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Dunsley Tunnel on Staffs and Worcs - shortest and oldest navigable tunnel?


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38 minutes ago, Pluto said:

Is this a tunnel or a bridge? It is on the Rouge Canal, just to the west of Nanjing, and was built circa 1390AD. There were originally two 'bridges' of sandstone left when excavating the cutting, though one collapsed later.

Rouge Canal.jpg

Tunnel with bridge above

42 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Gerrard’s Cross railway tunnel. 300 odd metres long of arched construction and earth fill above. Notorious for having collapsed during construction. Built over a pre-existing railway.

 

 

Tunnel

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57 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

See the caption - Holten has written the definitive work of the 21st century on the Boyne - I am not fit to lace his boots. I also have the O'Neil report of 1970 - arguably the definitive work of the 20th century on the Boyne Navigation. He also refers to Scraggy Rock Arch. Often it's just known as Rock Arch or Scraggy Arch. By your definition it's a  5 metre long tunnel 

20200709_095852.jpg

20200709_095858.jpg

Yep, tunnel.

 

Interesting that a google search for "Scraggy Arch Boyne" yields nothing.  Yet a search for "Scabby Arch Boyne" yields a load of fishing related hits.  Clearly all the local anglers call it the scabby arch.  Local names like this are usually just unofficial names which arise out of use. 

 

A search for Rock Arch Boyne yields: https://www.geograph.ie/photo/50694

 

This looks like your arch, and the map shows it as the same arch the fisherfolk are referring to.  I'd say it's an example of the Gosty/Gorsty Hill thing, but the more common version would appear to be Scabby, or Rock, not Scraggy.  The way to be sure is to go into the nearest pub and ask there.

24 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

And therefore an exception to your definition in post #11.

No.

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38 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

No.

You said “a bridge is built over something”, “a tunnel is cut through something” and “length doesn’t come into it”. To me that says by your definition both Gerrards Cross, and as pointed out above Galton Tunnel, are bridges as they were created entirely by construction over the existing way and not cut through anything. Similarly the sub-surface lines (as opposed to the tube lines) of London Underground are not cut ‘through‘ anything and what’s above them is man made.

 

JP

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12 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

You said “a bridge is built over something”, “a tunnel is cut through something” and “length doesn’t come into it”. To me that says by your definition both Gerrards Cross, and as pointed out above Galton Tunnel, are bridges as they were created entirely by construction over the existing way and not cut through anything. Similarly the sub-surface lines (as opposed to the tube lines) of London Underground are not cut ‘through‘ anything and what’s above them is man made.

 

JP

If they were built without any tunnelling, then they're not tunnels.  I misunderstood your earlier description.  Length has nothing to do with it.  Of course, just because something isn't a tunnel, doesn't make it a bridge.  Things aren't defined according to what they're not.  Therefore Galton Tunnel, may be known as a tunnel but it is neither a tunnel nor a bridge.  We call it a tunnel because we don't yet have a sensible alternative word, other than vagaries like 'structure'.  I propose a renaming to the Galton Tube.  It is certainly tubular.

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2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

We call it a tunnel because we don't yet have a sensible alternative word, other than vagaries like 'structure'.  I propose a renaming to the Galton Tube.  It is certainly tubular.

Pipe? Culvert? 

 

A lot of new "bridges" on canal restoration schemes are technically box culverts as that describes their construction

 

I would give some latitude on Galton et al though - as they are below ground level, a trench was created, a pipe inserted and then the trench filled in - in the case of Galton there was around 150 years between these events though...

11 minutes ago, Philip said:

I believe the three tunnels at the top end of the Trent and Mersey (Preston Brook, Salterford and Barnton) are older. Think either Saltersford or Barnton is the oldest of the three.

That was what I had wondered, whether one on the Trent and Mersey was older

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1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

If they were built without any tunnelling, then they're not tunnels.  I misunderstood your earlier description.  Length has nothing to do with it.  Of course, just because something isn't a tunnel, doesn't make it a bridge.  Things aren't defined according to what they're not.  Therefore Galton Tunnel, may be known as a tunnel but it is neither a tunnel nor a bridge.  We call it a tunnel because we don't yet have a sensible alternative word, other than vagaries like 'structure'.  I propose a renaming to the Galton Tube.  It is certainly tubular.

You seem to want to define a tunnel as something constructed by ‘tunnelling’ as a verb. But that same logic would also make them bridges since ‘bridge’ is also a verb and a noun.
 

I think you have a simple notion that does not stand up in many real life situations. I’ll refer you back to the immersed tunnel on the A55 at Conwy. It doesn’t entirely fit your descriptions for either a bridge or a tunnel but society doesn’t struggle with what to call it and doesn’t need another name for it. Nor does the accountable highways authority. It’s a tunnel, to perhaps everyone bar you.
 

And as MP alluded the majority of ‘tunnelled’ structures are generally referred to as pipes or culverts. In infrastructure management a culvert is simply a bridge within a defined maximum diameter and is smaller than a ‘bridge’. The key issue being the lower consequence should it fail.

 

JP

 

 

Edited by Captain Pegg
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16 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

You seem to want to define a tunnel as something constructed by ‘tunnelling’ as a verb. But that same logic would also make them bridges since ‘bridge’ is also a verb and a noun.
 

I think you have a simple notion that does not stand up in many real life situations. I’ll refer you back to the immersed tunnel on the A55 at Conwy. It doesn’t entirely fit your descriptions for either a bridge or a tunnel but society doesn’t struggle with what to call it and doesn’t need another name for it. Nor does the accountable highways authority. It’s a tunnel, to perhaps everyone bar you.
 

And as MP alluded the majority of ‘tunnelled’ structures are generally referred to as pipes or culverts. In infrastructure management a culvert is simply a bridge within a defined maximum diameter and is smaller than a ‘bridge’. The key issue being the lower consequence should it fail.

 

JP

 

 

What about cut and fill, they are tunnels that weren't tunneled, I think half Barnton on the T&M was constructed like this from walking on the top of it

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5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What about cut and fill, they are tunnels that weren't tunneled, I think half Barnton on the T&M was constructed like this from walking on the top of it

I and others have already made that point. Tell it to Dora. I’m of the view that there are many forms of tunnel - and tunnelling techniques - and that there isn’t an absolute single definition between what constitutes a culvert, bridge, tunnel or viaduct. As a result I have concluded that what it’s custodian calls it is good enough for me, and I have pointed out why it matters to them.

 

JP

Edited by Captain Pegg
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Dunsley Tunnel, un-lined and 23 yards was an early canal tunnel, and was made on the early section as contractors cut south from the summit level. Yet I believe Armitage (or Hermitage) on the Trent & Mersey was earlier. It was on the section where the contractors started making the canal south to wards Fradley Heath. Armitage is longer and had a towpath. Cut through the rock, which provided the contractors with stone, this tunnel suffered subsidence issues from the nearby Lea Hall Colliery

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47 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Its just been on the news that Dudley Tunnel is the oldest one on the canals

The enabling act for the Dudley Canal wasn’t passed until 7 years after Dunsley was constructed. Wikipedia suggests there was tunnelling a year earlier and it’s possible the site had earlier tunnels for purposes other than through navigation but I suspect it’s just a bit of over enthusiastic journalism.


 

4 hours ago, Heartland said:

Dunsley Tunnel, un-lined and 23 yards was an early canal tunnel, and was made on the early section as contractors cut south from the summit level. Yet I believe Armitage (or Hermitage) on the Trent & Mersey was earlier. It was on the section where the contractors started making the canal south to wards Fradley Heath. Armitage is longer and had a towpath. Cut through the rock, which provided the contractors with stone, this tunnel suffered subsidence issues from the nearby Lea Hall Colliery

 

As for Armitage - I wondered about the T&M but overlooked it once had a tunnel at its more eastern end - it may have once been the oldest but it’s no longer on the system so it can’t claim the title.

 

JP

 

 

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Yes, the Armitage Tunnel is no longer a tunnel, but the initial statement on the "system" as it now is would place Dunsley as the oldest surviving tunnel. Dudley Canal tunnel, of course includes the original private tunnel for Lord Ward. although this was much later than Dunsley. However tunnel names still remain after the tunnel has been opened out   Armitage Tunnel in 2008-

 

 

814354.jpg

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39 minutes ago, Heartland said:

Yes, the Armitage Tunnel is no longer a tunnel, but the initial statement on the "system" as it now is would place Dunsley as the oldest surviving tunnel. Dudley Canal tunnel, of course includes the original private tunnel for Lord Ward. although this was much later than Dunsley. However tunnel names still remain after the tunnel has been opened out   Armitage Tunnel in 2008-

 

 

814354.jpg

 

Armitage Tunnel is the place where I received the biggest scare I have ever had on the cut.

 

We met a huge floating "island" of reeds, which got sucked under the boat and stopped the engine dead.

 

I opened the weedhatch and was removing the reeds from around the prop, when a frog jumped out of the weedhatch and onto the counter...

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On 09/07/2020 at 09:28, magpie patrick said:

Is there much fill between the roof of the "tunnel" and the surface above - if the roof and the surface above are the same structure then it's not a tunnel

Not much difference between the roof and the surface here. Is the District Line not in tunnel?

Victoria-Embankment.jpg

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On 09/07/2020 at 09:39, doratheexplorer said:

I suspect Broad Street is a tunnel.

Broad Street was built as a bridge - to carry Broad Street over the canal. It then got widened several times as the street was widened and to accommodate buildings both sides. The last extension was a very long extension on the west side built to accommodate the Unitarian Church of the Messiah and its schoolroom behind. The church and schoolroom were demolished in (I think) the late 70s. Most of the bridge extension was demolished when the  Brindley Place development was built.

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On 09/07/2020 at 13:46, ditchcrawler said:

What about cut and fill, they are tunnels that weren't tunneled, I think half Barnton on the T&M was constructed like this from walking on the top of it

 

Preston Brook was built as a bored tunnel. But in the 80s the middle collapsed, so they dug down from the top over the middle third or so, built a new concrete lining and then backfilled it. So is it now two tunnels with a bridge in between?

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8 hours ago, David Mack said:

Not much difference between the roof and the surface here. Is the District Line not in tunnel?

Victoria-Embankment.jpg

This is the problem of definition isn't it - I think the District Line falls into Churchill's hippopotamus category - we know one when we see it. 

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Returning to the subject of the earliest canal tunnel on the network, which is not the same as the earliest canal tunnel, terms such as cut and cover (for example Chirk Tunnel) or terms such as excavated tunnel (which are many) are just types of tunnel. Erecting buildings above waterways may create a tunnel. Broad Street (BCN) has been mentioned and there was another close by on the private Gibsons Arm where the canal passed under building and Cambridge Street before reaching the lock there. There is another man made tunnel in Wolverhampton where the canal was diverted through railway works that made the Joint Station (later High Level), the canal passes through a tunnel under the roadway and  goods sidings around the approach to the Joint Station (LNWR/ Shrewsbury & Birmingham Railway).

 

Then there are the temporary tunnels, such as the one recently mentioned at Stoke on the Trent and Mersey Canal.

 

There are the tunnels started but never finished such as on the Leominster Canal and the tunnels for waterways in mines. The Worsley mine tunnel for carrying coal as originally made could be classed as an early canal tunnel, but is now not on the network,. There is the deep mine tunnel at Ecton associated with copper mining and there is Brindley's tunnel at Wet Earth Colliery, which may not have carried  a boat, but was a canal, or was it a channel, as Mike Clarke puts it.

 

As to the Dunsley Tunnel there are records that trace the construction of the Staffordshire & Worcestershire Canal as contractors starting in the Compton/ Whightwick area and heading south to the Severn and north wards towards Tettenhall. Trent & Mersey construction details are harder to trace, but the committee did publish reports for the shareholders, which have survived in record offices and newspaper accounts. Armitage was on the first section made on the Trent & Mersey, whilst Dunsley was made as the contractors worked south on the 11 or so miles made to get to Dunsley. Contractors worked on different sections, and a search of the detailed notebooks for this work at Staffordshire Records might reveal the actual time the contractors worked on Dunsley and Cookley, some 4 miles further south. Yet both are early canal navigation tunnels. 

 

With Dunsley and Cookley the making of the tunnel was not the time when the canal was opened to traffic 250 years ago. That came later as sections were opened north from Stourport.  With the Trent & Mersey, the main  first step was the opening of the canal to Weston from Shugborough which happened 250 years ago in September.

 

These are important points on history to recall, and were it not for COVID 19, more could have been done to celebrate Staffordshire & Worcestershire Canal 250 and Trent & Mersey Canal 250 !

 

 

Edited by Heartland
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