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Time to fit a second tank for central heating


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3 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

As someone who travels a lot and therefore buys about 1000 litres a year, I find that even a slight increase is rather significant.

As someone who currently uses 10 litres an hour at cruise speeds, 1000 litres is about 1 months usage, and with 2800 litre fuel tanks it costs a fair penny to fill-up.

Unfortunately it will cost us all to 'save the planet'.

 

I was looking back thru my logbooks and saw that when we ordered a road tanker to come down to the harbour in Port St Mary's (Isle of Man), it was 21p per litre, crossing to Scotland, in Tarbert we paid 29p per litre, Cambletown 25p litre and back in Holyhead Fish-Dock we paid 20p per litre.

 

Those were the days.

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Those were the days.

Indeed they were! I see from one of our old logs, deciding not to buy diesel from a place in Loughborough because they were charging the "outrageous" sum of 13p per litre!

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60p a gallon when I first started boating in the mid nineties. 

 

Something which has always interested me about this fuel thing is who is actually responsible for the tax part. 

 

As an example let's say a fuel boat owner runs a business selling 35sec heating oil. They pump it into your tank, you pay them and they carry on with their day. 

 

Or does this also include heating oil. 

 

If it does then it's going to hit quite a few householders who are doing something nobody can choose not to do in this country which is heat their home. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

60p a gallon when I first started boating in the mid nineties. 

 

Something which has always interested me about this fuel thing is who is actually responsible for the tax part. 

 

As an example let's say a fuel boat owner runs a business selling 35sec heating oil. They pump it into your tank, you pay them and they carry on with their day. 

 

Or does this also include heating oil. 

 

If it does then it's going to hit quite a few householders who are doing something nobody can choose not to do in this country which is heat their home. 

 

 

 

 

In comparison to other heating methods, oil fired central heating is already quite pricey so they have already got used to the idea of paying more for their heating. They have the option of changing their heating methods, which may be better for all of us. Heat pumps are an option for those not connected to the gas mains (with the advantage of something like £1200 income per annum from the RHI initiative(https://www.gov.uk/domestic-renewable-heat-incentive)) so perhaps now is the time to look at alternatives

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8 minutes ago, magnetman said:

There I was thinking gas was bad for the invironment. 

It is indeed, sadly it remains one of the cheaper options. What is going to happen in future years is anyone's guess. I'm looking at changing the 35 year old boiler at my postal address, but what to? When I first considered it the condensing boilers were the way to go, but they don't seem to have much of a lifespan and regulations are likely to change over the nest few years.

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12 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

It is indeed, sadly it remains one of the cheaper options. What is going to happen in future years is anyone's guess. I'm looking at changing the 35 year old boiler at my postal address, but what to? When I first considered it the condensing boilers were the way to go, but they don't seem to have much of a lifespan and regulations are likely to change over the nest few years.

Air source heating and solar to offset the electric cost?

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27 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

It is indeed, sadly it remains one of the cheaper options. What is going to happen in future years is anyone's guess. I'm looking at changing the 35 year old boiler at my postal address, but what to? When I first considered it the condensing boilers were the way to go, but they don't seem to have much of a lifespan and regulations are likely to change over the nest few years.

If you choose a condensing boiler you will amazed at how much less gas you will use.

 

Heating water to store it in a big tank is incredibly inefficient.

 

However you are correct they are a lot more complex than a traditional boiler so potentially a lot of things to go wrong and reduce the lifespan.

13 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Air source heating and solar to offset the electric cost?

Installation cost being? Our condensing boiler cost £1800 all in.

 

A quick google reveals between £7k to £11k

 

Really?

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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8 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

If you choose a condensing boiler you will amazed at how much less gas you will use.

We went the condensing route three years ago. Ten year warranty (subject to approved servicing) and still being chased by British Gas on the "we don't believe your self declared readings..."

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The interesting part will be cleaning tanks to remove all traces of red dye...........virtually impossible methinks. Be interesting to see if this affects the construction industry...........another excuse to inflate the cost of HS2.

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12 hours ago, pearley said:

They built the Newbury bypass with a cycle lane but don't recall seeing a cyclist using it.

Cyclists in the UK take their lives in their hands every time they go on a public road. In Belgium and France cyclists get treated with respect.

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10 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

It is indeed, sadly it remains one of the cheaper options. What is going to happen in future years is anyone's guess. I'm looking at changing the 35 year old boiler at my postal address, but what to? When I first considered it the condensing boilers were the way to go, but they don't seem to have much of a lifespan and regulations are likely to change over the nest few years.

Home insulation schemes would be a good way to go. The chancellor announced a small scheme this week, I think? What was it, £2 billion?, £5 billion? In Germany I believe it is €40 billion, here if you are lucky, the cost is €1 per house.

10 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

If you choose a condensing boiler you will amazed at how much less gas you will use.

 

Heating water to store it in a big tank is incredibly inefficient.

 

However you are correct they are a lot more complex than a traditional boiler so potentially a lot of things to go wrong and reduce the lifespan.

Installation cost being? Our condensing boiler cost £1800 all in.

 

A quick google reveals between £7k to £11k

 

Really?

A client of mine built his own house here about 7 years ago, with a ground source heat pump. No idea of the set up costs, but as it was part of the building costs, sort of irrelevant. Annual bills are bout €125. That will repay itself fairly fast.

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53 minutes ago, LEO said:

The interesting part will be cleaning tanks to remove all traces of red dye...........virtually impossible methinks. Be interesting to see if this affects the construction industry...........another excuse to inflate the cost of HS2.

The link in the OP provides this :

 

Sectors retaining entitlement to use red diesel

 

4.1 The government is removing the entitlement to use red diesel from most sectors from April 2022 so that the fuel they use is taxed at a rate that more fairly reflects the negative environmental impact of the emissions they produce. This will also incentivise businesses to improve the energy efficiency of their vehicles and machinery, invest in cleaner alternatives, or just use less fuel.

 

4.2 While this is the right thing to do for the environment and for air quality, the government is not proposing to change the entitlement to use red diesel for agriculture (as well as forestry, horticulture and pisciculture), rail and for non-commercial heating (including domestic heating) from April 2022.

 

Agriculture

 

4.3 The government recognises the continued importance of red diesel to the agricultural sector, so announced at Budget 2020 its intention not to change farmers’ entitlement to use red diesel.

 

4.4 Given the entitlements to use red diesel in forestry, horticulture and pisciculture (i.e. fish farming) are closely connected to the entitlement to use red diesel in agriculture, the government announced that it intends to treat these three sectors in the same way.

 

Rail

 

4.5 The removal of the red diesel entitlement for passenger or freight journeys risks creating perverse environmental outcomes, namely transferring rail freight or passengers to more polluting lorries, coaches and cars if costs rise. For example, each tonne of freight transported by rail is estimated to reduce CO2 emissions by 76 per cent compared with road transport.

 

4.6 The government is planning to review the entitlement for red diesel to be used in rail vehicles once alternatives become available that would avoid freight or passenger travel moving to more polluting road transport if costs were to rise.

 

4.7 The precise definition of what constitutes a rail vehicle will be included in the legislation covering the tax changes. However, the government’s intention is that this will include diesel and diesel/electric hybrid locomotives and multiple units, as well as diesel shunters and specialist rail-mounted equipment, such as rail layers and ballast tampers.

 

Non-commercial heating (including domestic heating)

 

4.8 Currently, heating buildings accounts for around a fifth of the UK’s emissions. To meet the government’s net zero target, emissions from the heating of buildings will need to be significantly reduced by 2050, which involves switching to greener forms of heating.

 

4.9 However, if applied to non-commercial heating, this would significantly increase the heating bills of households that use diesel, especially those in areas off the gas grid where there is no alternative, and including some which may be vulnerable.

 

4.10 The government therefore announced its intention not to change the entitlement to use red diesel for domestic heating. It is instead committed to cutting emissions in a way that ensures a just transition across society, with the most vulnerable protected. The government will continue to evaluate the trade-offs between cost, competitiveness, effects on consumers and impacts on the taxpayer when supporting the transition to greener forms of heating.

 

4.11 For the heating of buildings used for other non-commercial purposes, such as places of worship and townhalls, the government intends to continue to allow the use of red diesel because removing the entitlement for such purposes would have a negative impact on local communities. The precise definition of what counts as non-commercial purposes will be included in the legislation covering the tax changes.

 

4.12 It is the government’s intention that people whose primary, or often their only, place of residence is their boat (which has a permanent mooring), will remain entitled to use red diesel.

 

4.13 To support the transition to greener forms of heating and future-proof the UK’s infrastructure, the Plan for Jobs presented by the government yesterday announced it would be providing over £2 billion to support homeowners and landlords in making their homes more energy-efficient. The government also announced it would invest £1 billion over the next year in a Public Sector Decarbonisation Scheme that will offer grants to public sector bodies, including schools and hospitals, to fund both energy efficiency and low carbon heat upgrades.

 

4.14 At Budget 2020, the government announced that it would invest a further £270 million into Green Heat Networks and introduce a new support scheme for biomethane to increase the proportion of green gas in the grid.

 

4.15 The deployment of renewable and low carbon heat is currently supported by the Renewable Heat Incentive. The government is consulting on a new Clean Heat Grant scheme, to provide grants to help households and small businesses invest in heat pumps and biomass boilers, backed by £100 million of new Exchequer funding. Moreover, a Future Homes Standard, to be introduced by 2025, will require new build homes to be future-proofed with low carbon heating and world leading levels of energy efficiency

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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10 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

If you choose a condensing boiler you will amazed at how much less gas you will use.

 

Heating water to store it in a big tank is incredibly inefficient.

 

However you are correct they are a lot more complex than a traditional boiler so potentially a lot of things to go wrong and reduce the lifespan.

Installation cost being? Our condensing boiler cost £1800 all in.

 

A quick google reveals between £7k to £11k

 

Really?

Future proof though, plus I believe grants are available at the moment through chancellors grant system? why fit the past because thats what Gas is

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My boat was built with separate tanks. Just sayin like. A girl came tut campsite in an electric car yesterday and asked where she could charge it lol. I explained the vast majority of cars had ic engines and Sainsbury's was 3 miles up the road. Change is a coming. 

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1 hour ago, Stilllearning said:

Home insulation schemes would be a good way to go. The chancellor announced a small scheme this week, I think? What was it, £2 billion?, £5 billion? In Germany I believe it is €40 billion, here if you are lucky, the cost is €1 per house.

A client of mine built his own house here about 7 years ago, with a ground source heat pump. No idea of the set up costs, but as it was part of the building costs, sort of irrelevant. Annual bills are bout €125. That will repay itself fairly fast.

I was asking about fitting costs, and to convert an existing gas boiler heated system to such a system.

 

I would wager it's a lot less to fit such a system to a new build whilst the build is in progress.

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1 hour ago, Stilllearning said:

Home insulation schemes would be a good way to go. The chancellor announced a small scheme this week, I think? What was it, £2 billion?, £5 billion? In Germany I believe it is €40 billion, here if you are lucky, the cost is €1 per house.

A client of mine built his own house here about 7 years ago, with a ground source heat pump. No idea of the set up costs, but as it was part of the building costs, sort of irrelevant. Annual bills are bout €125. That will repay itself fairly fast.

David at the garage has air source heating in the large office works well and is cheap to run

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9 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Future proof though, plus I believe grants are available at the moment through chancellors grant system? why fit the past because thats what Gas is

Because like as usual most things 'in the past' they are affordable to most people, it's OK to spout 'go green' when you can afford it.

 

I chose to get the most efficient boiler I could afford and as a result have significantly cut my gas consumption which has not only 'helped' the planet but my wallet too.

 

I did consider an electric combi boiler but at the time they were not as well established as they are now.

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7 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

My boat was built with separate tanks. Just sayin like. A girl came tut campsite in an electric car yesterday and asked where she could charge it lol. I explained the vast majority of cars had ic engines and Sainsbury's was 3 miles up the road. Change is a coming. 

She can Tim it will slow charge from one of your sockets like you have at home

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16 minutes ago, peterboat said:

She can Tim it will slow charge from one of your sockets like you have at home

Some sites are now allowing charging using the mains sockets used for mains to caravan's and tents.

 

They charge of course which is only right.

 

This was after some electric car users cheekily just started plugging their vehicles into vacant sockets without paying, effectively 'stealing' electricity.

 

You just need one of these.

 

https://tinyurl.com/yaqtw9g6

 

 

 

 

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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1 hour ago, Stilllearning said:

Cyclists in the UK take their lives in their hands every time they go on a public road. In Belgium and France cyclists get treated with respect.

What I’ve seen of cyclists recently on the Towpath it is them that do not respect others.

Edited by PD1964
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24 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Because like as usual most things 'in the past' they are affordable to most people, it's OK to spout 'go green' when you can afford it.

 

I chose to get the most efficient boiler I could afford and as a result have significantly cut my gas consumption which has not only 'helped' the planet but my wallet too.

 

I did consider an electric combi boiler but at the time they were not as well established as they are now.

Ian from Tipos marine has a couple of these one at home one at the business, they dont make them anymore but his are on the register so along with his solar he can claim money back against electric production

 
 
image.png.ac6cf1473b3c444d5d5dddff43765ef7.png
 
WhisperGen: Heat and Power Production Combined. Runs on natural gas (grid-tied version) or diesel/biodiesel (off-grid version.) Looks like a dishwasher, but it ...
2018 - ‎Science
It is a natural gas boiler that produces hot water for domestic use and electricity A Stirling double-acting engine is coupled to an alternator. The WhisperGen unit ..

image.png

Edited by peterboat
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Air source heating and other heat pump methods of heating have the problem of overall costs. Look at your electric and gas bills and you will see that 1kWh of electric is about 3 times the price of 1kWh of gas. A heat pump produces about 3kW of heat for every 1kW of electric put into it, so the number of kWh required to heat a room or hot water is abour 1/3rd of the kWh of gas but the cost is about the same. So you finish up with a more complex piece of equipment (more to break) which costs more to build and install and no real difference in running costs. The best outcome of using heat pumps is that you are reducing the amount of CO2 you put into the atmosphere to heat your house/boat and maybe reducing the air temperature or water temperature at the same time.  But frozen roads and canals and rivers and lakes has human and wildlife implications as well, broken bones and thirsty birds etc. Just imagine what effect the 2000+ boats in London area taking a steady 5kW each from the canal water, how thick would the ice get.

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10 minutes ago, Detling said:

Air source heating and other heat pump methods of heating have the problem of overall costs. Look at your electric and gas bills and you will see that 1kWh of electric is about 3 times the price of 1kWh of gas. A heat pump produces about 3kW of heat for every 1kW of electric put into it, so the number of kWh required to heat a room or hot water is abour 1/3rd of the kWh of gas but the cost is about the same. So you finish up with a more complex piece of equipment (more to break) which costs more to build and install and no real difference in running costs. The best outcome of using heat pumps is that you are reducing the amount of CO2 you put into the atmosphere to heat your house/boat and maybe reducing the air temperature or water temperature at the same time.  But frozen roads and canals and rivers and lakes has human and wildlife implications as well, broken bones and thirsty birds etc. Just imagine what effect the 2000+ boats in London area taking a steady 5kW each from the canal water, how thick would the ice get.

 

Some of us don't have the 'luxury' of gas 'on tap'.

 

We have Calor, for which we pay a premium per litre / kg compared to 'mains gas' and we also have to pay £19 +VAT per month for the privilege of having one of their tanks in the garden (next to the sewage treatment plant - as we don't have mains sewerage either).

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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