in 10 years. I'd like to fit something a bit like my current boiler, probably installed back in the 1980's and still in use. I'm not entirely sold on the heat pump being a more complex piece of kit, it is essentially a refrigerator working in reverse, how often does your fridge break down? The installation costs can almost be covered by the financial returns that can be got from the RHI (https://www.gov.uk/domestic-renewable-heat-incentive ) since for an Air Source Heat Pump the return on my property over 7 years is £8,400, £16,800 for a Ground Source Heat pump. Added to that we already have solar panels generating about 1,500Kwh per year.

 

As far as the 'risk' of frozen canals/roads goes, that is something of a red herring. If we could reverse the rate at which the planet is heating up by all fitting heat pumps what is not to like? but given the immensity of the task I don't suppose if everyone in the entire country (or even the entire planet) fitted them it would cool the planet by anything measurable.

5 hours ago, peterboat said:

Thats at the present time, what happens when a carbon tax is added? and you can offset the cost by using solar another carbon reducing good thing. We all have to remember that its carbon free by 2050 and gas doesnt fit in with that

We are both coming from the same place here, but don't forget that whilst solar may assist, it is a bit like solar on the boat, when you need the electric (winter) is the time that you get the least and when you need the least amount of heating/hot water (summer) that is when there will be the most solar generation, shame it's not the other way around:unsure:.

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44 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Heat pumps are just one option I've been looking at, still unsure of the best option but if they are going to impose restrictions on gas use where lies the point in forking out £3,000 or so for a new gas boiler for it to be superseded in 10 years. I'd like to fit something a bit like my current boiler, probably installed back in the 1980's and still in use. I'm not entirely sold on the heat pump being a more complex piece of kit, it is essentially a refrigerator working in reverse, how often does your fridge break down? The installation costs can almost be covered by the financial returns that can be got from the RHI (https://www.gov.uk/domestic-renewable-heat-incentive ) since for an Air Source Heat Pump the return on my property over 7 years is £8,400, £16,800 for a Ground Source Heat pump. Added to that we already have solar panels generating about 1,500Kwh per year.

 

As far as the 'risk' of frozen canals/roads goes, that is something of a red herring. If we could reverse the rate at which the planet is heating up by all fitting heat pumps what is not to like? but given the immensity of the task I don't suppose if everyone in the entire country (or even the entire planet) fitted them it would cool the planet by anything measurable.

We are both coming from the same place here, but don't forget that whilst solar may assist, it is a bit like solar on the boat, when you need the electric (winter) is the time that you get the least and when you need the least amount of heating/hot water (summer) that is when there will be the most solar generation, shame it's not the other way around:unsure:.

Our Hotpoint freezer has broken down annually since it was installed 3 years ago.

 

(In answer to 'how often your fridge breaks down')

 

Ps If you are paying £3k for a gas boiler somebody is having your eyes out.

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2 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Our Hotpoint freezer has broken down annually since it was installed 3 years ago.

 

(In answer to 'how often your fridge breaks down')

 

Ps If you are paying £3k for a gas boiler somebody is having your eyes out.

That is likely to be the cost of installation since it is not possible to legally install a new boiler in the location of the old boiler since the balanced flue is situated too close to the kitchen window. The whole ground floor system would need to be re-designed and the new boiler probably put in the garage, if I couild get all that work done for only £3,000 I'd be content.

 

As far as fridges/freezers go, you must have bought a particularly poor specimen. We only replaced the 30 year old  kitchen fridge after we had left it switched off for 9 months whilst we were elsewhere, up until that time we had no problems with it. Likewise the current freezer is over 20 years old and has never been serviced or failed in any way. 

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1 minute ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

That is likely to be the cost of installation since it is not possible to legally install a new boiler in the location of the old boiler since the balanced flue is situated too close to the kitchen window. The whole ground floor system would need to be re-designed and the new boiler probably put in the garage, if I couild get all that work done for only £3,000 I'd be content.

 

As far as fridges/freezers go, you must have bought a particularly poor specimen. We only replaced the 30 year old  kitchen fridge after we had left it switched off for 9 months whilst we were elsewhere, up until that time we had no problems with it. Likewise the current freezer is over 20 years old and has never been serviced or failed in any way. 

You asked a question I answered it. How do you know you wont buy a 'bad specimen' of heat source pump?

 

You also didnt mention the substantial other works required. How close will it be to your kitchen window?

 

Our last freezer lasted 25 years BTW, thats no guarantee all will.

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1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Heat pumps are just one option I've been looking at, still unsure of the best option but if they are going to impose restrictions on gas use where lies the point in forking out £3,000 or so for a new gas boiler for it to be superseded in 10 years. I'd like to fit something a bit like my current boiler, probably installed back in the 1980's and still in use. I'm not entirely sold on the heat pump being a more complex piece of kit, it is essentially a refrigerator working in reverse, how often does your fridge break down? The installation costs can almost be covered by the financial returns that can be got from the RHI (https://www.gov.uk/domestic-renewable-heat-incentive ) since for an Air Source Heat Pump the return on my property over 7 years is £8,400, £16,800 for a Ground Source Heat pump. Added to that we already have solar panels generating about 1,500Kwh per year.

 

As far as the 'risk' of frozen canals/roads goes, that is something of a red herring. If we could reverse the rate at which the planet is heating up by all fitting heat pumps what is not to like? but given the immensity of the task I don't suppose if everyone in the entire country (or even the entire planet) fitted them it would cool the planet by anything measurable.

We are both coming from the same place here, but don't forget that whilst solar may assist, it is a bit like solar on the boat, when you need the electric (winter) is the time that you get the least and when you need the least amount of heating/hot water (summer) that is when there will be the most solar generation, shame it's not the other way around:unsure:.

With your solar you are getting a return on your investment to offset the electric, I am assuming you are on a good tariff? 

As I said earlier you are investing in the future rather than the past, and as you say refrigeration equipment is normally very reliable 

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11 minutes ago, peterboat said:

With your solar you are getting a return on your investment to offset the electric, I am assuming you are on a good tariff? 

As I said earlier you are investing in the future rather than the past, and as you say refrigeration equipment is normally very reliable 

'Normally'

 

Key word.

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14 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The link in the OP provides this :

 

Sectors retaining entitlement to use red diesel

 

 

 

4.12 It is the government’s intention that people whose primary, or often their only, place of residence is their boat (which has a permanent mooring), will remain entitled to use red diesel.

 

 

I like the bit in brackets. 

 

At the end of the day if the product is still available ie subsidised gas oil it will find it's way into boat fuel tanks. 

 

Systematic and organised testing would probably root out abuse but will this actually happen? 

 

 

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8 hours ago, magnetman said:

I like the bit in brackets. 

 

At the end of the day if the product is still available ie subsidised gas oil it will find it's way into boat fuel tanks. 

 

Systematic and organised testing would probably root out abuse but will this actually happen? 

 

 

Yes, I didn't like to point out that CCers are not included in the exemptions.

 

4.12 It is the government’s intention that people whose primary, or often their only, place of residence is their boat (which has a permanent mooring), will remain entitled to use red diesel.

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16 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

That is likely to be the cost of installation since it is not possible to legally install a new boiler in the location of the old boiler since the balanced flue is situated too close to the kitchen window. The whole ground floor system would need to be re-designed and the new boiler probably put in the garage, if I couild get all that work done for only £3,000 I'd be content.

 

When my boiler was replace it too was too near the kitchen window for a direct replacement.   The solution was a metre or so of pipe to take the flue outlet away from the immediate vicinity.  

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Yes, I didn't like to point out that CCers are not included in the exemptions.

 

4.12 It is the government’s intention that people whose primary, or often their only, place of residence is their boat (which has a permanent mooring), will remain entitled to use red diesel.

I suspect their interpretation of "permanent mooring" is different to how we perceive it.  I like to think I have a permanent mooring, but still go off cruising.  they probably mean permanent as in fixed for a houseboat.

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21 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

You asked a question I answered it. How do you know you wont buy a 'bad specimen' of heat source pump?

 

You also didnt mention the substantial other works required. How close will it be to your kitchen window?

 

Our last freezer lasted 25 years BTW, thats no guarantee all will.

Rather than me not mentioning the other works necessary, you seem to have drawn the assumption that I was 'having my eyes out' without knowledge of what was going to be involved. I have been advised by two heating engineers that the flue is too close to the window (one of whom is a personal friend) so how close it is, is a bit irrelevant. Neither of them would service the boiler since they said that if they did they'd have to condemn it.

4 hours ago, dor said:

When my boiler was replace it too was too near the kitchen window for a direct replacement.   The solution was a metre or so of pipe to take the flue outlet away from the immediate vicinity.  

 

Not really an option in my circumstances, move one way and I'm into next door and move the other way and the drainage system for kitchen sink and washing machine is in the way.

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1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Rather than me not mentioning the other works necessary, you seem to have drawn the assumption that I was 'having my eyes out' without knowledge of what was going to be involved. I have been advised by two heating engineers that the flue is too close to the window (one of whom is a personal friend) so how close it is, is a bit irrelevant. Neither of them would service the boiler since they said that if they did they'd have to condemn it.

Not really an option in my circumstances, move one way and I'm into next door and move the other way and the drainage system for kitchen sink and washing machine is in the way.

If you had mentioned the extra works required I wouldn't have suggested some body was 'having your eyes out' as clearly it was not a straight swap.

 

Obvious surely, we are not psychic, or did you think we were?

 

How close it is indeed relevant, as I know someone who had the exact same issue but it was resolved easily in a 'gas safe' manner by an instsller, hence my question.

 

 

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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5 hours ago, dor said:

When my boiler was replace it too was too near the kitchen window for a direct replacement.   The solution was a metre or so of pipe to take the flue outlet away from the immediate vicinity.  

Exactly.

 

But mr vagabound seems to have subsequently completely misunderstood that its the flue that can be extended and not the boiler location that needs to be moved.

 

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42 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

If you had mentioned the extra works required I wouldn't have suggested some body was 'having your eyes out' as clearly it was not a straight swap.

 

Obvious surely, we are not psychic, or did you think we were?

 

How close it is indeed relevant, as I know someone who had the exact same issue but it was resolved easily in a 'gas safe' manner by an instsller, hence my question.

 

 

Why would I? I was stating a fact and you chose to challenge it without any knowledge of the circumstances, but now it seems it is my fault:unsure:.

 

The position of the flue remains irrelevant since two heating engineers have said that it cannot be placed anywhere near its current location (there are two double opening ground floor windows and a drainage system in the way). I do not need any further advice since I will listen to the experts whose advice seems pretty sound to me since they have actually looked at the situation (unlike some who have chosen to criticise).

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6 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Why would I? I was stating a fact and you chose to challenge it without any knowledge of the circumstances, but now it seems it is my fault:unsure:.

 

The position of the flue remains irrelevant since two heating engineers have said that it cannot be placed anywhere near its current location (there are two double opening ground floor windows and a drainage system in the way). I do not need any further advice since I will listen to the experts whose advice seems pretty sound to me since they have actually looked at the situation (unlike some who have chosen to criticise).

You ommitted the additional work required, so yes actually the misunderstanding is your fault.

 

If you had said the replacement would cost £3000 because "unfortunately additional work is required to bring it up to current stanards" it would have been a lot clearer.

Quite simple really

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2 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

You ommitted the additional work required, so yes actually the misunderstanding is your fault.

 

If you had said the replacement would cost £3000 because "unfortunately additional work is required to bring it up to current stanards" it would have been a lot clearer.

The simple fact is that I had no expectation for someone with no knowledge of the circumstances to feel that they knew better of what the price would be, why would I? If I said that I bought a car for £22,000 would you, with no knowledge of what the car was, offer an opinion that I was being overcharged?

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Just now, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The simple fact is that I had no expectation for someone with no knowledge of the circumstances to feel that they knew better of what the price would be, why would I? If I said that I bought a car for £22,000 would you, with no knowledge of what the car was, offer an opinion that I was being overcharged?

Well we are not quite comparing like for like there are we?

 

And you know it.

 

I know what my standard boiler swap cost.

 

You didn't mention yours was not standard so it was obvious if it was standard it wouldnt have cost so much

 

Simple really.

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3 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The simple fact is that I had no expectation for someone with no knowledge of the circumstances to feel that they knew better of what the price would be, why would I? If I said that I bought a car for £22,000 would you, with no knowledge of what the car was, offer an opinion that I was being overcharged?

But what if I said I had a Fiat 500 car and had to buy a new one that cost me £22,000 I think you would expect me to be talking about another Fiat 500 not an electric Mini

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13 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Well we are not quite comparing like for like there are we?

 

And you know it.

 

I know what my standard boiler swap cost.

 

You didn't mention yours was not standard so it was obvious if it was standard it wouldnt have cost so much

 

Simple really.

Essentially we are comparing like for like. Had I asked for an opinion on the cost of heating systems your view may have had some validity but the matter that was actually under discussion was the type of heating. I didn't ask for any opinion on cost because I already knew what it  was. You chose to share with us the cost of yours even though it had no relevance to the discussion and then offered the opinion that I was going to be overcharged for a job that you had no knowledge of. 

 

In addition to the above, I tend to try to get a job done properly, not necessarily cheaply (the two rarely overlap) and I wouldn't take any advice from someone who, on their own admission, had already bought a dud refrigerator;)

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