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Worrying times for a new build


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With my potential build just around the corner and with the economy a bit pear shaped anybody got any ideas how I can protect my investments?  Any feelings on which builders are more likely to ride out the recovery better than others?  Anybody know of any good installment plans/insurance offered that at least mitigate some of my potential loss should the builder go belly-up?

 

PS - Buying 2nd hand and waiting till things recover is of course an option I suppose

Edited by JJPHG
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Presuming its a boat build?

 Only pay for materials that you definitely own and can retain possession of.

Pay nothing up front for labour.

Get a legally checked contract in force before anything else.

Only pay stage payment money over after your surveyor has inspected the work and established it is completed.

Research the financial state of the company, ensure that their assets exceed the value of your contract.

 

Cross your fingers, even most of the best boat builders have gone bust at some time, some more than once, or twice of thrice............

 

TD'

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You say just around the corner, then I take it you’ve got a builder and a start date, deposit paid, boat designed and all steam ahead??

  Or are you still at the planning stage, no builder booked, nothing paid for?

Edited by PD1964
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22 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

You say just around the corner, then I take it you’ve got a builder and a start date, deposit paid, boat designed and all steam ahead??

  Or are you still at the planning stage, no builder booked, nothing paid for?

All planned - no builder booked yet, which is why I'm floating my question.  Appreciate lead time for builder can be 1 to 2 years

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Just now, JJPHG said:

All planned - no builder booked yet, which is why I'm floating my question.  Appreciate lead time for builder can be 1 to 2 years

If a builder doesn't want or isn't happy to be tied down to a legally enforceable staged contract carefully detailing what you actually own ask them why?

 

Though I agree it might be a delicate subject to broach with a prospective builder who may think you don't trust them but it is at the end of the day your money.

 

The slight complication arises when a builder may have a few boats in build and then goes belly up, proving which one is yours might be difficult, especially if more claims come than boats are in build.

 

But I'm sure somebody on here will know how you actually can.

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29 minutes ago, JJPHG said:

All planned - no builder booked yet, which is why I'm floating my question.  Appreciate lead time for builder can be 1 to 2 years

I see your from Australia. So what are your plans, boat for a few month then return home for a few month, as this will determine the response to buy new build or secondhand.

  There was a couple from your way a few years ago who had major problems with the builder of their boat, just Google Narrow boat waiouru Ben Harp. They also did a Blog of their life aboard doing the canals.

  I honestly can’t see the point in having a boat built, you might not like it. Your better off buying second hand doing what you need to do and sell it afterwards. You will loose money if you buy new. Not as much if your sensible buying secondhand.

 

 

Edited by PD1964
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31 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I see your from Australia. So what are your plans, boat for a few month then return home for a few month, as this will determine the response to buy new build or secondhand.

  There was a couple from your way a few years ago who had major problems with the builder of their boat, just Google Narrow boat waiouru Ben Harp. They also did a Blog of their life aboard doing the canals.

  I honestly can’t see the point in having a boat built, you might not like it. Your better off buying second hand doing what you need to do and sell it afterwards. You will loose money if you buy new. Not as much if your sensible buying secondhand.

 

 

I personally find it very hard to disagree with this.

 

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3 hours ago, JJPHG said:

With my potential build just around the corner and with the economy a bit pear shaped anybody got any ideas how I can protect my investments?  Any feelings on which builders are more likely to ride out the recovery better than others?  Anybody know of any good installment plans/insurance offered that at least mitigate some of my potential loss should the builder go belly-up?

 

PS - Buying 2nd hand and waiting till things recover is of course an option I suppose

Why would anyone buy new? You have to wait for a year or two; you worry whether it will happen, (you are already worrying and you haven't even started yet); once you have it, there will be lots of things you want to add or change or finish off; and so on.

 

Buy second hand, almost new, and you'll get more boat for the same money, and it will have been sorted by the owner, (or you will have some money in the budget to sort it, and you get it a few weeks/days after you see it.

 

No brainer!!

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Yes, I had a boat built because at the time there just weren't that many second hand widebeams on the market and none with the window, hatch and door configuration and internal layout that I wanted. I had the boat 3 months after placing the order and paying the initial deposit. So for me it was very much a brainer. 

Edited by blackrose
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Buy good used - the worst boat I ever owned was a new build - you spend a season finding problems and sorting them before you can relax.

 

So 1-2 years waiting for a slot, 1 season building, and then 1 season sorting - who has 4 years of their life to waste AND whilst boats are generally pretty good at holding their value the first year is a bad year for depreciation.

 

Lots of boats around that are nearly new and well priced £60-80K unless you are looking for a top named builder.....

 

What about the Brinklow Sailaway at Norton Canes - the shell and engine alone are worth £70k.

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9 hours ago, PD1964 said:

I see your from Australia. So what are your plans, boat for a few month then return home for a few month, as this will determine the response to buy new build or secondhand.

  There was a couple from your way a few years ago who had major problems with the builder of their boat, just Google Narrow boat waiouru Ben Harp. They also did a Blog of their life aboard doing the canals.

  I honestly can’t see the point in having a boat built, you might not like it. Your better off buying second hand doing what you need to do and sell it afterwards. You will loose money if you buy new. Not as much if your sensible buying secondhand.

 

 

No - the plan is to return ‘home’ on retirement and CC.  If a close enough fit to our wish list turns up on the 2nd hand market then yes we would go down that route.  Havent seen one yet though (well by skype - my sister plods around looking for us).  So budgeting on new, accepting the lose.  Given that travel out of Australia is not an option/allowed for us until at least middle of next year the start if the build/purchase will probably slip

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5 minutes ago, Halsey said:

 

 

What about the Brinklow Sailaway at Norton Canes - the shell and engine alone are worth £70k.

It doesn't look as if they've cut any corners.

But what loophole in the regulations has enabled Brinklow to fit a Gardner 3LW in it?

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Maybe it was a 'Friday afternoon boat' but ...............................

 

A big brand new fat-boat arrived in our marina, ugly, but beautiful finish.

A couple of days later a van arrived and three guys got out, donned overalls and came down to the boat, they spent the day there and then disappeared, The next day a repeat performance, this went on all week.

The following week the Van turned up with 2 guys and the process started again.

 

I decided to have a chat with them and asked them what was happening.

They explained that they were a team who went around doing 'rectification work' to new builds, I asked if the sort of time they were spending on this boat was typical and they said NO.

 

This boat had far less problems that normally found as this was had been 'hand built and hand prepared' as a show boat for the Crick show.

 

Weeks later and many more visits and they never did solve the water leak in the engine hole, just gave up and said 'its rainwater and we cannot stop rainwater getting in'.

Two years later and the owner had enough and put it up for sale at 'offers over £200,000

 

 

Buy a boat that has all the problems resolved !

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1 minute ago, dave moore said:

The Brinklow sailaway Quail is gorgeous, I’ve been over it. I think “ remakes” are allowed vintage engines and I suspect this comes into that class.

Yes, I've heard that "replicas" of historic craft are allowed them. Then I've heard from someone else that they aren't. I wonder if it boils down to "Will anyone in authority notice?"

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44 minutes ago, Athy said:

It doesn't look as if they've cut any corners.

But what loophole in the regulations has enabled Brinklow to fit a Gardner 3LW in it?

If it is an 'exact copy, and uses the same materials as the original' the RCD allows for a vintage (non EU compliant) engine to be used.

 

I have posted the full RCD requirements previously.

 

This provision excludes craft designed before 1950 from the scope of the Directive. In addition this exclusion is also intended to exclude watercraft and/or types or classes of watercraft which were designed or developed before 1950 and of which replicas are individually constructed predominantly but not exclusively using the original materials. Builders of historical craft are able to build the same authentic bygone design, one craft after another. These craft are still unique and individual, when built using methods and materials consistent with the original design, and retain their aesthetic charm and characteristics. In this respect, predominantly means using the original material for both the hull and the deck, but allowing contemporary use of materials e.g. plywood instead of solid timber, laminated frames, modern adhesives, paints, sealant and fastenings. It is noted that some classes of craft that were designed before 1950 that were originally made exclusively of wood are now produced of modern plastics. These contemporary constructions are considered to fall within the scope of the Directive as the criteria regarding “predominantly with the original materials” is not fulfilled. Member States may have individual craft designs that are peculiar to that State or region thereof, e.g. “pattini” in Italy or “treehandiri” in Greece. These boats are generally: – of a design pre-dating 1950, – built in specialist yards of original materials. Of the two indents above, the first takes predominance. The Member State must be satisfied that such an exclusion from the Directive would not give carte blanche for series production.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If it is an 'exact copy, and uses the same materials as the original' the RCD allows for a vintage (non EU compliant) engine to be used.

 

I have posted the full RCD requirements previously.

Yes, I would think that "exact copy" = "replica". But the boat being "copied" would have had an open hold whereas this (admittedly very handsome) one has a cabin, so it can only be an exact copy it terms of the hull and the back cabin.

   I should add that I'm all in favour of ways being found round this petty and unnecessary regulation, which I think originated in Brussels.

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1 hour ago, JJPHG said:

No - the plan is to return ‘home’ on retirement and CC.  If a close enough fit to our wish list turns up on the 2nd hand market then yes we would go down that route.  Havent seen one yet though (well by skype - my sister plods around looking for us).  So budgeting on new, accepting the lose.  Given that travel out of Australia is not an option/allowed for us until at least middle of next year the start if the build/purchase will probably slip

Have you been on the canals or is it just a dream, what happens if you don’t like it? It’s not all what these Youtubers make out. There will be boats out there that will suit your needs secondhand, but it sounds like you want new. 

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After 3 years with our 20 year old boat, we wanted something newer. 2-5 years old. We looked hard for 3 months and there was just nothing on the market that fitted our requirements. We reluctantly decided to go for a new one which has turned out great. Ordered end of Feb and delivered 2 weeks ago. Lovely boat and really glad we went new! Ok we loose the VAT and a bit more but this is a long term boat.

We had concerns over the builder going bust with Colecraft saying the delivery was mid 2021!!!! We therefore went to Aqualine ( boats built in Poland). The are fully booked with fat boats but if you want a narrowboat they had an immediate slot. 12 weeks to build and deliver and it is quality. As the time is short there is less of an issue of going out of business. The contract gives you ownership of what you have paid for and we did our financial due diligence. You have access to their factory web site with images posted of the build process every week. At no stage did I feel worried that I could not see it being built. Poland didn't suffer as much from the virus as the U.K. did so little delay. 

The snagging list on the boat is short which is great compared with the last one we bought 15 years ago. Recommend the OP give Noel a call at Hanbury Wharf (New and used boats - Aqualine agents).

However, if this is to be your first boat, I would buy a £40-50K one first to find out what you really want in a boat. That way when the new one arrives it will be what you want.

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I bought my boat young (3 years??) the hull is 2006 the 1st registration is 2008 so 2.5 years later. most of that time was spent floating in the bankrupt buiders yard whilst the Official Reciever was taken to court to release the boat, the last payment being made the day before the bankruptcy. During that time kids threw stones at it, they made a nice noise as they hit and chipped the paint, water came through a leak in a side hatch and rotted the bottom of the door lining, the oak floor buckled due to being sat in water. The RCD had not been signed by the builder. I paid 50% of what the seller/owner had paid the yard, a few thousand on repairs, batteries RCD survey. I got an unused boat still with the plastic still on the loo and oven and hob for half price. The chap who had it made couldn't face looking at it after 18 months of legal hassle which helped cause his heart attack, so beware His son was selling the boat.  I did not buy direct but through a broker, and did not find out about the history till 6 months after I bought the boat.

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8 minutes ago, Detling said:

I bought my boat young (3 years??) the hull is 2006 the 1st registration is 2008 so 2.5 years later. most of that time was spent floating in the bankrupt buiders yard whilst the Official Reciever was taken to court to release the boat, the last payment being made the day before the bankruptcy. During that time kids threw stones at it, they made a nice noise as they hit and chipped the paint, water came through a leak in a side hatch and rotted the bottom of the door lining, the oak floor buckled due to being sat in water. The RCD had not been signed by the builder. I paid 50% of what the seller/owner had paid the yard, a few thousand on repairs, batteries RCD survey. I got an unused boat still with the plastic still on the loo and oven and hob for half price. The chap who had it made couldn't face looking at it after 18 months of legal hassle which helped cause his heart attack, so beware His son was selling the boat.  I did not buy direct but through a broker, and did not find out about the history till 6 months after I bought the boat.

I believe the current term is "Result!"

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12 hours ago, JJPHG said:

With my potential build just around the corner and with the economy a bit pear shaped anybody got any ideas how I can protect my investments?  Any feelings on which builders are more likely to ride out the recovery better than others?  Anybody know of any good installment plans/insurance offered that at least mitigate some of my potential loss should the builder go belly-up?

 

PS - Buying 2nd hand and waiting till things recover is of course an option I suppose

Buy second hand. It will probably be around 35% of the cost of a new boat, and if you have the time to look around, you will find some fabulous boats on the market.

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