12v or 24v

[AliceRosano]

Hey guys. I hope everyone is good. Myself and my partner are new in the canal community and we are in the process of buying a wide beam.

 

I have a question and I hope someone can help: if all the appliances work on 240v (Washing machine, phone, stereo, laptop..) Is it better to have a 240v fridge and keeping the inverter on 24/7? Or is it still better to have a 12v fridge? Pro and cons? Just trying to figure out the best way to go, as I read online 240v fridges have a lower energy consumption then 12v, and they are way cheaper.

 

Thank you so much in advance

[Alan de Enfield]

240v every time.

 

BUT - make sure that you have the electrical generating capacity to support a 'floating flat'. Unlike a house where you just 'click a switch' and the electricity is available, YOU are now the electric generating company, the electric storage company and the electric distribution company. You can only use what you have 'made'.

 

Understanding and living with 'self supplied' electricity is the hardest aspect for new boaters to come to grips with.

[ditchcrawler]

It depends on what inverter you have and what fridge you buy, if its cheapest fridge and cheapest inverter you will lose out, but if the fridge is A++ and the right inverter you may win but the margen will be small. Also how do you plan to use the boat, if its on shoreline for 11 months a year then 240 is the winner, if its never on shoreline then its marginal, If you have loads of solar or you cruise for say 4 hours a day then again probably 24 volt wins. 

[mrsmelly]

Mains equipment every time. Ensure u have a good quality inverter that uses very little power when switched on and sleeping. Some are terrible such as Stirling which use far too much power. Master volt are very good just for one. Mains equipment is humungously cheaper to buy and vastly more choice at the drop of a hat. Mains uses a very little more than 12 volt but that is far outweighed by other factors. 

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Mains equipment every time. Ensure u have a good quality inverter that uses very little power when switched on and sleeping. Some are terrible such as Stirling which use far too much power. Master volt are very good just for one. Mains equipment is humungously cheaper to buy and vastly more choice at the drop of a hat. Mains uses a very little more than 12 volt but that is far outweighed by other factors. 

Mine is a Mastervolt, its so good I have never got round to putting it into power save mode

[Jen-in-Wellies]

11 minutes ago, AliceRosano said:

Hey guys. I hope everyone is good. Myself and my partner are new in the canal community and we are in the process of buying a wide beam.

 

I have a question and I hope someone can help: if all the appliances work on 240v (Washing machine, phone, stereo, laptop..) Is it better to have a 240v fridge and keeping the inverter on 24/7? Or is it still better to have a 12v fridge? Pro and cons? Just trying to figure out the best way to go, as I read online 240v fridges have a lower energy consumption then 12v, and they are way cheaper.

 

Thank you so much in advance

Your topic title says "12V or 24V". I assume this is a typo, as you then go on to talk about 240V, but having the low voltage DC as a 24V system has some advantages. Lower voltage drop over long runs, less stress on inverters to take it up to 240V and so on. There isn't as much low voltage equipment around to run on 24V, but pumps, LED lights and so on are all available in 24V versions.

[peterboat]

12/24 volt every time for me, I have had the 240 fridge freezer and when I rejigged things it was the 12/24 route as it works better for me

[Onewheeler]

You won't get a straight answer but I have one boat with 12 V and one with 230 V. When the 12 V one dies (which it shows no sign of doing although 25 years old) it will be replaced with a 230 V one.

 

A decent inverter plus mains fridge is generally cheaper than a low voltage fridge. If cost is a key factor, there's not that much difference in energy consumption between A+ and A++ fridges but lots of £££.

 

It is worth checking what ambient temperature a mains fridge is designed for, there are several bands. Our mains fridge is on a boat in France and only used in warmer months, and was chosen for higher temperature ratings. Most, but not all, fridges have a wide band of suitability nowadays.

 

The key parameter is the quiescent current consumption of the invertor. Some go into "sleep" mode if there is no power demand, and it is said that they may be reluctant to start a fridge or low power lighting. I can't comment further, others doubtless will.

 

An invertor for a fridge needs to be rated at several times the running power to cope with starting transients. We run a small domestic fridge (about 70 W measured power consumption when the compressor is running) off a 1 kW continuous rated invertor with no problems, and could probably go lower.

[Alastair]

I would go for 240AC for nearly everything (not water pumps, as there are good, compact DC pumps).

 

Advantages:

Cheap replacements sourceable nearly anywhere.

Better quality for a lot of fittings (12v DC fittings are often poundshop quality, particularly lighting).

No worries about voltage drop over long cable runs.

No worries about voltage fluctuations blowing equipment (12V Battery DC voltage can vary by 3V)

[peterboat]

I have had a couple of inverters fail costing me dearly which is why I went the 12/24 volt route

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I have had a couple of inverters fail costing me dearly which is why I went the 12/24 volt route

A 12 volt fridge and a 12 volt freezer  costs as much as a master volt inverter 12 volt stuff is crap and there is virtually no choices of sizes. I always bin the toy 12 volt stuff and go fully mains backed up by a good internal combustion engine to charge batteries ?

[OldGoat]

For serious narrowboat use I suggest 24V DC supply is a better bet.

IME 24v stuff lasts longer and is often better made.

You do need a large battery bank - larger that is, than most boaters - A lightly loaded battery bank is a happy bank god wot. Traction type batteries complete the picture.

[peterboat]

7 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

A 12 volt fridge and a 12 volt freezer  costs as much as a master volt inverter 12 volt stuff is crap and there is virtually no choices of sizes. I always bin the toy 12 volt stuff and go fully mains backed up by a good internal combustion engine to charge batteries ?

On trent inverter caught fire fridge freezer defrosted days before new inverter under warranty arrived never had a problem with 12/24 volts fridge and now freezer for me it makes swnse

[LadyG]

49 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

A 12 volt fridge and a 12 volt freezer  costs as much as a master volt inverter 12 volt stuff is crap and there is virtually no choices of sizes. I always bin the toy 12 volt stuff and go fully mains backed up by a good internal combustion engine to charge batteries ?

How long do your batteries last?

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

How long do your batteries last?

Can't answer for Mrsmelly but my last ones only managed 7 years, but I did fail to top them up with water for a bit.

[Alan de Enfield]

Can't answer for Mrsmelly but my last ones only managed 6 years, but I did fail to top one of them up with water as I didn't realise it was developing an internal short.

[Rick-n-Jo]

31 minutes ago, LadyG said:

How long do your batteries last?

14 years and still going, but then it is a 48V 24 cell traction bank. 2 x 3000va Victron inverters, on 24/7. All domestic 230V equipment apart from pumps and some led lights and fans.

 

But......

5Kw 48V dc diesel gen to keep it all going when not on shore power. Runs for a couple of hours every day or two depending on usage. System not very tolerant of neglect, so would not recommend if not live aboard. If you want to have all the functionallity of a house afloat, this is the sort of (expensive) kit required. For just camping aboard, go low voltage + small inverter and expect to wear out leisure batteries every few years.

[mrsmelly]

49 minutes ago, LadyG said:

How long do your batteries last?

These are 3 years old but been on hook up for half that time. When ccing full time they usualy last two years which is brilliant. Batteries are cheap consumables like diesel. I fit sealed lead acid and never look at them again until its time to change them. I could probably eek a little longer but lifes too short so just replace them when they show signs of being pissed off. The best way to to make batteries last longer is to have 12 volt led lights. Hand pumped water, no equipment on board and live like Fred and Wilma, they then last ten years but you sure as hell pay for it in other ways 

[David HK]

On 10/07/2020 at 01:36, Rick-n-Jo said:

14 years and still going, but then it is a 48V 24 cell traction bank. 2 x 3000va Victron inverters, on 24/7. All domestic 230V equipment apart from pumps and some led lights and fans.

 

But......

5Kw 48V dc diesel gen to keep it all going when not on shore power. Runs for a couple of hours every day or two depending on usage. System not very tolerant of neglect, so would not recommend if not live aboard. If you want to have all the functionallity of a house afloat, this is the sort of (expensive) kit required. For just camping aboard, go low voltage + small inverter and expect to wear out leisure batteries every few years.

What you have is basically the same plan for our upcoming Hotel Boat  build, in part because would like an option of all electric propulsion down the line,  BUT ...............  why a DC generator and not AC?  In my plan I would use the Generator for large loads like water heating and kitchen and all this on an auto start load sensing system.  My experience of DC generators is they can be a pain after a while because of brush and commutator earth issues.  Thoughts?

[WotEver]

47 minutes ago, David HK said:

why a DC generator and not AC? 

I’m sure Rick will answer for himself but my guess would be ‘because it’s a 48V boat’. Everything runs from his traction batts - that’s his storage system. So when it requires topping up for a couple of hours then the genny can do so, and a lot faster than could be achieved from 230V. You don’t see many 5kW 48V chargers around. 

[David HK]

42 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I’m sure Rick will answer for himself but my guess would be ‘because it’s a 48V boat’. Everything runs from his traction batts - that’s his storage system. So when it requires topping up for a couple of hours then the genny can do so, and a lot faster than could be achieved from 230V. You don’t see many 5kW 48V chargers around. 

 

Well, I looked at his spec and he has two Victrons which if they are 3000va  I image might be inverter chargers.  Might even be Multiplus's.  Again, I would enjoy to get his understanding because, when you use leisure batteries they do not take kindly to ( for example ) 20 minutes  every day of high load discharge as might happen to a large immersion heater.  Then again for an oven for a couple of hours etc etc,  Now I am talking of a 230v AC conversion as he quotes and not dc specific devices although I imagine the discharge problem is similar.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, David HK said:

What you have is basically the same plan for our upcoming Hotel Boat  build, in part because would like an option of all electric propulsion down the line,  

A good plan, particularly as by 2025 all new build boats must be designed to be able to use zero emission power plants, and, 2035 no new boats will be allowed to be launched using non-zero emission engines, and from 2050 no boats using non-zero emission engines can be used in UK waters (Inland or coastal)

 

The Government 'Clean Maritime Pan 2050"

 

By 2025 we expect that:

i. All vessels operating in UK waters are maximising the use of energy efficiency options. All new vessels being ordered for use in UK waters are being designed with zero emission propulsion capability. Zero emission commercial vessels are in operation in UK waters.

ii. The UK is building clean maritime clusters focused on innovation and infrastructure associated with zero emission propulsion technologies, including bunkering of low or zero emission fuel.

 

By 2035 we expect that:

iii. The UK has built a number of clean maritime clusters. These combine infrastructure and innovation for the use of zero emission propulsion technologies. Low or zero emission marine fuel bunkering options are readily available across the UK.

iv. The UK Ship Register is known as a global leader in clean shipping and the UK is home to a world-leading zero emissions maritime sector, with:

a. a strong UK export industry

b. cutting-edge research and development activities

c. the global centre for investment, insurance and legal services related to clean maritime growth.

 

By 2050 we expect that :

Zero emission ships are commonplace globally. The UK has taken a proactive role in driving the transition to zero emission shipping in UK waters and is seen globally as a role model in this field, moving faster than other countries and faster than international standards. As a result, the UK has successfully captured a significant share of the economic, environmental and health benefits associated with this transition.”

[David HK]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A good plan, particularly as by 2025 all new build boats must be designed to be able to use zero emission power plants, and, 2035 no new boats will be allowed to be launched using non-zero emission engines, and from 2050 no boats using non-zero emission engines can be used in UK waters (Inland or coastal)

 

The Government 'Clean Maritime Pan 2050"

 

By 2025 we expect that:

i. All vessels operating in UK waters are maximising the use of energy efficiency options. All new vessels being ordered for use in UK waters are being designed with zero emission propulsion capability. Zero emission commercial vessels are in operation in UK waters.

ii. The UK is building clean maritime clusters focused on innovation and infrastructure associated with zero emission propulsion technologies, including bunkering of low or zero emission fuel.

 

By 2035 we expect that:

iii. The UK has built a number of clean maritime clusters. These combine infrastructure and innovation for the use of zero emission propulsion technologies. Low or zero emission marine fuel bunkering options are readily available across the UK.

iv. The UK Ship Register is known as a global leader in clean shipping and the UK is home to a world-leading zero emissions maritime sector, with:

a. a strong UK export industry

b. cutting-edge research and development activities

c. the global centre for investment, insurance and legal services related to clean maritime growth.

 

By 2050 we expect that :

Zero emission ships are commonplace globally. The UK has taken a proactive role in driving the transition to zero emission shipping in UK waters and is seen globally as a role model in this field, moving faster than other countries and faster than international standards. As a result, the UK has successfully captured a significant share of the economic, environmental and health benefits associated with this transition.”

Just to be clear, this is NOT legislation. It is just a plan. The use of the word "capability" " designed with"  "we expect that" etc etc  is fodder for the lobbyists and I would expect, much like diesel transport legislation to be published with hardly a likeness to the "plan".

 

FYI - Car makers make emission poison SUVs by buying emission credits from the likes of Tesla who put it on their balance sheet as income.  In this way they can meet the emission requirements of the countries they sell in.  All thanks to lobbyist scamming the system.

Edited August 31, 2020 by David HK

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, David HK said:

Just to be clear, this is NOT legislation. It is just a plan. The use of the word "capability" " designed with"  "we expect that" etc etc  is fodder for the lobbyists and I would expect, much like diesel transport legislation to be published with hardly a likeness to the "plan".

 

FYI - Car makers make emission poison SUVs by buying emission credits from the likes of Tesla who put it on their balance sheet as income.  In this way they can meet the emission requirements of the countries they sell in.  All thanks to lobbyist scamming the system.

The law has changed dramatically, car makers get heavily fined for every car they produce that produce more than 85 grams of CO2 per Km travelled.  They get credits for electric cars sold to offset the gross polluters, its one of the reasons why all the hybrids are being produced. Things are changing and that will include us,I have gone electric drive already charged by solar 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 hours ago, David HK said:

ust to be clear, this is NOT legislation. It is just a plan. The use of the word "capability" " designed with"  "we expect that" etc etc  is fodder for the lobbyists and I would expect, much like diesel transport legislation to be published with hardly a likeness to the "plan".

We will see as time goes by.

 

Yes it is not currently legislation but is the 'Route map' by which the Government intends to reach its targets agreed  with the IMO in 2018.

 

From www.Parliament.net

 

Extract from "Written Statement" :

Made by: Ms Nusrat Ghani (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Transport)

 

 

".........................By publishing the Clean Maritime Plan, the UK becomes one of the first countries since the agreement of this initial Strategy to publish a National Action Plan. The Plan is also the first cohesive national strategy to reduce domestic shipping emissions, as part of our journey to meeting net zero.

A global transition to clean shipping is taking place, presenting significant opportunities for economic growth. Research undertaken for the Government suggests the global market for maritime emission reduction technologies could reach £11 billion per year by 2050, potentially resulting in economic benefits to the UK of £510 million per year .........".