The future of our canals?

[jetzi]

This thread is very sad to read!

 

The canals seem incredibly busy to me, plenty of boaters who should be paying their way. If anything, too many boaters in places...!

 

I guess the point is that the money raised from these boaters isn't nearly enough to cover the maintenance required. How much per annum would be required to maintain the canals to a good standard? How much would a boat license need to be for boaters to pay for the infrastructure?

 

I guess leisure and liveaboards simply don't generate the income that freight did.

 

On a more practical note, what can we as boaters do to help out with maintenance - I've pulled the odd bike or shopping trolley out the canal but I'd never have been so presumptuous as to do any towpath gardening. Is it legal and desirable for individual boaters to pull out saplings and plants in the bank like the one in the picture? Should we be avoiding overgrown areas so that maintenance teams can access? Put a blob of grease on the sluice cranks if they are looking dry?

 

Some ideas would be welcomed. I for one would be devastated if we lost any more canals in my lifetime and I'm only in my mid 30s. I think many people would be happy to do a little bit to contribute, which could all add up, but I'm not sure it is clear how we can help...

[Momac]

13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

They would have been better off by £5.5m if they had not done any fundraising activities.

If C&RT have not stopped fundraising they don't seem to be learning their lesson.

 

C&RT  have also  shot themselves in the foot by reducing the prompt payment discount. There is hardly any incentive to pay early . 

 

I think boaters pay plenty for license fees already and I suspect the numbers of people who go unlicensed is on the increase . The charges a perceived as excessive  for not a lot given in return . eg declining facilities , even waste bins not available where they once were and toilets past their serviceable life . 

 

 

 

 

[Rambling Boater]

26 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

This thread is very sad to read!  - but I'm not sure it is clear how we can help...

Less words, less focus on money. Yes, pull trolleys out of the cut if you can, it’s a start. 

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, MartynG said:

If C&RT have not stopped fundraising they don't seem to be learning their lesson.

 

C&RT  have also  shot themselves in the foot by reducing the prompt payment discount. There is hardly any incentive to pay early . 

 

I think boaters pay plenty for license fees already and I suspect the numbers of people who go unlicensed is on the increase . The charges a perceived as excessive  for not a lot given in return . eg declining facilities , even waste bins not available where they once were and toilets past their serviceable life . 

 

 

 

 

The £50m DEFRA grant is conditional on C&RT achieving annual targets for several KPI's.

 

The continued increase in the stated 'towpath visitor numbers' reaching the ridiculous 400,000,000 per annum is because this is one of the KPI's and if the number doesn't increase each year the grant is cut.

 

Another is the number of 'volunteer hours' must increase annually.

 

You may note that a number of infrastructure failures are now reported as being due to 'vandalism' or 'boater damage', could this be because 'unplanned closures' are another KPI which if not achieved (annual reduction) affect the grant. If the 'fault' is 'due to external causes' ie not down to lack of maintenance then they are not counted.

 

And so it goes on, there are about a dozen KPI's

[nikvah]

40 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

On a more practical note, what can we as boaters do to help out with maintenance - I've pulled the odd bike or shopping trolley out the canal but I'd never have been so presumptuous as to do any towpath gardening. Is it legal and desirable for individual boaters to pull out saplings and plants in the bank like the one in the picture? Should we be avoiding overgrown areas so that maintenance teams can access? Put a blob of grease on the sluice cranks if they are looking dry?

Yes to all your queries except the next to last - the towpath maintenance teams are largely unskilled contractors if their progress is impeded they leave it and this means larger weed beds and bigger saplings which become wildlife habitat and lost moorings. I have always picked rubbish and weeded my wild moorings so they are still there next time I visit

[Guest]

15 hours ago, robtheplod said:

I'm sticking my neck out here and think the canals best days are to come. As international travel becomes more troublesome and the world becomes less stable I think people will want to holiday in their own country. Canals offer a really good alternative where the journey is the holiday rather than just a part of it - no problems finding what to do each day. I have had several recent conversations with people who have never considered narrowboats/canals but as I describe/show videos (not in a anorak way!) now want to try it. The UK weather is also improving so when we have longer hot spells people may question queueing in the airport!  The UK canal system is USP of the UK so I can see international travel this way as foreigners come to try...

 

It always amazes me people want to fly to sandpits full of crowds when they haven't seen their own beautiful country yet.

Agreed, up to a point. 

 

You can see very much more of our wonderful country by not sticking to waterways.

 

Ask any motorhomer.

[peterboat]

57 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

This thread is very sad to read!

 

The canals seem incredibly busy to me, plenty of boaters who should be paying their way. If anything, too many boaters in places...!

 

I guess the point is that the money raised from these boaters isn't nearly enough to cover the maintenance required. How much per annum would be required to maintain the canals to a good standard? How much would a boat license need to be for boaters to pay for the infrastructure?

 

I guess leisure and liveaboards simply don't generate the income that freight did.

 

On a more practical note, what can we as boaters do to help out with maintenance - I've pulled the odd bike or shopping trolley out the canal but I'd never have been so presumptuous as to do any towpath gardening. Is it legal and desirable for individual boaters to pull out saplings and plants in the bank like the one in the picture? Should we be avoiding overgrown areas so that maintenance teams can access? Put a blob of grease on the sluice cranks if they are looking dry?

 

Some ideas would be welcomed. I for one would be devastated if we lost any more canals in my lifetime and I'm only in my mid 30s. I think many people would be happy to do a little bit to contribute, which could all add up, but I'm not sure it is clear how we can help...

We boaters couldn't afford to pay what it would cost to keep the waterways open, what we pay is just a drop in the cut! We need to help in any way we can, I have cleaned a mooring after the floods as nobody else but a another boater would think of it

[Guest]

Where is Barbara Castle when shes needed?

[Rambling Boater]

5 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Agreed, up to a point. 

 

You can see very much more of our wonderful country by not sticking to waterways.

 

Ask any motorhomer.

 

I chose boat over motorhome (camper van). 

 

I think either choice is going to become difficult soon. 
 

 

 

[Guest]

Just now, Rambling Boater said:

 

I chose boat over motorhome (camper van). 

 

I think either choice is going to become difficult soon. 
 

 

 

I just knew somebody would say this, however.

 

In the meantime you can go to many more parts of the UK by motorhome than you can by boat, this being the fundamental point I was making.

[Rambling Boater]

1 minute ago, The Happy Nomad said:

I just knew somebody would say this, however.

 

In the meantime you can go to many more parts of the UK by motorhome than you can by boat, this being the fundamental point I was making.

Absolutely, but I wonder why you are on a ‘CanalForum’?   
 

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Rambling Boater said:

Absolutely, but I wonder why you are on a ‘CanalForum’?   
 

 

Because I enjoy boating, and like many on here have a real interest in our canals and rivers.

 

My argument that factualy you can reach more parts of the UK in a motorhome than you can by boat doesnt preclude participation in this forum does it?

 

Because if you think that I would be really interested to hear why.

Edited July 6, 2020 by The Happy Nomad

[peterboat]

13 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

Because I enjoy boating, and like many on here have a real interest in our canals and rivers.

 

My argument that factualy you can reach more parts of the UK in a motorhome than you can by boat doesnt preclude participation in this forum does it?

 

Because if you think that I would be really interested to hear why.

I have both and agree with you,  I cant take my boat to Cornwall or Scotland, equally I cant take the camper to a wild mooring, both get my vote and fingers crossed that it will continue 

[JamesFrance]

The big difference between boat and motorhome is that you can stay overnight almost anywhere in a boat, but motorhomes are expected to find a campsite or get permission from the landowner.   Would the boat still appeal if you had to stay in a marina every night?

[robtheplod]

2 minutes ago, JamesFrance said:

The big difference between boat and motorhome is that you can stay overnight almost anywhere in a boat, but motorhomes are expected to find a campsite or get permission from the landowner.   Would the boat still appeal if you had to stay in a marina every night?

This is exactly why we got a boat over a motorhome.

[cuthound]

8 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

I just knew somebody would say this, however.

 

In the meantime you can go to many more parts of the UK by motorhome than you can by boat, this being the fundamental point I was making.

 

But the journey by boat is an adventure, whereas the journey by road is tedious. ?

[robtheplod]

Boats offer a unique perspective on the surroundings that you cant get from a road, plus at 4mph you can take it in...  Milton Keynes is lovely on the canal, not so nice on the road....   Plus you can park in the centre of a City no charge...

[Guest]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

But the journey by boat is an adventure, whereas the journey by road is tedious. ?

Well in part that is true yes definitely, but equally there are some fantastic scenic routes in the UK and a short hop across the channel opens up some fantastic routes for a road trip adventure.

[Rambling Boater]

10 hours ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 - doesnt preclude participation in this forum does it?

 

Because if you think that I would be really interested to hear why.

As far as I know, nobody is precluded from this forum.

 

I'm glad you enjoy both,  I would if I had a campervan but I find running a vehicle with the boat all of the time a bit of a pain.

 

I don't really see one better than the other, just different.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

11 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The £50m DEFRA grant is conditional on C&RT achieving annual targets for several KPI's.

 

The continued increase in the stated 'towpath visitor numbers' reaching the ridiculous 400,000,000 per annum is because this is one of the KPI's and if the number doesn't increase each year the grant is cut.

 

Another is the number of 'volunteer hours' must increase annually.

 

You may note that a number of infrastructure failures are now reported as being due to 'vandalism' or 'boater damage', could this be because 'unplanned closures' are another KPI which if not achieved (annual reduction) affect the grant. If the 'fault' is 'due to external causes' ie not down to lack of maintenance then they are not counted.

 

And so it goes on, there are about a dozen KPI's

The important thing about visitor numbers is that they have fallen from the 400,000,000 quoted some years ago. However, as CRT are now estimating by a different method look out for a claim of around 1,000,000,000 in the next annual report.

CRT has failed to publish information required by its grant agreement this year. This 'publication data' must be published by 1 July at the latest.

 

With regard to infrastructure failures, a couple of years ago I wrote a program that analysed CRT's 'stoppage database'. In 2017/18 we suffered 2482 days of unplanned closures. CRT's KPI (which excludes stoppages the Trust deems to be outside its control) gives a figure of 490 days. 

The 'outside our control' was allowing the trust to under report days lost by 80%.

One might have expected various boating organisations to pick up on this as it is an indicator of the general condition of the waterways.

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Rambling Boater]

Does anyone know what CRT's mission statement is? I couidn't find one.

 

A few years back I was asked at a CRT meeting why I was a bit negative, I said that I found CRT's lack of communication about their future plans was frustrating.

 

I still have no clue as to CRT's future intentions and I find that concerning.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Rambling Boater said:

As far as I know, nobody is precluded from this forum.

 

I'm glad you enjoy both,  I would if I had a campervan but I find running a vehicle with the boat all of the time a bit of a pain.

 

I don't really see one better than the other, just different.

Similarly I believe there is no 'better' option.

 

And for absolute clarity I wasn't saying there was, I was simply saying that to see most of the UK you simply cannot do that in a boat. That is just a fact. But equally entering a town or city by boat will give a completely different perspective to the one you get by driving in.

 

Boating also gives the opportunity to stop in some very remote spots in the countryside which is difficult to impossible to legally do in the UK in a motorhome and becoming increasingly so.

Edited July 7, 2020 by The Happy Nomad

[Allan(nb Albert)]

12 minutes ago, Rambling Boater said:

Does anyone know what CRT's mission statement is? I couidn't find one.

 

A few years back I was asked at a CRT meeting why I was a bit negative, I said that I found CRT's lack of communication about their future plans was frustrating.

 

I still have no clue as to CRT's future intentions and I find that concerning.

CRT is a charity. Charity's mission statements are more properly called 'charitable objects'. These are contained in its articles of association.

 

Quote

2. Objects The Trust’s objects are:

 

2.1 to preserve, protect, operate and manage Inland Waterways for public benefit:

• 2.1.1 for navigation;
• 2.1.2 for walking on towpaths; and
• 2.1.3 for recreation or other leisure-time pursuits of the public in the interest of their health and social welfare;

 

2.2 to protect and conserve for public benefit sites, objects and buildings of archaeological, architectural, engineering or historic interest on, in the vicinity of, or otherwise associated with Inland Waterways;

 

2.3 to further for the public benefit the conservation protection and improvement of the natural environment and landscape of Inland Waterways;

 

2.4 to promote, facilitate, undertake and assist in, for public benefit, the restoration and improvement of Inland Waterways;

 

2.5 to promote and facilitate for public benefit awareness, learning and education about Inland Waterways, their history, development, use, operation and cultural heritage by all appropriate means including the provision of museums;

 

2.6 to promote sustainable development in the vicinity of any Inland Waterway for the benefit of the public, in particular by:

 

• 2.6.1 the improvement of the conditions of life in socially and economically disadvantaged communities in such vicinity; and 
• 2.6.2 the promotion of sustainable means of achieving economic growth and regeneration and the prudent use of natural resources; and

2.7 to further any purpose which is exclusively charitable under the law of England and Wales connected with Inland Waterways; provided that in each case where the Trust undertakes work in relation to property which it does not own or hold in trust, any private benefit to the owner of the property is merely incidental.

To deliver the above -

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/original/9347-living-waterways-transform-places-and-enrich-lives-our-10-year-strategy.pdf
 

and various Waterway Partnership plans (now abandoned).



 

 

[Rambling Boater]

5 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

CRT is a charity. Charity's mission statements are more properly called 'charitable objects'. These are contained in its articles of association.

 

To deliver the above -

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/original/9347-living-waterways-transform-places-and-enrich-lives-our-10-year-strategy.pdf
 

and various Waterway Partnership plans (now abandoned).



 

 

Thanks for that Allan, you obviously know where to look.

 

 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

2 minutes ago, Rambling Boater said:

Thanks for that Allan, you obviously know where to look.

 

 

For the record, it was this document that slipped CRT's ambition to have 100,000 Friends by 2022 to 2025 (see page 17).

I would expect the 2019/20 Annual Report to show less than 31,000 against a target of 35,000.